#38361 - 08/19/02 07:30 PM
Re: Acurus/Mondial ACT3 Pre/Pro
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Desperado
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 1176
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As long as we're talking upmarket stuff anyone want to compare or contrast the Sunfire TG3, Ref30 and Anthem AVM20 with the above mentioned units?
The 950 issues are starting to worry me - I'm looking into alternates.
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Charlie
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#38362 - 08/19/02 07:37 PM
Re: Acurus/Mondial ACT3 Pre/Pro
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Gunslinger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 156
Loc: Vista, CA USA
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I just purchased a brand new Aragon SoundStage with a two year manufacturers warranty! $1700.00 including shipping. Boy, am I excited. Just like Christmas. Sorry Outlaws, I'll keep an eye on the upcoming products.
Mix
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#38363 - 08/19/02 07:46 PM
Re: Acurus/Mondial ACT3 Pre/Pro
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Desperado
Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 605
Loc: LA's The Place
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I wish I got in on that deal - it's definitely a no-brainer for $1500 - its MSRP was $4000.
That's an almost 4 year old pre/pro. Like cars and receivers, pre/pro's go down in value, quite a bit, with age. And unless it's updated, a pre/pro that old is somewhat out of date, compared to the newer models. I might get a 4 year old amplifier, to save some money. Amplifiers don't change as much. But pre/pro's and receivers (the pre/pro part of receivers, that is) do change with time, noticably. Good luck!
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#38364 - 08/19/02 07:58 PM
Re: Acurus/Mondial ACT3 Pre/Pro
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Gunslinger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 156
Loc: Vista, CA USA
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I think the 24 bit Crystal DAC's (one per channel) and the Class A analog preamp will sound just fine. And it has been upgraded to the latest formats. Also, it has individual levels and crossovers per channel, 6 channel input, three isolated power supplies with an unused fourth for future, RS232 input and output for upgrades, etc. I'll suffer through somehow.
Mix
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#38365 - 08/19/02 08:00 PM
Re: Acurus/Mondial ACT3 Pre/Pro
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Desperado
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 1176
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Originally posted by MixFixJ:
....I'll suffer through somehow..... I bet. Charlie
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Charlie
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#38366 - 08/19/02 08:30 PM
Re: Acurus/Mondial ACT3 Pre/Pro
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Gunslinger
Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 81
Loc: Upstate, New York
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Charlie, Yeah...I've been looking at the TG III and Anthem AVM 20. I'm not as worried about the Outlaw "issues", cause I truly believe that they will be resolved. WHEN is the big question and problem for me. I was at my local B&M store today. They carry Sunfire, but are phasing them out for the Anthem line !! Damn the bad luck !! They had a TG II (demo) but it lacks alot of the features I want. The TG III specs are awesome, and it appears quite flexible/upgradable. I'm confused on the AVM specs, but I'll figure it out. Mix, Congrats on your new X-mas present, and on the restoration of your mental health  I don't know if I'm right behind you, or not.
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#38367 - 08/19/02 08:39 PM
Re: Acurus/Mondial ACT3 Pre/Pro
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Desperado
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 1176
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I'm going to solve 90% of the outstanding 950 issues with outboard processing anyway, but the double bass on the analog inputs is a bit troubling since I'm seriously thinking about a DVD-A player. That one I don't think I can work around and I hear the Rotel and other Cirrus based units have a similar issue.
So the Motorola stuff looks better all the time (Ref30,Sunfire,etc) from that standpoint. B&K seems to be very loyal to their customers regarding upgrades and such.
OTOH if I only listen to the DD soundtracks on DVD-A the double bass is not an issue....
Charlie
Personally I wish Outlaw had gone 'straight through' with the analog inputs and offered a deep family discount on an ICBM for any that need it.
[This message has been edited by charlie (edited August 19, 2002).]
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Charlie
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#38368 - 08/19/02 08:42 PM
Re: Acurus/Mondial ACT3 Pre/Pro
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Gunslinger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 156
Loc: Vista, CA USA
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EFSIII,
Thanks. I just got tired of waiting, found what I hope is a good deal, and went for it. I know that there are others that have been on the waiting list longer than me, but with an open-ended ship date on the 950, I jumped. Of course I will be second guessing my decision until I have the new unit in my rack, but what are you gonna' do? I know that at the very least I got an incredible preamp, with highly-rated decoding, for a third the price of the MSRP. That's because it's last year's model. This years model has new cosmetics and 7.1 capability. The cool part is that the system architecture is setup so that everything except the jackfield can be upgraded. That includes software, firmware, and hardware. I hope it works as good in reality as it does on paper.
Good luck on whatever decision you finally make.
