OK, I'm sure this is going to bring a storm of replies and generate a lot of heat here in the forums. Please realize up-front that is not my intent; I am merely reporting what I am hearing here on my 950.

After hooking up my system last night, I had my head near one of my front speakers and I noticed it hissing quite a bit more than I was used to. I figured maybe it was my amplifiers, and that it was probably time to upgrade them.

Flash forward to today, where I decided to investigate this issue a bit further. The hiss is still there, and I think I've actually tracked down two distinctly different noise floors on the 950. Below are my observations.

Working with my Onkyo DVD player connected optically to the 950 via Optical Input #1, we begin.

Turning on the 950 fresh, with the volume set to -80dB, I hear a very very faint hissing and a very slight upper harmonic of a 60Hz hum. This is what I considered the normal noise level for my old system (dodgy power, and I live within a couple of miles of a fairly powerful FM transmitter). It's barely audible when I'm sticking my ear within 1 foot of the tweeter.

Turning the volume up to -30dB, I begin to play a music CD. The 950 is set to Stereo mode. The trouble starts when I pause the DVD player. The hiss coming from the speakers has increased dramatically from the "cold start" condition. This hiss is audible from several feet away from the speakers. If my room is quiet enough, I can hear it slightly from my sweet spot about 12 feet away.

Repeating the experiment using my CD player. It's hooked up to optical #2 on the 950. Also set to "Stereo" mode. Again, starting up the 950 "cold" set at -80dB, the noise floor is what I consider to be normal for my system.

I start the CD playing. The volume is still set at -80dB. The first "click" on the volume knob to -79dB kicks on the hiss. It goes from what I consider to be normal to something much higher than normal. The hiss does not get louder, even as I take the gain all the way up to 10dB.

The hiss does not go away by dropping the volume back down to -80dB, nor does it go away by stopping the CD player. I _can_, however, make it "reset" by flipping to a source with an analog input. This drops the noise floor back down, and I can repeat the above experiment to bring it back up again.

The very last experiment goes back to the DVD player. I added an analog connection from the back of the DVD to the DVD analog inputs on the 950. I started up the 950 cold again, with the volume at -80dB.

Leaving the volume at -80dB, I started the CD. Same "normal" level of noise. I then hit "Stereo Bypass," thinking this might work around the noise. As I clicked from -80dB to -79dB, the noise level still increased!

Another point of information is that the "mute" function does not affect this noise floor at all.

I'm not sure what to make of all of this yet, but it's the first really significant problem that could take this product down from the stratospheric heights which it has obtained in some reviews so far.

If I get ambitious this evening, I'll grab my oscilloscope and see if I can get some noise floor measurements. Stay tuned.

My fingers and toes are crossed for good news.

LQQK

There's a conversation going on on HTF on the same topic. A few folks are participating. Good discussion so far.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=662611&t=6826#post662611

I just ran the same sets of experiments with my DVD player hooked up to optical1, input mode set to stereo, and CD as source. Sure enough, I could hear the hiss when the CD was paused, and I could hear the hiss on the switch from -80dB to -79dB as well.

The hiss was faint and I don't think I could hear it from more than a few feet away, but it's definitely there. (Prior to upping the volume from -80 to -79, I couldn't hear any background noise, which is usual for my system, so the hiss is obvious, especially when the CD is paused, or skipping between tracks, etc.)

I didn't try any of the other experiments but I have little doubt the results would be the same.

I've run the same test and noticed a louder then normal noise floor. I actually had one of the first shipments from the beginning of April and I also noticed a louder amount of hiss coming from my speakers as soon as I plugged it in. I was running a Yamaha RX-V3000 with a Parasound 2205 amp and I never noticed any hiss, even at really high volume. However, with both of my 950s, April 4th and the new April 30th shipment I do notice much more hiss coming from my speakers. It is definitely coming from the outlaw. I have run numerous test and even switched back to my Yamaha. I'm not sure if it is normal or a problem. Overall, I'm very happy with the 950, however for a product that is supposed to be ultra clean, I find it odd to have way more hiss then my receiver.

Dan

Anyone try a coax DVD input yet?

Also, interesting data point about the TA-E9000ES I have. You can *set* the connection (opt, coax, or analog), or have the unit "auto detect" for it. If you *set* the connection, the noise floor is a lot lower than "auto detect".

In either case, can't hear it at my listening position though. (8 ft away.)

Hopefully the Outlaws can address this...

