Hi guys. I have been listening to my 950 for about a month now. I really love the sound of my HT these days. My questions is in regards to 2 channel stereo. The sound the 950 produces in this modes seems lacking. Its sounds tinny and no oomph. I cannot adjust the bass to play low enough for my towers. I can hook up my old carver stereo preamp and my speakers sing with so much clarity and bass even at low volumes. I must be missing a setting because the sound quality from the 950 doesn't do justice to all the reviews I have read about its musical abilities. Any recommendations? I have the bass set a max and my speakers to large.

I am also playing with the idea of hooking up my old preamp for stereo music since it sounds so much better. Do you guys have any suggestions on how I can hook it up to share the same amp and do an A/B switch kind of thing. Or maybe I can hook it up to the 950 as an AUX system???

Thank you in advance for any suggestions you may have.

Try analog bypass or get another pre/pro.... oh hell, I just can't do it.

First, do you have a subwoofer? If not, then you should set the crossover for your front channels to 40Hz, the lowest setting and your subwoofer setting to OFF. Also, try using the analog bypass mode.

Try that and get back to us.

[This message has been edited by merc (edited June 30, 2002).]

If you can't get the 950 to alone to sound the way you want here is onw way to incorporate both preamps.

Connect all your surround sources (VCR, DVD, satellite, etc) to the 950.

Connect your 2 channel analog sources (CD) to your Carver.

Hook the 2 preouts of your Carver to the amps you want to use for your mains. Hook the preouts on the 950 for the center and surrounds to those speakers' amps. Lastly hook the main preouts of the 950 to an input on the Carver.

When you want to listen to 2 channel, you can leave the 950 turned off.

For surround/digital processing, turn both preamps on and set the Carver's input to the input used to connect the 950. The only tricky part is putting the Carver's volume at a repeatable point. That same volume point needs to be used to calibrate the 950 and for regular playback. That's it!

But I agree with merc, make sure you have your settings right before you abondon the 950. I hope to get my 950 someday to see how I like its 2 channel performance in "analog bypass" mode. I really don't want to extra complexity (and low WAF) of the 2 preamp approach.

Let us know how you make out.

Thank you all for the responses. Yes, I have a sub but for the hell of it I tried lowering the xover point to 40hz and setting the sub to off, it sounds the same. I have also tried turning on the bypass but all it seems to do is lower the volume and I have raise the volume more to hear the same level.

The sound just doesn't seem full and doesnt give the oomph that my speakers need. The mids and highs are nice and clear but no bass.

In regards to the other suggestion about getting another pre/pre, I actually thought about it but I'm past the 30 day return and I'm debating if I want to go through the hassle of selling this unit. I figured I will just have to keep tinkering with it to see if I can make it work.

The other suggestion about hooking up the other preamp sounds complicated for me..hehe. Do they make switch boxes for audio inputs? Maybe I can put a switch between the amp and both preamps??

Thanks again

RMBG - I've had exactly the same experience with my 950. For some reason DD and DTS is wonderfully full and accurate sounding, and 2 channel even in bypass (though an improvement) sounds tinny and unmusical.

I've looked into some tube line stage stuff, but haven't found anything satisfactory. My options are:

1) try to find a audiophile grade A/B switch to integrate a 2 channel pre

2) use the sony TAP9000ES and either use its preamp or easily connect another 2 channel pre to it; or

3) move to the Rotel 1066 which everyone seems to agree has a warmer sound.

While the Rotel would seem to be the simplest solution, I'd want to audition it first to make sure it did the job with 2 channel (which at its pricepoint is not a forgone conclusion).

If I had the $2500 plus to invest, the Anthem AVM 20 does great with 2 channel AND multichannel. But if I did that, I'd never be able to afford a FP projector...

Ah feel yer pain.

HT,

Both of my friends own the 1066 and the stereo mode sounds great! I am about to make the same decision myself on the 1066 unfortunately cuz i had high hopes for the 950, now the problem is just trying to sell this unit. Thanks for your input.

Ricky

RM - Have you heard the 1066 in 2 channel, or have you just heard that it sounds great? Of all the personal reviews I've heard on the 1066 very has been said about how 2 channel sounds, which concerned me.

I'm also still not sure whether or not the 1066 has real analog passthrough seperate from its 6.1 inputs.

But if you've heard the 1066 in 2 channel, what are the sonic differences you've noticed? Please!!

I just found a Rotel dealer that has them in stock, will go $1300 AND give me a 30 money back. Then again, if I give back my 950 who knows when I could expect to get another if the Rotel doesn't work out.