Mix
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#38369 - 08/19/02 09:43 PM
Re: Acurus/Mondial ACT3 Pre/Pro
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Desperado
Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 605
Loc: LA's The Place
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everything except the jackfield can be upgraded. That includes software, firmware, and hardware.
That's very cool. Is there a website to find out what's been upgraded (software and hardware) on the Aragon Soundstage over the years, since it first came out? Hopefully they'll have a DPL II upgrade soon, if you decide you wish to check out DPL II. Actually I kind of agree with those who say DPL II is over-hyped. But it's still an improvement over straight DPL.
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#38370 - 08/19/02 09:45 PM
Re: Acurus/Mondial ACT3 Pre/Pro
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Desperado
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Oregon
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Charlie said:
I'm going to solve 90% of the outstanding 950 issues with outboard processing anyway, but the double bass on the analog inputs is a bit troubling since I'm seriously thinking about a DVD-A player. That one I don't think I can work around and I hear the Rotel and other Cirrus based units have a similar issue. As I mentioned in another thread- I think this double bass issue is way overblown. Sure, bass management could have been handled differently. Or- they could have handled it like most others have by more or less ignoring the issue. I believe once you set up your 950 in your system you will not hear problems that one might theoretically expect. I don't- with large or small settings. The Outlaws said it better than I can in "The Official Model 950 Bass Management Thread" This is copyrighted, so I hope they don't mind me posting it again here:  Admin said: Bass management and the Outlaw 950
In the past week or so there has been a great deal of comment in the various on-line forums, as well is in our own Outlaw Saloon about bass management in general, and about how it is implemented in our Model 950 in particular. In order to set this matter straight, it is appropriate for us to answer your questions as to how – and why – we designed the Model 950 the way we did.
First, a few words of introduction. Bass management is one of the most complex parts of a multi-channel surround product. The enormous number of variables caused by different speaker types, different speaker configurations within a system and different personal preferences means that the number of possible options is mind-boggling. Indeed, Dolby itself has specified close to ten different configurations as to how bass management should be implemented. Add to that the fact that multi-channel systems are used at different times for “traditional” two channel listening, while at other times they are used in conjunction with the latest 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 digital systems. Finally, there is the issue of customer preferences: some consumers want every possible option, while others need the simplest possible configuration that fits the vast majority of “sub/sat” speaker systems used for home theater.
Our object here is not to debate, but to explain.
That being said, let’s start with our first product designed to provide an extended level of bass management, the ICBM. As you know, it was designed to overcome the bass response shortcomings in DVD-Audio and SACD players for listeners who do not have full range (20 Hz -20kHz) speakers, or for use in systems with inadequate or limited bass management circuitry in their preamps or receivers. Though it looks simple, the ICBM took months to develop due to all the things we had to consider: speaker types and driver sizes, and the decisions of the mixers creating the program material.
When the ICBM was released there were some purists who suggested that complex time delay issues would theoretically render the ICBM inaccurate and provide poor performance. However, our experience, backed by real world tests and opinions from knowledgeable industry experts and consultants told us otherwise. Though some would have had us post a lengthy explanation, we held back the urge to post a defense and waited for customers and reviewers to validate our product in real world applications. That proved to be the right move, as the ICBM is now the industry’s reference standard for flawless bass management. This was underscored most recently by a review of the ICBM in the current issue of Widescreen Review. Bottom line: the product performed just as we said it would, and the pre-release predictions of problems simply didn’t come to pass.
We now move forward to the Model 950. We designed the Model 950 so that it would provide enough bass management capability that most users would not need an ICBM, but note that we never designed it to BE an ICBM. Thanks to the use of both the new Cirrus Triple Crossover and an analog 80 Hz. cutoff for the 5.1 analog inputs, the Model 950’s bass management system is arguably one of the best in the world with accuracy and flexibility equaled by very few other products
Despite that, we now find ourselves confronted with reports of theoretical “double bass mistakes” when the Model 950’s 5.1 inputs are used. To some extent we could classify them in the same vein as the theoretical issues raised prior to the ICBM’s release, which as noted above, proved to be without merit. However, given the Model 950’s high profile and the fact that only a select few beta testers have had the opportunity to actually use a Model 950 to date, we do feel some responsibility to the Outlaw community to provide additional details, “straight from the Outlaw’s Hideout”.
First, the facts:
1. The Model 950’s “5.1 direct” inputs are a 100% analog, “straight wire with gain” type design with a permanent bass summing and filtering system.
2. If the rear panel bass management switch for the 5.1 inputs is “on” nothing below 80 Hz will be sent to the L/C/R/LS/RS (“Main”) speakers, while the subwoofer channel gets the dedicated LFE signal, as well as summed bass at 80 Hz and below from the main channels.
