I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread started that focuses on 950 reviews along with comments and questions about such reviews. I know there is a good review already started by Jeffrey Mercado and another short one but that post kind of got off on some different tangents. If everyone just wants to post their own review under a separate heading then that is fine too or if we just want to stay with Jeffrey Mercado as the official one.
Scott, please delete this post if you feel it is not necessary. I look forward to all the reviews and I hope to post my review this weekend.

------------------


[This message has been edited by mdanderson (edited May 06, 2002).]

I have only watched one movie on my 950/770 combo so far. Episode 1 while not the best movie has good sound as you guys are aware. I will keep this relatively short. Just to tell you guys what my HT currently consists of RP51 optical digital out to the 950/770. Progressive scan to my Hitachi 55P9701 HD widescreen. Boston Acoustic VR975 towers, BA VR920 Center, System 10k (Micro100x ) for all surrounds.
The 950 locked on to and detected the signal quickly. It decoded sound very well. Timing is not an issue. I was impressed. I could hear everything and even some things I thought I hadn't heard before . The 770 has GOBS of power, I cannot stress this enough. I didn't get it all hooked up til about 10 at night so I only stressed the neighbors for about 90 minutes . I will probably try 5th Element Superbit next.

Enjoying my 950/770

------------------
Stott

First Impressions of the Random Kind
====================================

- The unit shipped double-boxed, but it had definitely been opened and re-taped. Some of the packing tape had come off. No big deal, since it was only in transit overnight, but the Outlaws might want to have their shipping department do a better job taping.

- The unit has an ungrounded detachable power cord. I was surprised (in a positive way), as I thought it was grounded and I'd have more ground loop issues to sort through.

- The jacks on the rear of the unit are gold plated. The photos had led me to believe they were nickel plated. As others have noted, the jacks are just a hair too close - the Outlaw cables slightly touch when you plug a L-R pair of them in. I didn't feel like I was stressing them too much when plugging them in, though.

- The unit weighs in decently. It is far more attractive than I thought it would be, and feels like a nice piece of gear. The rubber volume knob is slightly cheesy looking, but it feels nice when using it. The buttons stick out further from the face of the panel than I expected them to, but this is fine too. The 950 is a handsome unit, even with the green button and wacky logo.

- As someone else pointed out, they supply Duracell Ultra batteries with the remote. This is a plus. The remote itself leaves something to be desired in a few ways, but it's pretty good for a pack-in remote. First of all, it's awkward in the hand. The batteries are towards the front of the remote, making it feel like it's continually going to tip forward out of my hand. Oddly enough, it feels comfortable to me holding it upside down. Secondly, the learning feature is nowhere near 100% reliable. It took several tries to get it to learn some keys on my Audiotron remote. Once they "took," though, they worked fine. (EDIT: Gonk suggests placing both remotes on a flat surface first, and making sure you don't move either remote. I also found that holding down keys on your original remote until the 950's remote blinks green worked better than simply tapping the keys on your original remote.) Lastly, the remote stacks up play/pause/ff/rew on top of the standard menu navigation arrows. This is seriously irritating, but I'm sure I'll figure out a workaround. (EDIT: One problem I thought the remote had was lack of a volume/mute punch-through feature, but RAF and Gonk both set me straight - see pg. 39 of the manual).

- The OSD menu system is really easy to use. Navigation is a snap; drilling in and out of the menus is quite easy. However, I really find it disappointing that there is no option to completely turn off the OSD for showing volume/acquired signals, etc. The best you can do is turn it down to 3 seconds.

- The main trigger output works great. It triggers my DIY triggerable power strip properly. Not much to report here.



[This message has been edited by Prefect (edited May 03, 2002).]

So How's It Sound?!
===================

My HT audio system is in a bit of flux, but I have much of my final gear. My front soundstage consists of a pair of PSB Stratus Silver i's on the L and R, and a PSB Stratus C6 in the center. These are driven by a Carver M500 and a slightly newer Carver M500t, both 250W stereo amps. At present I don't have my real surround speakers (PSB Image 10S - should be here next week), so I've got a pair of old Radio Shack Minimus 7's connected, driven with a Carver PM120 stereo 60W semi-pro amp. At present I have no subwoofer, but I'm probably going to DIY a Titan soon.

For sources at present I have an Onkyo DVD player, a Voyetra Audiotron, and an old Sony CD changer all connected optically. A stereo VCR gets me analog audio from VHS tapes and cable television.

When I first fired up a CD in stereo mode right after getting it hooked up, I have to say that I was underwhelmed. I had set my mains for large and turned off the subwoofer and other channels. Something just didn't seem right on my first test CD (Elysian Fields, _Bleed Your Cedar_). I'm not sure what it was. I got up to get a glass of water, came back as it was switching tracks, and all of a sudden it clicked. It sounded good!

The 2-channel sound using the 950 as a DAC compared very favorably to my old Carver C-1 stereo preamp and my DVD player's internal DAC. I've listened to the CD that I mentioned on many systems, and my HT system with the 950 was really keeping up well. Deep, beautiful bass. Female vocals flowing exquisitely. Snare brushes drifting from a wide soundstage in front of me. Very nice. Not quite the same level of "hairs on the back of my neck tingling" that I've had with the system in my music studio, but this was pleasing in a different way.

I then tried my Audiotron and some MP3s out of my extensive collection. Using the internal 950 DACs is a huge improvement over the compromised internal DACs in the Audiotron. Well-encoded MP3s sounded great. Not quite CD quality, but very good. The only minor problem I noticed here were occasional re-acquisitions of the signal (popups on the OSD). Hopefully this won't be a big problem in practice.

Next I watched some cable TV in DPLII-C mode. _Forrest Gump_ was playing on one of the pay channels. The Vietnam scenes were coming alive. Dialog seemed to steer properly to the center channel, with music and effects routing to left and right. Surround was subtle, but seemed appropriate most of the time. Very neat. Worlds better than ProLogic. I did some channel surfing - some programs sounded a little weird with the surround content (surround sound for news?).

Lastly, I tried several different DVDs. Among them: _Run Lola Run_, _Crouching Tiger_ (non-superbit), _Apocalypse Now_ (non-redux), _Quills_, and _Chicken Run_. I used the Dolby Digital 5.1 mode for all discs tested. Even with my limited, temporary setup - it sounds great. _Chicken Run_ is almost over, and it's sounded great the whole time. Even my girlfriend has been impressed! I'll get more detailed with the 5.1 sound as I get my system squared away.

So that's it for now - I'll post more detail once I get some more time in on the system.

In short? It was worth the wait, even with the few problems I've encountered so far. I'm sure I'll be able to devise some workarounds once I familiarize myself with the system more.

Now I think it's time for bed.

Prefect,

There is a volume punch through feature on the remote. RTFM, page 39. Like you said, the remote is functional, but I still use my Pronto to control everything important.

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 04/17/02) Now includes Outlaw 950 and Outlaw 755

Ok, if you are into long incoherent ravings from a sleep deprived madman you can check out my review here http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?postid=660295#post660295

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited May 03, 2002).]

Prefect

I'll add in some remote review comments.

As RAF noted, there is a volume punch-through feature. You will need to enable it for each device you want to use it for (I did it for all of them). It works like a charm.

As for the learning, I've found that you need to have a steady hand or set the remotes on a table together to get the remote to learn without any errors. If the teaching remote moves too much between the first transmission and the confirmation transmission, it'll fail. (The 950's remote rarely seems to move -- a benefit of the battery weight near the front, probably.) I've taught mine commands from several remotes, and once I got the hang of it I had very good luck.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

RAF & Gonk,

Thanks for pointing me to the punch through stuff. I feel like an idiot - I swear I searched through the remote control portion of the manual a couple of times and gave up. I was having too much fun listening to the 950 to care, anyway..

I'll edit my review to note this.

Prefect -- No sweat! I had located it in advance (it's one thing my wife really wanted), but still mis-read the instructions and spent five minutes trying to program it wrong. Have fun!

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I programmed punch-through on all of my devices in about a minute before I left for work this morning.. Works like a charm!