By the way, I'm sure there are many on this board and others that would be quite happy to take your 950 off your hands.

If you have buddies with 1066's, I'd start thinking of a way to bribe them into bringing one over to hook up to your system, see how it sounds compared to the 950 on your gear. That way you could determine if it's a better choice for your needs without finding a dealer who has 1066's in stock and will let you try one at home.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Yes I have heard the 1066 and 2 channel sounds much fuller. Imaging for me was better too, with the 950 I can tell that the music is in front of me. With the 1066, the music seems to be all around you but thats just my humble opinion though. Sound can be so subjective.

With Movies, I couldn't tell the difference between my friends setup and mine.

I'm afraid to hook up their 1066 on my system because if it sounded better, I wouldn't be able to live with my system and would get a 1066 that day... I think discussion has made me decide to get the 1066 for sure. It was in my thoughts and I just needed a little prod. hehe

Thanks guys!

Since you say the 950 sounds good in the mids and the treble but has insufficient bass, in two channel stereo, another option to consider is to increase the bass level on the 950 for all two channel sources, or use a subwoofer and increase the 950's subwoofer level whenever you play two channels. If that solves the problem, you might find you can keep your 950 and won't have to get something else for two channel playback.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 02, 2002).]

Will,

Thanks for the response. I have the bass level at max for the CD input. As far as I know thats the only adjustment for bass levels. I prefer not to use my sub for 2 channel stereo because my speakers are more than capable to generate enough bass for music. I just cant understand why I can't get more bass from the 950. I have been reading reviews that say it sounds awesome musically thats why I'm perplexed. I really don't want to go through the hassle of selling this but I don't think I can live with the stereo sound the way it is.

Thanks,
Ricky

Do you always need the sub in order to get acceptable bass in HT? Are you able to get bass in 5.1 (or 7.1) when you do not use a subwoofer?

The problem isn't the analog bass management toggle switch, in back, is it? It filters out everything under 80 Hz, and redirects it to the sub, when you play stereo CD's using your analog input.

Will,

Yes, I get really good bass from the sub in movies. I think that bass mgmnt switch only applies to 5.1 direct input from other sources. I tried that switch anyways for the hell of it and it didn't make any difference.

I have big towers and it's capable of handling bass on 2 channel stereo. They sounded great in my old setup, I had an old carver stereo preamp. The problem is that the bass coming out using the 950 is not even half of what the carver had. So it sounds really thin and wussy. Do you know what I mean? I was thinking last night of just going with an audiophile quality A/B switch if it's cheaper than buying a Rotel. Do you know of any good brands?

thanks
Ricky

rmbg, unfortunately I can't offer anything constructive here, only that with my 950, the bass is one of the best features. I previously had a Kinergetics/Chiro pre-pro, so this 950 replaces some pretty good company. Either you:
A. Have a defective unit
B. Have a faulty set-up
C. Have some other defective piece (amp, speakers, etc.
There is no reason you have to use a separate preamp to get your bass. Recheck your setup, maybe contact Outlaw for a replacement unit.
Mike

Have you tried defining your main speakers as Large, not small for CD 2-channel playback? Sorry, just noticed you stated Large in your first post.

If you use 2-channel analog bypass for CD (analog-out from CD player), set the mains to Large, set the sub to yes, and set the xover to whatever, you will get "double-bass", i.e. the same bass frequencies from both your mains and the sub.

[This message has been edited by bstan (edited July 02, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by bstan (edited July 02, 2002).]

The lack of bass does seem like an odd problem, especially if you've cranked the bass up to full. Have you given the Outlaws a call and picked their brains any yet? I would suspect that they've been reading this thread, and they may have some ideas to offer.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Guys, RM's problems are exactly the same as I've experienced. I think when he refers to lack of bass, he's hearing a lack of timbral fullness like I am. In other words when you hear a piano recording, its as if the piano is set up at the beach instead of the concert hall where all the fullness and richness are gone and you just hear the surface tinkling of the keys.

I HAVE tried bass to full and engaging the sub. Even though I have a very musical sub, it doesn't make up for the severe lack of fullness in the sound but does help in some cases.

I also have full range speakers capable of tight and deep bass, so having to engage the sub points to problems elsewhere. When I had my cheapo Rotel pre/pro, the sound was very full and I never had the sub engaged.

Its just so weird that DD and DTS sound so full and "right" and 2 channel sounds so thin and "wrong". Maybe it is a defect we're both experiencing since I don't see how anyone could be satisfied with the 2 channel sound as I'm hearing it. Unless either they are used to poor quality components, or if they only listen to music in DLPII or NEO6 (which does give a fuller sound, but mucks up the presentation).

