Well folks, I think we're entering a new phase of 950 debate. We're starting to move away from the months of conjecture and getting into the years of actual, hands-on Q&A that will follow now that the 950 is shipping in volume. Remote control questions, crossover setting questions, DSP mode questions, and likely lots of other questions should start slowly appearing around here.

Oh, and I'm looking forward to an unofficial review post from Matthew now that his unit finally arrived! Maybe after a weekend of showing it off and playing with it? I'll probably be cooking up a short review update myself next week. (Got to try to be at least a little on topic...)

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gonk,

I think you're right. It only makes sense. Now that they're moving out the door at a decent rate and we know the feature set is fixed (for better or for worse), we should be hearing more owner posts and less would-be owner posts.

There are a number of things I plan to try that I haven't heard other people doing yet. I have a DAT deck with coaxial digital I/O, and a minidisc with optical digitial I/O. I haven't heard much talk of people using the unit to do any digital recording, so I might drag the 950 up to my studio and hook up the MD and the DAT and see how that goes.

I also might do a little bit of signal generator and oscilloscope work to see if I can learn anything about the analog 5.1 bypass stuff beyond what we have been told. If I get really brave (and feel like spending the time pulling the 950 out - man, that's a lot of work..), maybe I'll do an "under the hood critique" series like I did for the Audiotron. I hate voiding my warranty, but the engineer in me can't help but popping the top on new gear early in its life.

Another experiment I want to try, once my bipolar surrounds arrive, is to see if I can still manage to get 6.1 or 7.1 to sound decent in my living room. I have a depth-limited room, and my couch with the sweet spot is right up on the back wall. The room is too small to move the couch into the room, not to mention the front projection screen would be even more ridiculously large sitting closer. I'm wondering if putting my crappy old Minimus 7's up with my projector shelf in the rear center of the room, aimed outwards towards the L and R walls, will sound OK. Alternately, putting them on the L and R walls in the very rear of the room (with my real surrounds about 1/2 way or so from front to rear) might be an option. It's far from ideal, but I have no other way of getting that rear surround channel in my current room. I won't be doing any DVD-Audio or SACD listening until I move to someplace with a better room, so it will be just movie effects for now.

I guess the only way to know is give it a shot. If it sounds crappy, that's worth knowing at least.

People may be wondering why I went for the 950 when my room is really only ideal for a 5.1 setup. I really wanted to get separates (I haven't owned a receiver for a good 10 years - just separates), and I figured I could grow into the 950. After all, it's still a really good deal for a new 5.1 surround processor, even ignoring the 6.1/7.1 capability!

OK, here are some [brief] first impressions, with more to follow later:

This thing ROCKS! I cannot say that enough. I am SO glad now, that I waited for it. I haven't tried out all of its features yet, and I'm still learning to work my way around it, but so far, so good.

I'll first say that I have a 5.1, not 7.1, system at this time. I'm looking to upgrade to 7.1 in about a year or so, so until then I won't be able to comment on the Cirrus extra surround, DD-EX, or DTS-ES algorithms. Shame, too, because I'd really like to try them out.

One of the first tests I did was "The Sopranos" on VHS (boxed set, first season, episode seven). Whoah! DPL-II is definitely a BIG improvement on DPL. I didn't tinker with the DPL settings much, but I did try both Music and Cinema mode. It sounds odd, but I think I preferred Music mode slightly. It definitely sounded better on scenes where music was playing. I also tried DTS Neo:6, in both modes, and it worked pretty well.

I tried playing a few CDs, in various modes. I actually think I prefer straight stereo for a lot of CDs. My CD player has both an analog and a digitial out, and a DAC that I like very much. I had trouble, though, distinguishing a difference between using tht 950's DAC and the pass through mode. Both sounded better than using the analog input without bypass mode. I haven't gone looking for doubled bass yet, and if it was there, I didn't notice it. My subwoofer is not terribly intrusive, though.

I tried different surround modes, again, and though DTS Neo:6 was definitely better than DPL, I think I still preferred DPL-II to DTS Neo:6. I also liked the 5 channel stereo mode. Sounded much better than I thought it would. It, by far, is the most enveloping.

Next, it was time for some DTS DVDs. The Eagles, of course, sounded awesome. I think the last track, the audio-only "bonus" track, is my favorite. I also played some BeeGees. Not quite as good a mix, I don't think, but the visuals are more interesting. I think some of their studio CDs sound a lot better. Finally, it was Alice Cooper's "Brutally Live". This one simply floored me. I happen to like Alice Cooper a lot, and this disk has it all: DD 2.0, DD 5.0, and DTS 5.0 soundtracks, multiple camera angles, 16:9 aspect ratio, LOTS and lots of cool stage effects, and a great performance from Alice. Even though it was late at night, and I didn't have it cranked, and I know I should have gone to bed, I couldn't turn it off. I can't wait to crank it today.