Well folks, I think we're entering a new phase of 950 debate. We're starting to move away from the months of conjecture and getting into the years of actual, hands-on Q&A that will follow now that the 950 is shipping in volume. Remote control questions, crossover setting questions, DSP mode questions, and likely lots of other questions should start slowly appearing around here.

Oh, and I'm looking forward to an unofficial review post from Matthew now that his unit finally arrived! Maybe after a weekend of showing it off and playing with it? I'll probably be cooking up a short review update myself next week. (Got to try to be at least a little on topic...)

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gonk,

I think you're right. It only makes sense. Now that they're moving out the door at a decent rate and we know the feature set is fixed (for better or for worse), we should be hearing more owner posts and less would-be owner posts.

There are a number of things I plan to try that I haven't heard other people doing yet. I have a DAT deck with coaxial digital I/O, and a minidisc with optical digitial I/O. I haven't heard much talk of people using the unit to do any digital recording, so I might drag the 950 up to my studio and hook up the MD and the DAT and see how that goes.

I also might do a little bit of signal generator and oscilloscope work to see if I can learn anything about the analog 5.1 bypass stuff beyond what we have been told. If I get really brave (and feel like spending the time pulling the 950 out - man, that's a lot of work..), maybe I'll do an "under the hood critique" series like I did for the Audiotron. I hate voiding my warranty, but the engineer in me can't help but popping the top on new gear early in its life.

Another experiment I want to try, once my bipolar surrounds arrive, is to see if I can still manage to get 6.1 or 7.1 to sound decent in my living room. I have a depth-limited room, and my couch with the sweet spot is right up on the back wall. The room is too small to move the couch into the room, not to mention the front projection screen would be even more ridiculously large sitting closer. I'm wondering if putting my crappy old Minimus 7's up with my projector shelf in the rear center of the room, aimed outwards towards the L and R walls, will sound OK. Alternately, putting them on the L and R walls in the very rear of the room (with my real surrounds about 1/2 way or so from front to rear) might be an option. It's far from ideal, but I have no other way of getting that rear surround channel in my current room. I won't be doing any DVD-Audio or SACD listening until I move to someplace with a better room, so it will be just movie effects for now.

I guess the only way to know is give it a shot. If it sounds crappy, that's worth knowing at least.

People may be wondering why I went for the 950 when my room is really only ideal for a 5.1 setup. I really wanted to get separates (I haven't owned a receiver for a good 10 years - just separates), and I figured I could grow into the 950. After all, it's still a really good deal for a new 5.1 surround processor, even ignoring the 6.1/7.1 capability!

OK, here are some [brief] first impressions, with more to follow later:

This thing ROCKS! I cannot say that enough. I am SO glad now, that I waited for it. I haven't tried out all of its features yet, and I'm still learning to work my way around it, but so far, so good.

I'll first say that I have a 5.1, not 7.1, system at this time. I'm looking to upgrade to 7.1 in about a year or so, so until then I won't be able to comment on the Cirrus extra surround, DD-EX, or DTS-ES algorithms. Shame, too, because I'd really like to try them out.

One of the first tests I did was "The Sopranos" on VHS (boxed set, first season, episode seven). Whoah! DPL-II is definitely a BIG improvement on DPL. I didn't tinker with the DPL settings much, but I did try both Music and Cinema mode. It sounds odd, but I think I preferred Music mode slightly. It definitely sounded better on scenes where music was playing. I also tried DTS Neo:6, in both modes, and it worked pretty well.

I tried playing a few CDs, in various modes. I actually think I prefer straight stereo for a lot of CDs. My CD player has both an analog and a digitial out, and a DAC that I like very much. I had trouble, though, distinguishing a difference between using tht 950's DAC and the pass through mode. Both sounded better than using the analog input without bypass mode. I haven't gone looking for doubled bass yet, and if it was there, I didn't notice it. My subwoofer is not terribly intrusive, though.

I tried different surround modes, again, and though DTS Neo:6 was definitely better than DPL, I think I still preferred DPL-II to DTS Neo:6. I also liked the 5 channel stereo mode. Sounded much better than I thought it would. It, by far, is the most enveloping.

Next, it was time for some DTS DVDs. The Eagles, of course, sounded awesome. I think the last track, the audio-only "bonus" track, is my favorite. I also played some BeeGees. Not quite as good a mix, I don't think, but the visuals are more interesting. I think some of their studio CDs sound a lot better. Finally, it was Alice Cooper's "Brutally Live". This one simply floored me. I happen to like Alice Cooper a lot, and this disk has it all: DD 2.0, DD 5.0, and DTS 5.0 soundtracks, multiple camera angles, 16:9 aspect ratio, LOTS and lots of cool stage effects, and a great performance from Alice. Even though it was late at night, and I didn't have it cranked, and I know I should have gone to bed, I couldn't turn it off. I can't wait to crank it today.

Today I took my lunch hour at home and sat on the couch eating a sandwich and listening to FM radio. I never knew, before, that FM could be a Hi-Fi meduim. Some stations weren't so great, but some sounded as good as a CD. I tried all the surround modes, and by and far DPL-II Music blew them all away. This surprised me, because the day before I'd only slightly preferred it to the others.

DPL ranked at the bottom of the list, followed by the two DTS Neo:6 modes. Then comes 5 Stereo, followed by Stereo, and the two DPL-II modes. 5 Stereo sounded surprisingly good, but I preferred the DPL-II. Comparitively, 5 Stereo wraps you in a blanket of sound (I think it has the highest enveloping effect of all the modes) but doesn't really "place" any of the instruments anywhere. They're all coming at you from all directions. Whereas DPL-II can actually place the lead vocalist on the center channel and the backup vocalists on the surround channels! I have no idea how it does that. The effect was simply breathtaking.

As far as the noise floor goes, I simply could not hear it, even with the volume cranked on a dead input. The computer equipment a few rooms away drowns out any hiss that may come from this thing, and the fans really aren't that loud since they're some distance away.

I like the layout of the remote, but it did give me a few troubles. For one, its action seems to be a bit spotty. Some buttons take two or three tries to register, and sometimes I actually had to walk around and aim it at the 950 at different angles to get it to work. It seems slightly better today than it did yesterday, though, if that's possible. I also couldn't program any of my devices into it. I followed the procedure in the manual, tried ALL the codes listed for my device type and brand, and the various devices never powered off. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I may try to "teach" it later from my current remote. I'm also curious that the directional pad doubles as the transport controls. This will work fine for my TV and my VCR, but not for my DVD player, as it has a separate directional pad and transport controls. But I didn't get it to work at ALL for the DVD player yet, so I don't really know.

Well, that's my two cents for now. I'm going to go back and listen to my Creed CD again.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I'm going to try an experiment tonight: Putting the surround speakers in front of me halfway between the mains and my listening position and the back surrounds behind me at an elevation. Then diddle with the delay setting.

As I've sampled several film tracks over the past three days, I've thought that this might create a more dynamic sound field that would immerse you in the surround effects.

If it works, it could be part of a solution for those who want 7.1 but lack the space in the rear.

We shall see ...

I worried about this as well, as it was the one real negative I've read about the 9000 remote. My solution was the teach the remote the navigation commands for the directional pad and then teach the transport commands to some of the buttons about the macro buttons. It sounds really strange, but it works out pretty well for me.

The programming problem with the remote sounds odd. I did struggle some figuring out how to get punch-through to work (mis-understood the manual for some reason -- it made perfect sense when I re-read it a week later). If you have problems again later, you might try posting what you're doing to see if anybody can spot a mistake.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Mathew,

Could you tell us the xovers you are using and each speakers low freq -3dB spec?

Mains, -3dB at 28Hz, crossed over at 40Hz
Center, -3dB at 50Hz, crossed over at 60Hz
Surrounds, -3dB at 60Hz, crossed over at 80Hz

EDIT: These are the Axiom Epic 80 setup if anybody is curious. I happen to think they sound particularly nice and have gone on at length about them on the speaker forum.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

[This message has been edited by Matthew Hill (edited May 05, 2002).]

Got my 950 last night.