Scott - if you're listening - could it be that we both have defective units?

rmbg,

Your speakers are rolling off a portion of the last octave of bass which could cause the type of spectral tilt in signal reproduction you are describing. We've looked at the manufacturer's specifications on these speakers and you are down 6 dB at 30 Hz. I would encourage you to try setting these speakers to "small" and use the 60 Hz crossover, to allow your sub to reproduce this last octave. I would suspect that movies would sound equally thin without a sub.

HT Crazed please feel free to e-mail me more information about your setup so we can see if you are having a problem.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scott (edited July 02, 2002).]

Ricky (rmbg),

Since you have towers that handle low bass when you used your old (non-950) pre/pro, and since stereo with no sub on the 950 has poor bass but fine highs and mids, I wonder how the 950 sounds on 5 channels when the 950 is told NOT to use your subwoofer. In other words, when using DD or DTS with no sub and the mains set to full, does the bass come out, or is it still missing?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 02, 2002).]

Will,

When I use the 5 stereo mode without the sub, it still sounds the same from those towers. As an experiment I asked my friend to bring in the rotel 1066. I tried my carver preamp, onkyo 575 and the rotel. All three can produce the fullness that the 950 is missing. Even the measly 75W channel onkyo. I haven't tried listening to movies without the sub, I will try that tonight.

I agree with HT, opting to use a sub when the towers are more than capable of producing the sound is pointing to a different problem. I also don't understand how the reviewers can rave about the musicality with this type of sound. This too leads me to believe that there must be some kind of defect.

Very good.
Were you able to listen to your friend's Rotel 1066 in the exact same setup in your own home, as the 950? The only reason I ask is to be sure that the only component to change is the pre/pro. As you know, the amp and speakers and the room itself should be the same.

yes, I had him bring it over to my house last night. We swapped all the units using the same amps. Of course, we calibrated each unit prior to doing the testing. All the units seems to have more range in the bass settings. The bass settings on the 950 is barely noticable when we listened to the same songs and playing with the levels from min to max. Even worst with stereo bypass.

Thanks,
ricky

Scott - I don't have a specific email address for you but sent to customerservice@outlawaudio.com. Hopefully it will at least get forwarded to you.

Thanks,
HTC

HT, I'll be interested on the results of your tests since it sounds like we have similar problems. I will continue to play around with my stuff and let you know if anything changes.

thanks,
Ricky

rmbg - I'll let you know. And by the way, other than the fullness, how did the 1066 sound in 2 channel? Air, imaging, realism of the instruments, degree of musical involvement etc.

Beyond hearing the fullness of sound the 950 lacks, were you able to listen further to see if the 1066 really did a good job with 2 channel?

The reason I ask is that I gave a short listen to a 1066 when it first came out and wasn't impressed with 2 channel. Then again the dealer was using surrounding equipment that was across the board lower quality than my setup, plus the 1066 was fresh out of the box without burn in.

Could you swap pre/pro's with your buddy for a couple of days to see if the sounds something you can live with?

Thanks,
HT

HT,

I have been listening to my friends rotel in stereo every weekend since he got it, 2 months ago. I can definitely live with the sound I hear. I may not be as picky as you in regards to musicality but the instruments sounds so much clearer and separate. The music seems be around you and not in front of you. I'm not good at explaining this but when you listen to an orchestra for example, you are given this sense of hearing the instruments where they should be.

I have tried his rotel in my system but only for a few hours. To me, it sounded the same as his. Actually it sounded better through my towers. I haven't tested the HT performance though so I don't know how it would match my system. Man, the more we discuss this, the less that 400 difference seems to be

crazed-- This should read "MY (YOUR) 950 lacks..." because MY 950 (MINE) does NOT lack "fullness of sound". Here's hoping you can get this resolved soon or get something else so that you can start enjoying the music once again.:;

Rick,

Like you, I have floor standing towers and a 950. I think you're in Glendale CA and I'm in west LA. If you'd like to visit some time let me know, we can see if the problem you hear with your 950 in your system, can be duplicated with my 950 in my system.

Will. I really appreciate the offer and I will definitely take you up on it. I will be around Sta. Monica this weekend to visit my sis. You can email me at r_m_b_g@yahoo.com if you are available and I can stop by for a quick visit.

Thanks again,
Ricky

In fact it should have been "our" 950's since I was directing the post to RM. And to qualify it even more I would add "lack of fullness only in 2 channel". That's the weird part - in DPLII, NEO6, DD, and DTS the sound is fine. Only when it goes into stereo or audio by-pass does it sound tinny and just plain wrong.

rmbg - give Scott a call. He mentioned the possibility of a fix down the road.