Prefect,

Let us know what the oscilloscope says. I've got my dvd hooked up via coax and can hear what sounds like a 60hz buzz to me, when the dvd or cd is paused. Of course, I have everything connected with crappy wires (temporarily), a not so glamorous surge protector (also temporary) and I have never mapped the circuits on this house. AFAIK it could be line noise.

Thanks,

Allen

Well, I fear the oscilloscope is the wrong tool for the job. I fiddled around for a bit last night and couldn't show anything conclusive with the 'scope.

So I'm going to see if I can call in a favor or two and get an Audio Precision One audio analyzer on loan for an evening.

Over on HTF we have another person reporting that they can replicate my experiment, and another person claiming they can't hear any hiss at all.

For what it's worth, the speakers I've got hooked up to the 950 (PSB Stratus Silver i's) are less sensitive than the speakers I used to use with my old preamp & amp (Klipsch KG-3.2's).

Perfect,

You should be able to see the noise relatively easy with the oscilosope on the pre-outputs (I'm not sure if they have to be loaded though). It will not be calibrated so you won't be able to tell how much noise is there in dB, but you'll see it. When the volume is at -80, you'll see almost straight line on the scope. When you turn to -79, you should see the noise to appear. Set the scope to around 50-500mV range. It would be more interesting of course to connect a spectrum analyzer to see what the noise actually looks like. I mean, is it totally random or has some shape.

If the noise does not depend on the volume setting, I wonder where is it coming from. From someplace after the preamps? After the volume control? Strange.

FWIW, the hiss on my 950 has a measurable maximum sound level of around 54dB on my radio shack meter. (Meter set to its lowest setting of 60dB, lowest setting, and the needle ranges between -10 and -6.) But that's with the sensor immediately in front of the tweeter. At a foot away, it's too low for the meter to detect.

I never noticed this until I read this thread. I played a 2 channel stereo cd this moring. I hear this noise, only when my ear is pressed against the fabric of my speaker covers. Virtually 1 inch away and closer. I hear nothing from my listening position at all. Also when I pause the cd there is no loud noise heard. Volume also doesn't increase or decrease this floor standing noise. I have had other recievers that had the same noise. I don't think this will be an issue......

Steven Simon
HTF Administrator

I can confirm that this is the case... using my Sony CD player on optical input. The noise is not very noticeable, but registers at about 54dB with my Radio Shack meter half an inch from a tweeter. It does not seem to be volume control dependent. It is also nearly inaudiable from a foot or two away.

I doubt it is my interconnects because I'm using the Outlaw PCA from the 950 to the 755 and the Outlaw PDO from the Sony to the 950. It could be in the power, though; I'm only using a cheap power strip and I have no idea what's going on in the walls of my apartment. Most likely, though, it's coming from the 950.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I cannot hear any hiss in mine. My family is going out later, I will get the house dead silent and try again then.

But right now, with reasonable silence, I can hear no sign of hiss.

I have all dedicated power for my HT, all shielded IC's and am using a coax digital.

BB

I noticed this right from the start when I checked for hum. I also noticed it completly goes away if you switch sources until the volume is changed or a signal is applied. I was happy I didn't have any hum.
Maybe it's from the volume control IC. Since we hear it when the analog bypass is selected that rules out noise from the digital signal path(SPDIF,DSP,DAC).
Switching digital cables should never change a noise threshold anyway, it's digital.

I've never been able to see hiss on a scope. I used MC33284's in my filters(Burr-Brown rep never gave me any samples, jerk!) and they hiss quit a bit.
Overall my hiss is about the same as my old system. I can't hear it accross the room, only right next to the speaker.
It's more noise than I expected.

OK, I've rechecked mine with the house silent.

There is an extremely low level of hiss. No hum at all. As described by others, this is only audible with my head RIGHT AGAINST the grill cloth. It is as low as the level of hiss I get from my Norh preamp, which is virtually none.

If I had my TV on, the noise from it would be far more noticeable (flyback transformer whine, etc.).

So, either something in your environment/system is affectinng your 950, or there is a problem with your unit, or their manufacturing parameters are unacceptably variant.

hmmmmmm.

BB

I've used my 950(s) for 120+ hours in the last month since the first one arrived, and never noticed this hissing.

After seeing this thread pop up, I went and tried to reproduce it. I can hear the hiss about 3 inches away from the panel on my MLs, but only after I've turned off everything in the room (projector, TV, fans, A/C, halogen lights).

It's definately something in the 950, because if you switch digital input modes, it disappears until the volume is adjusted, and there seem to be other things that make it come and go.

It's certainly not loud enough in my system to be a problem. It's completely undetectable from 1ft away from the speaker.