Point of reference -this is replacing a Denon AVR-1800 rec. ~3yrs. old and cost $400 at the time.
I have been using an Audiosource Amp 3 to power dual DIY sonotube/Shive subs, an Audiosource Amp 7 (Tripath based digital amp) to power the mains, and the Denon's internal amps to power the surrounds (no preout for surrounds).

First off... No brainer... sound-wise this thing blows away the Denon in every way. Then again, I had no doubts of that before I got it -as I'm sure everyone else would imagine also.

Build quality... obviously the 'guts' in this thing are great. Power supply, boards, chips, etc...
Outside, I've heard this thing's case called 'built like a tank'... uh, no, it's built like a typical reviever.

It's face doesn't look as good as the Denon's, I wish I could turn the display off like I can on my Denon, and the 950's case seems exactly the same thickness that the Denon's.
The 950's case is stronger though due to it not having air venting across the entire top and sides like the Denon.

If this sounds too critical, let me say I don't feel it's case needs to be any better than it is, just relating what I think of it.

The remote... Well, w/ the batteries on the top end (opposite of my Denon's), I keep grabing it facing the wrong way! No flaw there though, just funny!

I was hoping it would be able to learn all my other remotes and I could shelve them. Still not finished working on that, but it seems like, sadly, I won't be able to do that.

Even though it's more advanced than the non-learning universal model the Denon came with, it seems to not control much more than the Denon does, and seems worst of all, it's worse at controlling my Pannie RP-56 DVD player.

I can put in the code to work the DVD's menu system, OR I can teach the remote how to work the play/stop/pause 'CD player type' functions, but looks like not BOTH unless I use up the macros (which I guess I will). My Denon can toggle between the two full sets of controls.

I have a tiny remote to control my wall sconces. ON/OFF button, and dim up/down buttons. I can teach the remote the dim up/down function, but it won't learn the on/off button!? No idea why, but even though the button turns green to say 'It DID learn it', it WON'T accept the save of it?

I also don't like when switching to control diff components, the Outlaw switches inputs, and has to re-aquire the audio signal. The Denon remote didn't have that problem because it had control buttons at the top like the 950, but ALSO input mode buttons at the botton. Much better IMO.

Maybe I missed something in the manual about improving this switching problem, but I did't really look at the manual beyond how you program in the remote codes and learn codes.
"I don't need no stinking manual!"

The main point (though not the only point) is how it sounds though right?

After about 5 min. to set this up (super easy through either the 950's face, or onscreen display) I played some CD tracks that I know inside and out. Tori Amos, Pink Floyd, The Police, ect...

Note- I didn't use an SPL meter of calibrate any certain vol to 75db. I just set my main speakers (Newform Research 645's) to 0db and through test tones set surrounds (NR 630's) to level match, and also guessed on the sub level. Set the distances , and 80Hz x-overs. My Newform's typically go much lower than that, but they're so far away from the walls ~6', that the bass is greatly reduced (other than bass for reinforcement, it's the optimal placement otherwise), and it only improves the midrange by taking out as much bass from them as I can get away with.

I don't like center speakers, and don't have or like side dipole surrounds. I may get a rear center in the future though.

The Denon never said in the manual what the 'small' x-over was, but I assumed ~80Hz. I could turn off my main amp and still hear most of the song coming through the subs. I thought this was just a slow 1st order x-over slope, but I can't really say.

With the 950 set to 80Hz, there's only bass. Almost nothing above that. A HUGE diff.

Overall the full range sound of stereo+subs is WORLDS better than the Denon used as a preamp (which was already much better than the Denon used as an all in one reciever).

Bass is tremendously tighter. The midrange is far more detailed, and the highs are much more extended.
The sound is far better even than when I ran my DVD player directly into my main amp (which has gain controls) and while direct-to-amp was a hassle to set up, was much better itself than running through the Denon -except I couldn't run my subs in that setup.

With movies the Denon always seemed to crackle with lots of movie dialouge. This was the same at low volumes too, so it wasn't clipping, or at least not what I would think. I thought DD, and DTS data streams are pretty bulletproof as they pass along dig. cables (I'm using Outlaw's optical -which sounds no diff. than my Acoustic Research opt. cable), so I figrued the Denon was somehow damaging the audio once it was decoded, and have always hated this problem I've been living with.

With the 950, that prob. is solved. Very clean, and accurate sounding. This is the main reason for getting this sucker for me, and it does what I wanted it to do!

I can't comment on the PL2 very much. Seems cool. Should be nice for TV. Probably games too.
I noticed it has the same 'swirly noise' though that original PL does when you put your ears close to the rear speakers. This doesn't show up when you're sitting in a normal spot though, so I'm sure it'll be fine. Not so far the thrilling element some others feel it is.

Some people write reviews on this thing and mention nothing else in their system. The 950 is only a piece of a chain, and no matter how good you call the 950, it can't EVER be anything more than that, so what it's mated to like any other component make a huge diff. in a review.

I think now that I have the 950, that my sound is still a little flat and processed sounding (in audiophile nitpicking terms -not blatant at all), and I'd like to get a new main amp to hear just how far I can take this sound quality from the 950 to my Newform Research and soon to be SVS of Hsu sub.

Overall... worth the $900 for sure. Still not sure just how good it is though, but so far at least VERY GOOD.

Azryan,

Of all the reviews I've read, yours is the most convincing. When you hear glowing reviews from all the Outlaw Cheerleaders that prolifically post on the forums, their praise for the product is a forgone conclusion. But now that some of the skeptics are posting positive reviews, the waters feel safer. Good thing since I just got my letter from Outlaw.

I'll keep reading reviews till the last of my 7 days though. Did you hear any of the hum problems others are reporting?

HT crazed,

"Outlaw Cheerleaders?" Care to be more specific with some facts? Or is this the "same old, same old" that has poluted threads on other forums?

Just curious, because this is the first off-topic comment that I've read here. If you are saying that hearing good reports from what some consider "Outlaw Bashers" is a good sign because that means more to you, then, fine. I totally understand and agree with you. But if you are saying that people who give positive comments about a product after thorough analysis have to be categorized "Cheerleaders" and all that this remark implies, then you are treading on very shaky ground, IMHO.

??

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 04/17/02) Now includes Outlaw 950 and Outlaw 755

[This message has been edited by Robert A Fowkes (edited May 05, 2002).]

In better news, I'm having a little more luck with the remote now. Finally got it programmed for my TV & VCR. Don't know why it didn't work before; I simply followed the same procedure today that I did last time, and one of the codes turned the VCR off. Likewise for the TV. *shrug*

I couldn't find a code that would turn off my CD player (Sony CDP-MX555ES) but that's OK, I would probably use the Sony's remote anyway as it has a handy LCD that shows track and disc titles.

The only code that worked for the TV had some of the buttons wrong; the "menu" button worked, and up-down keys, but side to side keys activated the picture controls, so I had no way to use the menu. So I used the "learn" function to reprogram those keys. Worked like a charm, once I figured out how to work it.

One thing that confused me; you have to press the key on the teaching remote twice; my first reading of the manual seemed to say you had to press the button on the teaching remote once and then the button on the 950 remote. In fact, once you press the button on the teaching remote twice, it's programmed, and you don't press the 950's button again.

I didn't have so much luck with my DVD player. For one, my DVD player has no on/off function on the remote; only on the front panel, so that made finding the code harder. The only code I found that does anything has all the buttons in VERY odd places, and the keypad doesn't work, etc. Later, when I get time, I'm going to try using the learning function to program each button individually without using a code. It may be hard, though, because of all the "weird" buttons on the DVD remote (angle, subtitle, a-b, clear, time, program, shuffle, audio, menu, title, display, return, and at least half a dozen others...) Even if I find a key on the 950's remote for all of these, I'll forget what they all do rather quickly.