Ricky,

You have email. Bring your 950 if you can. I'm curious if your 950 will sound the same or different than my 950, in my system.

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 03, 2002).]

rmbg-
I know this sounds strange, but try setting the crossover on your fronts to 80Hz or higher. I had the same problem when I had my 950 (I returned it). I first noticed this when playing the Eagles dvd in DTS. With my fronts (NHT 2.5i's) set to LARGE, sub set to NONE, and xover set below 80 Hz, there was a definite lack of bottom end. Setting the xover above 80 restored the bass. I know this doesn't make sense, but it worked for my setup. I'm not sure, but i think I had the same problem playing CD's with the 950 in STEREO mode. I think there might be a bug in the triple xover software. There was a mention of this same issue in a previous thread("need help setting xover"). Give it a try. Good luck.

Ricky (rmbg),

Haven't heard back from you yet...

I agree with Mo. Yesterday, I was playing around with the x-over settings and lo and behold the bass just blew me away. Originally, I had the fronts set at 40hz and changed it to 60hz. This seems to make all the difference in the world.

Has anyone called Outlaw on this issue?

Hello,

Ricky is in contact with Scott on this.

Ricky was at my place yesterday, and it was a pleasure to meet him. We did not hear and could not duplicate the problem Ricky heard on his 950 on his system, using my 950 in my system.

But we heard something I did not previously know about, with my 950's bass management in stereo. That topic is discussed here: http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000421.html
Will

Yes, I am currently working with Scott on this. He has been really helpful and patient with me. Thanks scott.

This is more of a question than a reply, but it is relevant to this post and others I have read. Is the 950 is complicated to use? Someone is always having to reset crossovers, set speakers from small to large and back again, change inputs/output connections, and even using other equipment to supplement the 950 in order to get the sound quality they desire.

If I purchase a 950 will I have to change wiring and settings every time I want to listen/view a different format?

When auditioning other brands of AVR's and pre/pro's I did not notice any problem when switching between modes and sources.

It just seems that there are many posts with users having these problems.

P.S. I still hope Outlaw brings out a monoblock amp. Thanks in advance.

I think (speaking from my experience using a 950) that a lot of the posts here about messing with crossovers or modes is due to people experimenting. I've gone long stretches of time using the 950 without doing anything except turning it on, selecting the desired input (cable, DVD, CD), and adjusting the volume to the circumstances if necessary.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Boscofats, You can easily set it and forget it, its just with the triple crossover feature many people like to experiment what sounds better as Gonk mentioned. Also I think the most commonly brought up setting problem is the subwoofer. Instead of being able to remember different levels for each sound-field you must manually (on the remote) change it. I did not have this option on my previous receiver so I don't miss it but I can see how it would be beneficial.
So to Answer your question in a simple way, you can take the 950 out of the box, calibrate it once and start enjoying. If you like to tweak, there is plenty to play with but if you just want great sound done simple it will do that too.

Oops, Double post, but I did flip the page... Coincidence? Let the conspiracy theories fly.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited July 08, 2002).]

Jed is correct. But Boscofats asks if this is complicated to do. Here's my experience with adjusting the subwoofer level on the 950.

You've got to press AUD and then TRIM on the remote something like 8 times to change the subwoofer volume. If you press TRIM once too often or once to few times, you'll be affecting something besides the subwoofer volume. You can create a macro do the 8 TRIM button presses but with a macro the remote sends the instructions rather slowly to the 950, so you have to wait (and wait it seems) before you can increase or decrease the sub level. Maybe it can be done less slowly on some other remote than the one that comes with the 950, but on the 950's remote, it's slow.
On many other pre/pro's and receivers you only have to press a button or two on the remote, and no macro is needed, in order to adjust (without waiting) the subwoofer level.

It takes me around 5 seconds to get to where I need to adjust the sub trim. The number of buttoms can be reduced if you go the revearse way through some of the menus. However this will only save you a second or two. To me it is not that huge of an inconvience.

TPS

….she’s just a GIRL….who let that girl in…Yuck cooties….

I can do it

Hey Ricky,

Since I'm in the same boat as you, let me know what you come up with re fixing your sound in 2 channel.

When you were at Will's house, did you swap in your 950 to see if it was doing the same in Will's set up?

Also did you listen to the 950 at relatively low volumes at Wills house? I find that the 950 does open up at higher than polite listening levels. But at medium to lower levels is where I find the sound severly constricted, and where I do most of my listening..