Today I took my lunch hour at home and sat on the couch eating a sandwich and listening to FM radio. I never knew, before, that FM could be a Hi-Fi meduim. Some stations weren't so great, but some sounded as good as a CD. I tried all the surround modes, and by and far DPL-II Music blew them all away. This surprised me, because the day before I'd only slightly preferred it to the others.

DPL ranked at the bottom of the list, followed by the two DTS Neo:6 modes. Then comes 5 Stereo, followed by Stereo, and the two DPL-II modes. 5 Stereo sounded surprisingly good, but I preferred the DPL-II. Comparitively, 5 Stereo wraps you in a blanket of sound (I think it has the highest enveloping effect of all the modes) but doesn't really "place" any of the instruments anywhere. They're all coming at you from all directions. Whereas DPL-II can actually place the lead vocalist on the center channel and the backup vocalists on the surround channels! I have no idea how it does that. The effect was simply breathtaking.

As far as the noise floor goes, I simply could not hear it, even with the volume cranked on a dead input. The computer equipment a few rooms away drowns out any hiss that may come from this thing, and the fans really aren't that loud since they're some distance away.

I like the layout of the remote, but it did give me a few troubles. For one, its action seems to be a bit spotty. Some buttons take two or three tries to register, and sometimes I actually had to walk around and aim it at the 950 at different angles to get it to work. It seems slightly better today than it did yesterday, though, if that's possible. I also couldn't program any of my devices into it. I followed the procedure in the manual, tried ALL the codes listed for my device type and brand, and the various devices never powered off. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I may try to "teach" it later from my current remote. I'm also curious that the directional pad doubles as the transport controls. This will work fine for my TV and my VCR, but not for my DVD player, as it has a separate directional pad and transport controls. But I didn't get it to work at ALL for the DVD player yet, so I don't really know.

Well, that's my two cents for now. I'm going to go back and listen to my Creed CD again.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I'm going to try an experiment tonight: Putting the surround speakers in front of me halfway between the mains and my listening position and the back surrounds behind me at an elevation. Then diddle with the delay setting.

As I've sampled several film tracks over the past three days, I've thought that this might create a more dynamic sound field that would immerse you in the surround effects.

If it works, it could be part of a solution for those who want 7.1 but lack the space in the rear.

We shall see ...

I worried about this as well, as it was the one real negative I've read about the 9000 remote. My solution was the teach the remote the navigation commands for the directional pad and then teach the transport commands to some of the buttons about the macro buttons. It sounds really strange, but it works out pretty well for me.

The programming problem with the remote sounds odd. I did struggle some figuring out how to get punch-through to work (mis-understood the manual for some reason -- it made perfect sense when I re-read it a week later). If you have problems again later, you might try posting what you're doing to see if anybody can spot a mistake.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Mathew,

Could you tell us the xovers you are using and each speakers low freq -3dB spec?

Mains, -3dB at 28Hz, crossed over at 40Hz
Center, -3dB at 50Hz, crossed over at 60Hz
Surrounds, -3dB at 60Hz, crossed over at 80Hz

EDIT: These are the Axiom Epic 80 setup if anybody is curious. I happen to think they sound particularly nice and have gone on at length about them on the speaker forum.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

[This message has been edited by Matthew Hill (edited May 05, 2002).]

Got my 950 last night.

Point of reference -this is replacing a Denon AVR-1800 rec. ~3yrs. old and cost $400 at the time.
I have been using an Audiosource Amp 3 to power dual DIY sonotube/Shive subs, an Audiosource Amp 7 (Tripath based digital amp) to power the mains, and the Denon's internal amps to power the surrounds (no preout for surrounds).

First off... No brainer... sound-wise this thing blows away the Denon in every way. Then again, I had no doubts of that before I got it -as I'm sure everyone else would imagine also.

Build quality... obviously the 'guts' in this thing are great. Power supply, boards, chips, etc...
Outside, I've heard this thing's case called 'built like a tank'... uh, no, it's built like a typical reviever.

It's face doesn't look as good as the Denon's, I wish I could turn the display off like I can on my Denon, and the 950's case seems exactly the same thickness that the Denon's.
The 950's case is stronger though due to it not having air venting across the entire top and sides like the Denon.

If this sounds too critical, let me say I don't feel it's case needs to be any better than it is, just relating what I think of it.

The remote... Well, w/ the batteries on the top end (opposite of my Denon's), I keep grabing it facing the wrong way! No flaw there though, just funny!

I was hoping it would be able to learn all my other remotes and I could shelve them. Still not finished working on that, but it seems like, sadly, I won't be able to do that.

Even though it's more advanced than the non-learning universal model the Denon came with, it seems to not control much more than the Denon does, and seems worst of all, it's worse at controlling my Pannie RP-56 DVD player.