Overall, I'm happy with the remote. My only qualm is that it still occasionally takes several presses to get the 950 to recognize a command... And going from five to three remotes is still a BIG improvement.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

HT crazed,
Glad you thought my review sounded the most believable to you. I think calling some of these people here 'cheerleaders' though (while may be true) is insulting none the less. Maybe slightly diff. wording might just be 'nicer' to help keep the peace around here -before the Sheriff locks anybody up! -heh

RAF,
I hope you don't consider me an Outlaw basher!? I got mad during those last few weeks at their lack of follow through on delivery -understandibly so IMO, but either way I'm no 'basher'.
I said I'd stop being mad when they shipped, and true to my word, I'm no longer mad.

I've supported Outlaw's 950 progress for most of the year I waited for this sucker -though diminishingly as it carried on.

Also, I think HT crazed's short post about my review wasn't a problem and not off-topic IMO -though I may be biased from the complement?
And if it was off-topic, your post about his post might be considered even more-so? No big deal IMO. I can understand how the 'cheerleader' comment might've gotten to you though, but he didn't say 'you'.

While I can't speak for HT crazed himself,
I think he means (and relevant to further reviews here IMO) lots of people love this thing (and for good reasons), but have zero problems with anything about it.
Even when something doesn't work like they hoped -somehow it's fine by them anyway?
Like it's flawless. That'd be a 'cheerleader attitude', though probably rude to say despite the fact. And makes a review from these bowled-over people hard to trust as objective.

No product's flawless, and mentioning it's flaws doesn't mean 'bashing' and doesn't mean this 950 isn't still a very good sounding unit for a great price.

Some people don't even mention what they're comparing it to, or the rest of thier current set up... as if the sound magically floats into the 950 and then directly into our ears. As if amps, speakers, room, etc... are 1) irrelevent to the sound that's heard, or 2) can't effect the perfect sound of the 950.

It really makes those reviews usless and I KNOW people mean for them to be meaningful to others.
Your reviews, by the way RAF, DON'T skip these important facts and because of that, I found them to be very useful.

Also, I think Sound & Vision mag. is faaaar worse than any posts made here at making no relevent comparisons or mentioning the effects of other elements in the audio/vido chain.... and those punks get paid to do reviews! too bad it's by the companies they review.

HT crazed,

Forgot to mention that I don't hear the hum described by others. When nothing's playing (in DVD mode-optical cable) at any volume when my ear is close to my ribbon tweeter I can hear noise. It's very faint though and can't hear it when you're more than a few feet away -which I always am. I can't say that the noise is the 950 either.
I'd be more willing to bet it's my amps.

I have a dedicated 20amp line to my HT room, and 12ga. elec. wire. The rest of the house and the other houses connected to the same power transformer are all wired 14 ga., so my HT room should be supressing most outside noise.

Matthew,

I think we're in the same boat w/ our DVD remotes.
If this helps, I programed in my DVD code which works some menu functions, then I taught it all the track numbers and a few other buttons which gives me enough to 'basically' work the two sets of DVD remote functions. I didn't use up any macros yet either.

I'm determined to shelve my other remotes even if it means losing some control. I think this remote'll come 'close enough'.

I'm sick of having a pile of remotes, and my old Denon did away w/ most of them. I'm not gonna go backwards, and I'm not gettin' a rip off pronto- not when they cost as much as a palm pilot!? Too bad there's no IR adapter for those. Now that'd be a good deal.

Calling Mr.Gonk,
On that subject, I saw your earlier posts where you were busy programming your 950 remote. Are you going to try to teach the 950 remote to your Sony, and cont. using the commander? Does the Sony, handle the 950?

You rang?

I am using the 950's remote exclusively right now. The Sony could handle the job with a little creative learning/setup (similar to what I did when I had it controlling the 1050), but my wife and I both have liked having a more "traditional" sized remote. Plus my wife never really liked the touchscreen, and the cats tended to walk across it on the coffee table and change things with their paws.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

(You rang?) Sorry Gonk, I bet that Outlaw doorbell wire which came with your 1050, drives you and your wife crazy sometimes!

(cats tended to walk across it on the coffee table and change things with their paws.) Happened twice this weekend here, boy can Cart Racing, 'blow you out of the water' when the cats stretch, - they like to use it as a pillow! Thanks for the reply, maybe I will warm up to the 950 remote, right now I really prefer my touchscreen, good to know it sounds like I can.
PS. I got my order confirmation! I'm such a goose, e-mail was sent 5-3, and I didn't see it till late yesterday. Have to make my final decision now, feverishly checking all the posts by the new owners, today!

Here's my litle review . Took me awhile to finish it



[This message has been edited by ltkhuc (edited May 05, 2002).]

ltkhuc,
Thanks for the review. If English is not your first language you have absolutely nothing to apologize for. It was just fine and a lot better than a lot of us "natives."

I'm glad you like your 950.

azryan,
No, I didn't really consider you an Outlaw "basher" just one of the frustrated people on the outside looking in while the beta testers played with the prototypes. But yes, I did see the inference of a link between being a beta tester and being a cheerleader and that bothered me a bit. Granted, "Cheerleading" could be defined as having an extremely positive attitude toward something, but I don't think that was what the author was implying. Whatever. I can only speak for myself and I resent the fact that when I tell what I believe is the truth that it's automatically assumed that something less than honest is going on.

But, as said before, I fully understand why some people seem more comfortable now that others are being heard from and the majority of the reports are backing up what we have been saying. Not everyone who receives their 950 can be part of any conspiracy, right? (And your point is well taken about off-topic discussions. I didn't start it, but I'll try to tone it down for the sake of keeping this about the 950 and reviews.)

Speaking of which, my take on the 950's remote is that it's "OK" but I'm not about to give up my Pronto. To me the remote is a bonus with the 950 and does not have anything to do with the sonic performance of the unit. The fact that it has some universal controlability is a nice little extra, but whether it's good or bad is not that important to me. Others may disagree with me but that's my take on this.

My main beef with the remote has to do with its "universality." When you press one of the other functions you have to remember to press the AUD button in the upper left hand corner to return control to the 950 (for menu options, etc.) The VOLUME PUNCH THROUGH function (as explained in the manual) is essential otherwise I'd throw the remote across the room.

However, like I may have mentioned here (I'm on so many forums that it's hard to remember what I said where) I've programmed my Pronto by replacing all my previous DENON 5700 references with Outlaw 950 equivalent references and it suits me fine (including volume and mute punch through on the Pronto).

To anticipate another question, NO, I did not create a special Outlaw 950 CCF file for the Pronto with all the controls on it. I'm willing to bet that this is probably being done as we speak by somebody and I'll probably borrow it as well to add additional functionality to my Pronto as a backup for the Outlaw Remote.

If the CCF already exists I'd like to hear about it.

Take care, all.


------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 04/17/02) Now includes Outlaw 950 and Outlaw 755


[This message has been edited by Robert A Fowkes (edited May 05, 2002).]

It's a shame it doesn't have a VOLUME + 20 OR SO OTHER KEYS punch-through mode.

I tried to program it to change my Sony TV from normal to anamorphic mode, with one of the macros, but no luck. Would you believe it takes a minimum of 11 remote codes to accomplish this task? Add the source selection (apparently all macros start on "AUD") and I'm two strokes over the maximum for one macro.

Unbelievable. I can't believe Sony made such a glaring UI blunder in an otherwise nice TV.

Well, pressing the TV/VIDEO button repeatedly to cycle through the 6 inputs (including RF) to find the two that I use is pretty annoying too. No remote can fix that.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

mdanderson,
would you be up for a side by side comparison of the 950 and the rotel 1066?
Over at HTF, some are trying to set something up. I noticed you were in Rowlett. There is a guy (jeff) in the colony with a 1066.
Let me know if you'd be up for it. Jeff is willing to host or go to someone's elses house. I know I, and many others would like to see how they stack up against each other. I'm in Plano and could also host it since I'm in the middle.

"Whatever. I can only speak for myself and I resent the fact that when I tell what I believe is the truth that it's automatically assumed that something less than honest is going on."

RAF, I wasn't speaking of anyone in particular as Outlaw cheerleaders, only those that unfailing only present the positives without the negatives (perfection which no product or anything else in the real world can claim). And also those that refer to anyone who does try to fully scrutinize the product as "Outlaw Bashers".