HT,

Ricky didn't bring his 950 to my house. If he wants to come back and bring his own 950, he's certainly welcome to do so, but I think he and Scott are already close to a solution.

Will

HT,

Yeah, I could definitely hear a huge difference between Will's system and mine even and relatively low volumes. I didnt get a change to bring my 950 because I still had a lot of places to go that day. I will definitely let you know how it goes.

Thanks again Will,
Ricky

[B]

I've found that rather than bother with the complicated task of changing the subwoofer level, it's much easier to use the tone control to bring the bass up or down. Plus, assuming you leave the sub at a calibrated level that matches the mains/satellites, using the tone control will produce a much more even frequency response curve. If you goose or cut the sub too far, you're creating a big swing in response at the crossover point.

Wow,

This is depressing. I returned my 950 because the second one just didn't sound "right" (I had my first one replaced). I was experiencing many of the same things Ricky and HTcrazed were, especially in stereo mode. It now looks as if both units I received were defective. Thats a bummer because I really liked many of the features.

Oh well, maybe I'll buy again if they ever get this stuff sorted out.

Mike

so has it been determined that the bass problem in 2 channel experienced by these 2 is defective and not inherent in the 950 design? heck, i'll just keep my denon receiver and buy a high end pre-amp with a surround processor loop! the 950 on paper looks great, but since i'm combining music and ht into one system, like most 950 purchasers, 2 channel audio is very important.

-dan

I've had absolutely no problems whatsoever with my 950 in either two channel or multichannel audio. I think all this talk about its two channel deficiencies is over-hyped.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

On my particular case, I believe that the lack of bass I experienced is most likely a defect in the unit I received. I did not hear the same thing when I listened to both of Will's 950s. The difference was night and day.

rmbg,

So what is going on with your unit? Are you getting a replacement to try or are you returning yours? What did the Outlaws say?

My second 950 sounds different than the original one. Part of the difference may be the hiss fix. Don't know if my second unit has the FINAL hiss fix. Anyway, it would be nice to know what's being changed in the 950.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited August 06, 2002).]

Applejelly,

I am still waiting for the new units to ship out. I am getting a replacement.

I wonder if the final 950 is supposed to sound different from the original 950, other than reducing the hiss. Will it sound any less harsh?

I have a stupid question. When I listen (watch) DVDs they are much softer than CDs. Comfortable listening volume is about -20 db for CD but at least 0db, maybe +5 db for DVDs. It doesn't seem to matter whether I decode as dolby digital or another souround format. Both plaers are form Sony, both are connected to the 950 via digital interconects (from Outlaw). Is there an adjustment somewhere to boost output level for DVD?

DVD's are generally recorded at a lower level than CD's or video tapes. Try putting a CD in your DVD player and listening to it -- you'll most likely want to use about the same volume level that you use for the CD player.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Unfortunately, no.

Yes there is. It's called the "volume" knob.

Thanks...I'll try playing both (CD/DVD)in the same machine to check that out. The reason I asked about the bias adjustment was that I figured that distortion would increase as you near the top edge of output. The 950 I think tops out at +10. Most amps (and I thought preamps too) really start to distort at their limits. Does these replies suggest that preamps are linear all the way to the top of their rated output?

I see the same thing on a Sony TA-E9000ES.

-50 dB for music CDs (maybe 10 o'clock on the volume dial), and -30 or so for DVDs (maybe 11:30). (I have medium sensitivity speakers.) One issue might be the noise floor of a unit, if it's a function of the volume knob setting. (On the Sony, never noticed that. I wouldn't think it would be a big deal on the Outlaw either.)

Another issue might be low sensitivity speakers combined with underpowered amps. Maybe then you'd see a difference between CDs and DVDs. Distortion and such, or just an inability to play a movie soundtrack as loud as you wanted.

Thanks for the replies. I guess there is a difference between DVD and CD in output level. My speakers are not overly efficient (Monitor Audio) but I'm not that underpowered (B&K 140/ch X 6).Even doubling the power would only get me 3 more db, and the difference between CD and DVD appears to be about 20 db. I guess I'll just have to crank it!

Is the sound level from the CD player the same on the 950, when you switch between analog and digital interconnects? Likewise, is the sound level from the DVD player the same on the 950 when you switch between analog and digital interconnects, when playing a CD?

More info. I played a CD in thr DVD player. Used the digital coax connection. In stereo mode( or bypass) it's a lot (20 db) louder than when decoded in prologic, or any of the surround formats. Why should this be true?