3. If the rear panel bass management switch for the 5.1 inputs is “off”, the “Main” speakers are sent a full range signal while the subwoofer channel continues to receive dedicated LFE signal, as well as summed bass at 80 Hz and below from the main channels.
For the vast majority of systems where “sub/sat” speaker systems are in use there is no problem. Simply turn the switch “on” and you get the advantage of analog bass management when using external sources such as a DVD-Audio or SACD player that does not have built-in bass management. No, not as good as a full ICBM, but more than enough to do the job for most people and certainly more than is provided for in 99% of the AV receivers or preamp/processors in the marketplace.
Where the great debate and confusion arises is when a system contains full range (or “large”) speakers and the user does want bass management. The Model 950 provides bass summing, which cannot be sidestepped, but it also provides a pass-through of the LFE channel, which is both desirable and essential. In fact, this is exactly what the ICBM does, although the ICBM adds the additional flexibility of individually selectable crossover points for each channel, as opposed to the fixed 80Hz crossover in the Model 950.
Given the almost universal praise for the ICBM, including a number of awards from the most critical home theater publications, we must presume that the design is correct. Otherwise, we most certainly would have had user concerns. Suffice it to say, we’ve had none, and the ICBM continues to serve as a reference standard. That leads us to ask an interesting question: If the design used in the ICBM, combines both summed bass and the LFE channel at the subwoofer output, is praised, why is the same design, when applied in the Model 950 being damned? It just doesn’t make sense.
The fact is that there is no standard for use of the LFE channel. There is no accepted injection level of bass or no frequency response cutoff. (Some mixers actually use the LFE channel as a collector for summed bass from the other channels because they realize that with today’s small systems there is no other way to deliver low frequencies).
The design choice we made for the Model 950’ 5.1 bass management system fits the real world needs of all but a few consumers. We recognize that there will always be customers who do not want bass summing, and there are a number of workarounds for them. One is to reduce the subwoofer output, although we never recommend fully turning it off. A second approach is to use the crossover frequency adjustment on the subwoofer and to as low as it will go. This would address the theoretical issue of double bass since the LFE is typically extreme bass when it is appropriately mixed in.
We have seen statements claiming that some recordings have LFE with wider ranges, and that further blurs this entire illusive area. An example: If a recording or sound track injects LFE all the way to 400Hz, or as in the case of the full bandwidth claims in some Chesky recordings, where should you send the LFE? Certainly, not a subwoofer. Our approach has been to identify the vast majority of DVD-Audio and SACD recordings, and most of them (and certainly the best), have delivered LFE in a frequency range below 50 Hz. The Model 950 beta testers have a wide variety of speaker systems including “full range” systems with subs. They have reported fabulous results with no detectable double bass problems. Their reports are posted in this forum and others, and we invite you to read them for yourself.
We realize that there are some of you who simply will not accept this explanation, but that reminds us of another hotly debated topic about the Model 950 that appears to have run its course, the discussion about a combined delay time setting for the rear and side surround speakers. Many complained that there would be improper imaging or a breakdown of the surround field. Yes, a theory. However, in practice the internal and external beta testers ran tests that confirmed what we knew all along: there were no differences detected. Even the strongest critics, who swore it would sound terrible, reported that the imaging and sound fields were properly reproduced.
The reality is that the bass management system in the Model 950 offers flexibility not found in any comparably priced processor or receiver, not to mention most others with significantly higher price tags. However, we also realize that there are some who would remain skeptical and take shelter in theoretical debates. Our suggestion is that you put theory aside and take the logical, practical approach: listen to the Model 950 in your own home, with your own system. Try it for 30 days and if you are satisfied with the complete bass performance in all modes of this unit, then of course you are free to return it for a full refund.
Yes, there will always be a very small (though perhaps vocal in a manner that is out of proportion to their size) number of users to whom the approach we took is not acceptable. That’s fine, and we are investigating a number of different bass management approaches for future products. However, most of these will involve higher cost, and thus they are probably more appropriate for our future products that aimed at a more “ ‘phile” audience. For the overwhelming majority of our customers we are confident that the path we took is correct.
We welcome the debate, but the proof is in the listening. We suggest you that you listen to a 950 as it is presently configured and we believe that you will be pleasantly surprised. You’ll have the opportunity to do that soon, as we intend to resume shipments of the Model 950 on April 29th.
Regards,
The Outlaws
This message is Copyright (c) 2002 by Outlaw Audio, Inc., All Rights Reserved. We reserve the right to enforce this copyright when the document is linked to any site we deem inappropriate. (Bold type mine.) I hope they start shipments soon so that all can decide if there is a problem in reality with double bass in their own systems.
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