As if any possibly downside discussion about the company or the product is somehow malicious. News Flash: Guys, its just part of the information gathering, decision making process. In short, its how most people shop for any product. And to be called a company "basher" just because you want to know ALL the facts is the epitomy of boorish sales pressure IMO.

Has anyone been doing this w/ their remote?....

Since the 950 pauses for a while to reaquire the audio signal (sadly, a little longer than my cheap Denon Rec. takes, but not too bad)...

I cup my hand over the IR end of the remote so I can switch between diff. components I want to control without the 950 switching it's inputs.

Or for my wife who just wants to use the remote to control the TV in the morning... If she doesn't cup her hand over the remote when she hits the tv button, the 950 turns on when she doesn't want anything but the TV running. She pretty 'remote-impared' so she doesn't dig this much.

Pretty annoying 'cuz I didn't have to do that w/ my old rec. (which also has an lcd screen so you know what the remote is currently controlling) , but it's not too big a deal and seems to work better as it becomes more of a habit to do.

I don't like the small volume control buttons, or that nearly all the buttons are tiny rectangles or identical circles, and that the Power button is right above the frequently used Mute -haven't turned anything off accidentally yet, but it'll happen some time I'm sure.

Oh yeah, and I touched the buttons on the face of the 950 today -for the first time. Just didn't even think of it before I guess?

I have to say these buttons -like others have said before- stick out A LOT. Wow! And they're VERY flimsy IMO! I'm afraid to touch them again! I'll seriously avoid it -they're that cheap feeling.

My low end Denon has nice tight solid metal buttons and volume dial like all Denon's do.

RAF, you have a high end Denon, and I didn't remember you ever mentioning that the 950's face is far more flimsy than your Denon? Was that irellevant to you, or do you think I'm wrong about the comparsion?
To me that seems like one of the little things you guys could've mentioned in between the praise of the 950's sound -if you were wondering why some people took some of the beta reviews with a grain of salt.

Not thrilled with Outlaw's own cables just barely fitting into the preouts either. The 950's preout spacing seems to be the typical spacing, BUT since their cables are not typical thickness they should've went with wider spacing IMO. Probably a more costly option 'cuz it's not 'standard'.

Someone mentioned that they liked how the connections are all gold plated... The $200 POS Aiwa rec. that I had for ~a week before I dumped it onto someone else had gold connections. It's very typical, and the plating on mine looked slightly cracked on several inputs. I'm sure it's fine though, just not any sign of better than typical quality.

Awesome cables by the way. Much better than typical in their price range.

Better the 950's spacing be changed than the cables be made thinner -though I'm sure neither will be altered.

I guess most of the money's on the inside. Which is pretty much what I'd prefer from a value targeted item like this, so I'm very happy overall so far.

"Tremendously good stereo and HT sound".

I think you'd have to get into outboard DACs or very high end pre/pros to gain a significant improvement. There's better, but in most cases it'll cost you big!

And by that I mean NOT determined through blind or double blind testing.

If you can't easily tell the diff. in sound quality between to vastly diff. priced components, you need to just buy the cheaper one and smile..., NOT do some kind of blind test to 'gather further data'.

And if the components sound the same and are close in price (which the 950 has nothing to compare to beyond outdated/used pre/pros) then you can just decide based on features.

Now where's my universal disc player? Don't wait for digital outs. Analog isn't a crime. Put your own cables where your mouths are.
Can't they pass a mint SACD or DVDA signal to my new 950??

When they say univeral remote, they mean it. Every single pre/pro I've auditioned came with the awful remote. The Reference 30, Rotel 1066 and now the 950.

Is the seperates world so small that some manufacturer somewhere can't build a better one size fits all pre/pro remote to OEM?

Thanks, I feel better now.

My cat used to do that when I left the room. I got so DAMNED sick of watching those Animal Planet shows all the time. Blah.

By the way, glad to see I'm not the only one who isn't overjoyed with the 950 remote. I consider it a gimme, rather than a deal breaker. Blah.

Although Azryan's "expose" style makes me a little queasy, we're pretty much in agreement with the spacing of the RCA inputs and the buttons on the front of the 950. Wiggle, wiggle, little button. Blah.

On the other hand, we're also in agreement over the sound which is, after all, the center ring attraction. I continue to be impressed by the details in recordings that my old H/K pre/pro would kind of "push forward" but that the Outlaw just allows to take its own subtle place in the soundfield. Blah.

Glad to see that your Outlaw arrived before the ambulance did, Ryan. You sounded like it was getting a little intense toward the end of the waiting period. I'm more of a suffer in silence guy, myself. And then show up with an axe and SURPRISE THEM ALLLLLLL Muahhahahahahaa!!! Blah.


Bob "Too much Greg the Bunny" L.


Blah.


[This message has been edited by bobliinds (edited May 07, 2002).]

blah

[This message has been edited by bobliinds (edited May 07, 2002).]

Aight!

Blah

As I wait for my 950, could I ask all who are posting their reviews here to provide the following info?

1) Main, center and surround 950 xovers?
2) Main, center and surround speaker -3dB low freq spec?
3) CD music input; digital or analog?

Thanks,
Bruce

azryan,
Yes, the buttons on the Denon have a "less flimsy feel" than those on the 950, but I don't consider the 950 buttons as being something bad enough to even mention. There are a couple of factors in play here. For one thing, I hardly ever use the buttons on a unit once my Pronto is set up. Also, the fact that the Outlaw buttons react to a slighly lesser push might be considered a plus by some. Another thing to remember is that the majority of the buttons on the Denon 5700 are, for the most part, hidden behind that large swinging door. Not only would that protect them from prying hands but that also makes them a little harder to use/see/whatever without the use of a flashlight under certain lighting conditions.



Some people are losing sight of the purpose of the beta tests. They were done to shake down the product, not for the benefit of onlookers. At no time were the remarks made to serve as a "review" (I've stated this several times and people still choose to misconstrue this.) The fact that the beta test was done so openly on the Internet was, at least to me, very rare in the annuls of beta testing and, unfortunately, because of the way some people tried to subvert the process, probably won't be happening so openly in the future. Perhaps the Outlaws, despite whatever publicity benefits they enjoyed from all this, now realize that the open process was more trouble than it was worth. Too many people, as you did, made the beta tests into something that they definitely were not - probably a bit out of frustration because of the delays. I hope that clears this situation up.

The mode we are in now, with actual owners producing their own reviews (with professional reviews to follow) is an entirely different matter and the purpose of this thread.

Now is the time that people start to talk about whatever aspect of the 950 interests them the most - everything from the sound it produces to the adequacy or inadequacy of the remote. Reviews will continue to come in and, of course, I would assume that there would be negatives along with the positives. It would be hard to imagine any product being infallible and the 950 certainly doesn't fall into that category. There were many, many e-mails and discussions during the beta testing process that never saw the light of day and that's totally appropriate because during the beta testing process several items were changed and were not in the final product. Talking about features that had been totally changed or that were no longer in the 950 would have just become grist for the mill.

I hope you understand this and that this thread will stay on target talking about 950 features and performance. In fact, since I've been taking up bandwidth here I'm going to start a new thread to discuss the 950 beta test with anyone who cares to do that. Reviews and features here. Beta test discussions, there.

O.K.?

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 04/17/02) Now includes Outlaw 950 and Outlaw 755

[This message has been edited by Robert A Fowkes (edited May 07, 2002).]

It's hard to believe. After 6 months of battling it out on the online forums with both the "bashers" and the "cheerleaders", feeling my blood pressure rise while watching movie after movie in their lame pro-logic glory - I filled out a form yesterday, and the 950 was waiting for me at my office this morning. Just like that?

I feel cheated because there wasn't any kind of Halo around the box, voices from the sky as I opened it, or anything even vaguely similar to the opening scene of "The 5th Element" happening.

Just another black audio box to add to the collection? We'll see.

The (not so) funny thing is, for the first time in the 10 years I've owned them, my main speakers are in the shop waiting for parts (I can't wait to find out what two new B&W 804 Matrix tweeters will cost). DOH!

But no obstacle is too great with a new 950 in the rack. My surrounds will become my surrogate mains as I rip through my CD collection tonight.