I can put in the code to work the DVD's menu system, OR I can teach the remote how to work the play/stop/pause 'CD player type' functions, but looks like not BOTH unless I use up the macros (which I guess I will). My Denon can toggle between the two full sets of controls.

I have a tiny remote to control my wall sconces. ON/OFF button, and dim up/down buttons. I can teach the remote the dim up/down function, but it won't learn the on/off button!? No idea why, but even though the button turns green to say 'It DID learn it', it WON'T accept the save of it?

I also don't like when switching to control diff components, the Outlaw switches inputs, and has to re-aquire the audio signal. The Denon remote didn't have that problem because it had control buttons at the top like the 950, but ALSO input mode buttons at the botton. Much better IMO.

Maybe I missed something in the manual about improving this switching problem, but I did't really look at the manual beyond how you program in the remote codes and learn codes.
"I don't need no stinking manual!"

The main point (though not the only point) is how it sounds though right?

After about 5 min. to set this up (super easy through either the 950's face, or onscreen display) I played some CD tracks that I know inside and out. Tori Amos, Pink Floyd, The Police, ect...

Note- I didn't use an SPL meter of calibrate any certain vol to 75db. I just set my main speakers (Newform Research 645's) to 0db and through test tones set surrounds (NR 630's) to level match, and also guessed on the sub level. Set the distances , and 80Hz x-overs. My Newform's typically go much lower than that, but they're so far away from the walls ~6', that the bass is greatly reduced (other than bass for reinforcement, it's the optimal placement otherwise), and it only improves the midrange by taking out as much bass from them as I can get away with.

I don't like center speakers, and don't have or like side dipole surrounds. I may get a rear center in the future though.

The Denon never said in the manual what the 'small' x-over was, but I assumed ~80Hz. I could turn off my main amp and still hear most of the song coming through the subs. I thought this was just a slow 1st order x-over slope, but I can't really say.

With the 950 set to 80Hz, there's only bass. Almost nothing above that. A HUGE diff.

Overall the full range sound of stereo+subs is WORLDS better than the Denon used as a preamp (which was already much better than the Denon used as an all in one reciever).

Bass is tremendously tighter. The midrange is far more detailed, and the highs are much more extended.
The sound is far better even than when I ran my DVD player directly into my main amp (which has gain controls) and while direct-to-amp was a hassle to set up, was much better itself than running through the Denon -except I couldn't run my subs in that setup.

With movies the Denon always seemed to crackle with lots of movie dialouge. This was the same at low volumes too, so it wasn't clipping, or at least not what I would think. I thought DD, and DTS data streams are pretty bulletproof as they pass along dig. cables (I'm using Outlaw's optical -which sounds no diff. than my Acoustic Research opt. cable), so I figrued the Denon was somehow damaging the audio once it was decoded, and have always hated this problem I've been living with.

With the 950, that prob. is solved. Very clean, and accurate sounding. This is the main reason for getting this sucker for me, and it does what I wanted it to do!

I can't comment on the PL2 very much. Seems cool. Should be nice for TV. Probably games too.
I noticed it has the same 'swirly noise' though that original PL does when you put your ears close to the rear speakers. This doesn't show up when you're sitting in a normal spot though, so I'm sure it'll be fine. Not so far the thrilling element some others feel it is.

Some people write reviews on this thing and mention nothing else in their system. The 950 is only a piece of a chain, and no matter how good you call the 950, it can't EVER be anything more than that, so what it's mated to like any other component make a huge diff. in a review.

I think now that I have the 950, that my sound is still a little flat and processed sounding (in audiophile nitpicking terms -not blatant at all), and I'd like to get a new main amp to hear just how far I can take this sound quality from the 950 to my Newform Research and soon to be SVS of Hsu sub.

Overall... worth the $900 for sure. Still not sure just how good it is though, but so far at least VERY GOOD.

Azryan,

Of all the reviews I've read, yours is the most convincing. When you hear glowing reviews from all the Outlaw Cheerleaders that prolifically post on the forums, their praise for the product is a forgone conclusion. But now that some of the skeptics are posting positive reviews, the waters feel safer. Good thing since I just got my letter from Outlaw.

I'll keep reading reviews till the last of my 7 days though. Did you hear any of the hum problems others are reporting?

HT crazed,

"Outlaw Cheerleaders?" Care to be more specific with some facts? Or is this the "same old, same old" that has poluted threads on other forums?

Just curious, because this is the first off-topic comment that I've read here. If you are saying that hearing good reports from what some consider "Outlaw Bashers" is a good sign because that means more to you, then, fine. I totally understand and agree with you. But if you are saying that people who give positive comments about a product after thorough analysis have to be categorized "Cheerleaders" and all that this remark implies, then you are treading on very shaky ground, IMHO.

??

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RAF

My HT (latest update 04/17/02) Now includes Outlaw 950 and Outlaw 755

[This message has been edited by Robert A Fowkes (edited May 05, 2002).]