You were expecting a review? After the long 950 saga, I felt just the existential experience of actually receiving it justified its own review. More to follow after I get my mains back.

Are you sure, HT? Mine had ALL those things. Perhaps your unit is defective.



And for a previous poster:

950 Crossovers

NHT 2.5 Mains -- 60Hz

NHT AC 1 Center -- 100Hz (Higher xover clarifies voice tracks.)

NHT 1.5 Surrounds (4) -- 80Hz or 100Hz depending on the material. Higher xover puts a little more air in the room, lower puts a little more body in the surround tracks

SVS 20-39CS subwoofer

I would agree about the remote, even though I don't use it, after having the 950 five days. And yes, I know my review sounds like a cheerleader but keep in mind it was 4 in the morning after 12 hours of listening to the 950/770. So as a follow up I will list these as the problems: The remote is really touchy and I flat out don't like it. I use a mx-500 and I also own a pronto so that is not a problem for me. I also found as well that the inputs on back were designed too small for Outlaws cables, or vice versa. They work, it just doesnt give one a lot of room to work with. The light on the 770 button never goes off which can be really confusing trying to figure out the trigger. The manual feels kinda cheap to me. It is very well written and helpful, its just feels sort of cheap, like a college term paper. I also am not a fan of the delay in between signals. My old flagship Kenwood did not do that, but is that enough to make me go back? Keep reading... The positives? Just like I put in my review, it is tight, clear and very detailed. I still can not get over some of the things I am noticing for the first time in movies, like cracking of twigs or soft effects. I actually was watching Les Miserables in concert and there is a moment during what I believe was the "Stars" track where it got silent for a second or two just for musical timing and I swear I could hear the wind blowing across the stage. How cool is that? This also was not filmed during a monsoon, it was a perfect day in England, a little above freezing So to recap, the remote, manual, input spacing, power light, have little to do with my enjoyment of the 950. If I had to use the remote, it would take away from some of my enjoyment, but not much. I would at least invest in a 40 dollar Sony (vl900)learning remote. That thing is great for the price. The time delay getting a signal could be bothersome but I will adjust. Please don't twist this into me trying to compliment the faults as mentioned above in this thread, its just the truth. When my options are the beautiful sound of the 950 or something else in that price range my decision is easy, REAL easy. I will take the time delay. It is barely there but I am trying to find audible stuff taking away from my enjoyment of the 950 and so far that is about it. If a visual helps, if Audible enjoyment is 100% the time delay would drop it to 99.83% Now, if I had to use the remote it would drop to about 97%. See, the numbers never lie.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited May 07, 2002).]

Jed,

Was that this disc ? My only complaint with it is that the sound seems weak, or lacking oomph, especially in comparission to the sound from the 2-CD soundtrack set.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to watching this concert again once I receive my 950. Which is finally on the way having left CA for New England on the 3rd.

------------------
pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

Pat, your link says the session has timed out but I am sure we are speaking of the same dvd/cd http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/0767812131/tech-info/002-5744883-2071256 I have Klipsch speakers so maybe that adds a little oomph but I agree that the cd sounds more dynamic. I absolutely love this dvd but I wish it were dts, dvd-a,or sacd. I think you will thoroughly enjoy watching it with your new 950.

Yep, that's the one.

------------------
pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

Jed,

I just picked up an MX 500 last night in anticipation of the arrival of my 950/770 any day now. Any issues using the MX 500 instead of the SL 900? Were you able to program in everything you wanted from the 900 to the 500?

Patrick, yes I was able to program everything but it took a few times which was troubling. That is originally why I disliked the included remote. It is very touchy and doesnt always send the signal or something. For instance when I was learning the component buttons, all of them learned fine except video 1 (labeled sat). I had to keep retrying to learn for reasons that are beyond me. There seems to be a short skip when pushing that button on my remote. It lights red for about a second then blinks and continues lighting. Maybe that was the reason it was so hard to learn. I finally timed it right and got it. Besides that I just really thought the remote was unresponsive in a lot of ways which led to making the learning process not nearly as seamless as it should be for the mx500. I will admit I have been spoiled by the Pronto for the last three years and the mx500 for the last four months so I may be way too picky. Just like I said about the time delay thing, I would imagine those who stick with it will just adjust, no big deal. But on the other hand you made a wise choice with the mx500. It is the best remote I have ever owned, everything considered. My number one complaint is no computer interface and that is why I can't get rid of my pronto. I love my discrete codes Number two is that it can get old entering in all the names for the lcd display with the numeric buttons (see number one). Besides all that, its still my favorite.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited May 07, 2002).]

Azryan, no, you're not the only one who does that (cupped hand over remote end). At first I thought it was kind of cool that the input selection buttons also turned on the 950 and switched the remote modes, but I quickly found that it's inconvenient many times and that the only way around it is to cup your hand over the end of the remote.

Another qualm with the remote: it seems as though Outlaw used the standard 9000 labelling for the key caps and only supplied templates for the space between the keys. So, for example, there is the button labelled "ENTER" on its face and "BYPASS" above... and then there are the ten buttons at the bottom with no labelling on their face. This isn't really an issue except when you're in a dark room; the buttons light up but the labels above the remote do not so you have no idea what 950 functions the buttons control.

Otherwise I think it's a decent (not great, but decent) remote and I'm pretty happy with it as far as a bundled-with-a-device remote goes. I probably wouldn't have paid money for it as a 3rd party universal remote, though.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Cranked up the new 950 for the first time last night. Spent some time listening to CDs in stereo (my frame of reference). Right out of the box the 950 sounded a little thin, a little laid-back (as opposed to forward)and a bit analytical in it's presentation. But wow, the imaging, space and air around the images was incredible. The sound has warmed with some burn-in time (both the 950 and interconnects are new) and the sonic images are moving forward a bit. I've been listening so far without a sub, and I've just realized the 950 defaults set the mains to small. That may be the reason I thought the sound was a bit thin. DOH!
Time to do some more listening !

My previous Pre-Pro was a Marantz AV550 that had DD and DPL. I must say that the 950 sounds MUCH better for movies and to a slightly lesser degree music.

I too have some gripes about the remote, most of which have been stated already so I won't say anymore on the subject other than I will be doing some programming on either my RC2000 or my Pronto.

Other than the remotes short comings I have been VERY happy with the DPL2 performance with cable programming and also music to some extent.

I am still toying with the different DPL2 music settings at this time and it may be a while before I settle on what settings (center width, dimension etc)to use.

My initial music preferences are DPL2-M, then DTS NEO6 followed by 5Stereo. Though I think the 5Stereo would be great for parties or get togethers.

Overall I am very happy!

More to come later............



[This message has been edited by marc seals (edited May 10, 2002).]

Here are my first impressions of the Outlaw 950 that I received on Monday. I hope to post additional comments once I have gone through more of the surround modes and some additional dvds and music. My system consists of the following:

Fronts-Paradigm Ref. 20's-v2
Center-Paradigm Studio CC
Surrounds-Paradigm Ref. 20's-v1
Back Surrounds-Paradigm Mini Monitors
Amplification-Outlaw 750 and ATI 1502
Sub-Paradigm PS-1000
DVD-Pioneer DV-414
VCR-Proscan
TV-Proscan 27"
Cables-DH Labs Silver Sonic T-14 and BL-1 series II -Outlaw IC's for back surrounds
Old receiver-Yamaha RX-V795

First of all, I have been waiting a long time like so many others for this component to come out and I was very excited to finally receive it. Well the sound is just simply incredible. After going through the setup and deciding on the speaker size(small with fronts crossed at 40HZ and center and surround crossed at 60Hz), I put in a DTS demo disc and played Seal's "Prayer For the Dying." I was floored to say the least. The 950 had no problem reproducing the dynamics and detail in this song. I even had to turn my sub level down from where I had it with my old receiver.

The tuner works fine and 2 channel music from cds sounds very robust and smooth. I had to use the small setting on my speakers to get the sub to activate with tuner and 2 channel music. I also like the Dolby Pro Logic2-cinema when watching TV. The Phantom Menace was on TV Thursday night and I was really impressed at how great it sounded with DPL2. My first dvd to watch was Dark City and the level of detail I heard was amazing. Other 950 owners have mentioned about how much more detail they are hearing in movies and I can attest to that with Dark City. This is one of my favorite dvds and ambient sounds came through like never before. Well those are some of the positives. Here is one of the negatives.

The primary reason I wanted the 950 was for the new 6.1 format for dvds. In my first tests of this surround mode I have been somewhat disappointed. It may not be the fault to the 950, but I just simply don't hear much information coming from the center surround speakers. It may also be that I was just expecting too much in the way of more surround info in this format. I have tried Toy Story 2, Atlantis and Phantom Menace. Of these three, PM sounds the best to me in 6.1 mode. When I toggle back and forth between DD and DD EX, the overall sound level seems to definitely decrease some in EX mode and it does not sound as dynamic compared to just Dolby Digital mode. I actually prefered DD at times. I realize that the sound is more spread out in EX mode and this may have something to do with it.

I have not tried the Cirrus Extra mode so that could make a difference in the performance also. DTS ES encoded dvds are a different story however. I have tried The Haunting and Gladiator and both of them sound so incredible in DTS ES. The center surround info did not disappoint with certain scenes in Gladiator. This was one awesome dvd. The difference did not surprise me with these dvds however since the sound is a discrete one for the center surround channel.

In summary, the 950 is certainly a high quality component with exceptional performance and features for the money. It has so far been well worth the wait for me and I hope to post some additional input later. Thanks for reading. Hope everyone enjoys their 950.

------------------


[This message has been edited by mdanderson (edited May 11, 2002).]

manderson,

Any why you use different crossover settings for your fronts vs. surrounds since they are are both Ref 20's?

applejelly,
You raise a good question about my crossovers being different for my surrounds and front speakers. I may be wrong or off in my reasoning but I feel like there is less bass information going to the surrounds so I chose a higher crossover for it. I may try setting them all the same and see how it sounds though.

------------------

Here is my quick and dirty review of the 950 so far...

My review system:

Outlaw 950
B&K AV 500 Mark 11 5 ch amp
Ati 1502 power amp
RCA DTC 100
HTPC with Radeon LE and AP 24/96 sound card
Belden 89259 speaker cables
Tributaries interconnects all around and the FREE excellent line level cables that came with the 950
Monitor Audio Silver series speakers
Paradigm Titans to complement the 4 rear channels
HSU VFT-2 subwoofer


Positives:

The noise floor issue is moot in my set-up. I'm experiencing the same as everyone else, do the ear to tweater test ang you get hiss, move the ear away from the speaker and nothing.

After several hours of listening, i am very impressed. There are many improvments over my former ACT3 processor which was/is an excellent value processor in it's own right. The clarity and subtle details are immediately evident, the 950 allows for a HUGE soundstage, i mean HUGE! Did i mention HUGE? This piece just plains sounds really good! If the lack of individual speaker levels and delays were a problem featurwise in the 950, i certainly can't hear it.

I set-up the 950 without the manual meaning it is very straightforward to say the least. Took 10 minutes.

Definitely sound to die for at $899. Like Evan said in his review, the 950 will undoubtedly hold it's own against the more expensive prepros out there. I can't speak personally but i have listened to high quality gear and know good sound when i hear it. I'll leave out the superlatives but the 950 delivers. How's that for short and sweet. Good job Outlaws! Was the wait worth it, i would have to say yes.

Negatives:

When listening to dvd playback on my HTPC, when switching from PCM to DD or DTS, there is a pop heard through the 950 when this switching occurs. This is not necessarily the 950's doing but some processors including the Acurus Act3, Tag AV 32 and now the 950 among a few other prepros are succeptible to this but M-Audio is working on a driver fix for their line of sound cards. Again, only a handful of processors display this, be it acquisition time or sensitivity or ? For the most part it's not a problem.

The remote is OK but i use a Pronto anyways so no biggie for me.

Lastly, this is one pet peave i have with this unit which is the inability to remember which modes were previously accessed or the inability to store these as defaults. This is a problem in particlar when listening to 2 channel. The 950 always defaults to Prologic 11. Of course i am using the digital input, obviously the direct bypass will allow for true analog 2 channel sound at one touch of a button. Regardless, having to scroll through all the modes when switching inputs is a pain. This is about the only real problem i have encountered at all with this unit. Don't get me wrong, the 950's sound far outweighs ANY of the negatives. Since i do not write reviews for Home Theater Magazine, obviously everything cannot be positive, i have to throw in a couple of negatives about the product I'm hoping that there are DISCRETE codes for all the surround modes. This way all modes will be accessible at one touch of a button or a macro could be created to switch to the desired sound mode as per the selected input.

RAF,

you use a Pronto, are there discrete codes for a the surround/music modes that you are aware of?

I haven't found any discrete codes for the Pronto yet (but I have been busy and haven't really looked yet.) I'm relying on the inventiveness of others and will check remote central on occasion.

Please let us all know if you find any ccfs.

Incidentally, I used the LEARN feature of my Pronto to substitute my 950 for my old Denon 5700 functions. For modes I'm still using the 950 remote (naturally).

But I understand what you are trying to do.

Glad to hear your comment Marc, as I too have the Marantz AV550 and still in the waiting game for my 950(2/10 date). I will keep my RC2000 remote. Its been absolutly flawless and, as you know, not the quickest to program /but once in, its stays. Im glad to hear of the sonic improvements that I can look forward to. The 550 served me well, but a real bummer not having DTS . Thanks again!

RAF,
How is the 950/755 set-up sounding now that you've had it for a while??? How's the 755??
I'm considering the pair.

I've been living with a 950 for over three months and a 755 for over one month. Nothing has changed my opinion that this is a great combination. If you want to purchase new equipment with a warranty, in my opinion this combo or the 950/770 is hard to beat in terms of price/performance.

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 04/17/02) Now includes Outlaw 950 and Outlaw 755

I have only had my 950 for a few weeks but wanted to add a review for those still waiting. One of our own, from the Outlaw saloon, a young member who goes by the name Youngguns, came over to help unpack and set up my newest addition. He made quick work of the remote, navigating the setup menus, and completed options in no time. After waiting all these months for the 950, I was finally going to hear it. We slipped in the first C.D, Tomas Ornberg's BLUE FIVE, into the tray of the C555ES and waited. My first impression was great detail,lots of air in the treble frequencies and great depth. The soundstage was huge and everything was clean, nothing added, just the way it should sound. I was not disappointed. Especially for vocals and string instruments I really love the exceptional detail. As good as the 950 is for music, It just knocked me out for Home Theater. The combination of 950,750 and my Parasound filling up my Monitor Audio Gold Reference 60's, 10's, and center the room was full of sound. My two Energy XL18" subs were moving the room. I have watched GLADIATOR before, but it never sound like this, DTS ES is outstanding. There are hundreds of dvds titles in my collection, many with Dolby Surrond that can be made to sound rather good with the use of PLII. Our friends have brought over some of their favorite DVD titles,and have said things such as,were hearing things we didnt know were in the movie,the sound is great. The 950 worked without a glitch. Was it worth the wait,Yes. Are there any weaknesses, sure NO HEADPHONES, Such a simple thing to. But still the Outlaw 950 is unbeatable, to me, for the price. Its a bargain.

DOBEMAN,
Glad to hear you are enjoying your 950 and thanks for posting your review. The exceptional detail in music and dvds is something I have been very pleased with as well and I agree with your friends views on how they are hearing things they had not heard before.

power,
I see in your review that you have an ATI 1502 as I do also. How do you like it? I am using it power my front speakers.

------------------

my second review:
i was so angry several weeks ago because my rotel amp did not seem to work properly. it shut down by itself every half hour or so. it turned out to be the darn electricity in my dorm (anyone with a possible explanation?). i brought it home and it's worked flawlessly. anyway, i had a chance to test stereo music on the 950+1095 combo with my 4 year old JBL's G500s. i have to say that i never believed it when people said that their new (most of the time more expensive than their current one) piece of equipment blew them away or they could hear things that they had not been able to before. well i've changed. if you read my previous review, you might remember that i HAD to use my old sony receiver with an eq. otherwise, it was not listenable. to make it short, the 950&1095 combo has changed the way i feel about music/hometheater.
another test that i did several days ago was when i visited my sister and brother-in-law. i used their 5.1 speaker set (puny "pathetic" cubes) with the 950 and the rotel 1095. i used the jurasic park disc (with dts track) to test. the first difference i realized was the subwoofer. i sat about 7/8 feet away from the subwoofer and i could feel the wind in my face every time the t-rex took a step. yes it was that powerful. it wasn't the rotel amp that woke up the subwoofer for the first time because the subwoofer was directly connected to the 950. i listened to their system again today (funny receiver with the 5.1 speaker system) and could not feel anything out of the subwoofer! it is the same .1 channel but being handled differently on different pieces of electronic equipment.
over all, i'm glad that i had waited (over 6 months!) for the 950. now i don't know which piece is my favorite.. 950 or 1095

Just hooked up my new Pioneer Elite 47A DVD and played a few SACD's -- the thinness and sibilance I found with some CD's is totally GONE and replaced with the most amazing quality sound my walls have ever had the pleasure to experience. Could it be the recording of the CD's?

I am having a problem getting Dolby Digit playback from my digital (DD)cable box on both my 950 and 1050. Does that mean my signal is actually ProLogic rather than Digital? I've tried hitting the DD key on the remote but no luck. Can anyone shed any light here?

------------------
Denny

[This message has been edited by raceone (edited May 23, 2002).]

I've had my 950 for a few weeks so I thought this would be good time to add my $.02 here.

First off, here's my 5.1 set-up:

Outlaw 950 pre/pro
Outlaw 750 amp
Toshiba SD-5700 DVD Player (component & coax out)
Hughes DSS/DirecTivo (svideo & optical out)
X-Box Game Console (component & optical out)
Toshiba 57HX81 RPTV (component & svideo in)
Marantz CC3000 CD Player (analog & optical out)
Paradigm Ref Studio/40's (Main)
Paradigm Ref Studio/CC (Center)
Polk f/x500i (Surround - Rear wall mounted / bipole setting)
SVS 20-39PCi (Sub)
Outlaw/RadioShack/AR Cables
Generic Speaker Wire from Home Depot
Monster HTS1000 power strips / dedicated circuit
Calibrated w/ Sound and Vision HT Setup DVD

(Previous equipment H/K AVR500 receiver, Carver 705x amp, paradigm mini-monitor/adp170/cc350/ps1000)

Here are some of the titles I've been using with my system:

DVDs: Roger Waters In the Flesh Live, Eagles Hell Freezes Over DTS, David Gray Live At The Point, Dave Matthews Band Listener Supported, U2 Elevation Tour, Gladiator, Phantom Menace, Toy Story 2, Contact, Moulin Rouge, MIB, Matrix, What Lies Beneath, Baraka, Fight Club, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon...
CDs: Dave Matthews/Tim Reynolds Live, David Gray, Cabaret Diosa, Garth Brooks Double Live, Ani Difranco, Dave Brubeck, Ozomatli, Les Miserables, Barenaked Ladies, Tom Waits, Ravi Shankar, Nina Simone, Moby, Guster, Sting, Vangelis, George Winston, Ella Fitzgerald, Dido, Enya, Cake, Staind, Pink Floyd, Eric Clapton, Gypsy Kings...

Okay, lets start with ergonomics. I was very pleased with the design and build quality. It's similar to the Outlaw 1050, and matches well with my 750 Amp (Sorry, but I even like the logo and green button). For my taste, I am strictly a "form follows function" kind of person. I like simple and intuitive. The 950's front panel is clean and easy to use. The buttons are clearly marked, large, and nicely spaced (unlike my old receiver). Most of the controls are easy to use in a dark room. I think the rubberized volume control is a nice touch. The face plate does not look or feel cheap at all to me. The display is easy to read while from several feet away. The remote is similar to my old remote and I really don't care for it much. I will probably buy a different remote. I don't like that the programmable device buttons are tied to the source selection buttons. Maybe there is a way around this I'm not sure. There are also no 'direct' sub/center/surround trim +/- buttons on the remote. You have to hit TRIM and scroll through the channels, and then adjust. I also haven't found a sub on/off button. The OSD is very easy to navigate (my old h/k was a nightmare to set up). Calibrating channels with the 950 is a breeze. I would have liked to have the ability to remember calibration levels for each input (they are global as far as I can tell). As it is, I often have to raise and lower the sub trim to match what I am watching/listening to - Big pain. I would rather just be able to set it and forget about it.

The best feature of 950 is the sound that comes out of my speakers. I knew my receiver was the weak spot in my system, but I can't get over the difference the 950 has made. Movies are just amazing and CD music never sounded so smooth and sweet. Everything is so clear and clean .. all the hiss and background noise is gone (yes boys and girls..gone). DTS is a whole new experience (this was very weak in my old receiver). Dolby Digital processing is lovely. I was also surprised at how much better the bass and LFEs sounds. The entire 5.1 sound field is so well balanced and integrated. There is no way I could go back to my old setup. I have listened to a variety of CDs with both analog (bypass and stereo) and digital inputs (as well as the various DSP modes). All of them perform very well and at this point I really don't prefer one over the other. My H/K had Logic7 but I don't miss it. I use PLII modes occasionally, particularly for some live concert recordings or for the rare VHS movie (Star Wars Trilogy). The Auto Sound Format feature works well for me with my DVD player, however I will probably lock the format for DirecTivo as there is a slight audio delay when changing channels or fast forwarding through recorded programming. This is not really a big deal though. I can always set the mode from the remote for DD DSS programming.

This is actually my 2nd 950. My first 950 had a problem with the left main channel (It would spontaneously jump up in volume by about 10 db). The Outlaws quickly diagnosed the problem and overnighted me a replacement unit at their cost, and I shipped them back the bad unit (also at their cost). I have had no problems with the replacement unit. Such great customer service is a rare thing these days!

In summary, I am very happy with the 950 in my system and will not be sending it back. It isn't perfect, but I can live with its few minor weak points. The 950 delivers so much for so little $$$. It really is a steal at this price.

I'm bringing this thread back from the dead! I'll be receiving my 950 tomorrow and will post my impressions when I get it mated up with the lonely Parasound 1250 I've had for three months.

In the meantime, I thought we'd get this thread going again for all of the new/updated 950 owners to post their thoughts!

-JPancake

i ordered my 950 sept. 10th (yesterday) and received it today. i just finished connections and quick set-up. i chose to begin with james taylor's hourglass multi-channel SACD.

[long pause]

boblinds, if you're reading this, i should really have taken your advice and invested in those adult diapers....really.

you've all read the hundreds of reviews of all the pre/pros out there. you recall all the adjectives written by those reviewers who have laudable command of the english language.

i'll just tell you this...i simply laughed out loud. though i haven't had the pleasure of listening through a lex, anthem, krell, ead, etc., i can honestly say i have not heard better reproduction of recorded music in my memory.

over the course of the next 3 days, i'll run this 950 through the paces and offer my report friday evening.

in the meanwhile, someone should start a thread with lists of favorite software (dvd movies, dvd-a, sacd, cd, dts cd, etc.). for those of you who have an sacd player...get the hourglass sacd in multichannel.

see you all soon, and to everyone at outlaw...everything you've said to me in all my communications with you has been true over the last 6 months....thank you.

It would be a good idea to also mention what pre/pro or receiver you are replacing with your 950. It would help give a background and frame of reference.

Believe me now or believe me later.

Seriously, I couldn't be happier that you had the anticipated bladder bursting introduction to the Outlaw 950.

And as far as that laughing reaction is concerned, I think you'll be surprised how often and how long those kind of experiences continue. I continue to have moments during music and movie listening (which I now call Outlaw Moments) when I think, "Damn. That sounded JUST RIGHT."

In fact, if you check out the Demos forum here, I'm adding another Outlaw Moment to my thread.

Bob