- Mike

[QUOTE]I was running a Yamaha RX-V3000 with a Parasound 2205 amp

I have a Yamaha RX-V2095 and a Parasound 2205. I've wondered about what diferences I would find if I switched to the Outlaw 950 - ie - Is is a definite improvement, mostly the same, or worse sounding than the Yamaha as a pre/pro? I'm not talking about add'l features, or the noise floor problem - Just your gut impression of what level of improvement in 2 channel and HT the 950 brings. Is it an improvement on the scale of adding a Parasound 2205 to the your Yamaha receiver? Do you finf that you miss any of the Yamaha soundfields?

Sorry for the question blitz - I'm interested in your first impressions of the 950 as a Yamaha RX-V300 replacement.

Thanks in advance.

Bill

This is a crosspost from the related thread on HTF:

Based on this thread, I went and did some spot checks with my Outlaw 950 connected to an Aragon 8008x3 amp. (Just checked the front channels.)

I couldn't hear a blessed thing with my ear right on the NHT 2.5 and the Outlaw 950 set to 0Db reference level, listening to a digital input with nothing attached to it.

I wouldn't take no noise for an answer, though. That wouldn't help any of the folks who are having problems. So, I decided to experiment with different power input configurations.

I found that if I plugged the Aragon amp directly into the wall (as opposed to the power filter. And I'm just using a Tripp Lite Isobar) I could hear a bit of low volume hiss/hum. Note that in my standard setup I have the Aragon plugged into one of the isolated outputs on the Isobar -- not the Db outlets (if you're familiar with the unit, this will mean something to you.) Plugged into a DB outlet, I hear some "compression" of the sound and less separation/air.

I haven't believed in power conditioners but maybe I have to change my tune based on this experiment. Damn. I don't wanna blow hundreds on another component.

Based on my system I'd be inclined to think the hiss and hum problem people are having may be something outside the 950 (or an issue with an individual unit.) If you can hear noise at 12 feet, there is something seriously at fault.

I do find that the 950 may be more susceptible to external hum/hiss than my old H/K Sig 2 pre/pro. But that may be due to a lower noise floor. I DID have to put more effort into chasing down external noise with the Outlaw than with my previous setup. The effort paid off with blessed silence, however.

Asx,

I tried hooking up my 300MHz Tek scope last night and was having a problem seeing any of the 950's noise, since it was being buried by other noise. I think my probes and RCA jack arrangement were picking up too much spurious crap. I'm not kidding when I said there's a powerful FM tower in town. Most of the time, I can hear it on my telephone over the dialtone!

I need to go to Radio Shack and pick up a BNC->RCA adapter so I can go straight out of the 950 into the scope, bypassing the probes.

Though, I do have some 50 ohm BNC cables and some of the opposite sex BNC->RCA adapters. That would work as well...

I will give it another shot when I get a chance. I was out of town all day today, so I didn't get to do much of anything.

Hmm.. I just checked my caller ID box. Looks like Peter Tribeman tried to call me four times today - I'm assuming it's about this issue. Not only that, but looking at the number, he lives in the town adjacent to me. Small world!

Don't have my 950 yet, but am anxious to see what kind of results I will get. I battle hum and hiss in my system. I have cheater plugs on my amp for ground loop hum (disconnecting the CATV didn't help at all). I also have experienced LOUD hiss from the center/surround preouts of my HK receiver and from the same channels on an Adcom Pro-Logic preamp.

I am really hoping the 950 will be quiet enough in my set-up. If not, I may be forced to try something like a balanced power transformer (best deal I have found is from b-p-t.com). Still not sure if the benefits of balanced power justify the cost, but it sounds like a great idea. Anyone here know about using balanced AC power for reducing noise in AV systems? Both Outlaw and BPT have 30-day money back guarantees. That doesn't leave a lot of time. Maybe I should order the power unit when my number for the 950 comes up?

After reading this thread, I went and listened to my existing system (on the wait list for 950...). I have a Denon 2800 and PSB Image 6T's.

Sure enough, I can hear a noticeable hiss with the receiver on but no sources on-- but only with my ear an inch or two from the speaker cover at the tweeter. So I suspect this is pretty common (see review on the Rotel RSX-1065 in Sound and Vision April 2002 issue). They use a test signal to measure the noise floor. BTW, I am considering the Rotel RSP-1066 as competition to the 950.

But if people are hearing it from 8 feet away (or even 1 foot), that is not OK. The hiss level on my Denon was not enough for my Radio Shack sound pressure meter to register even when pressed right up against the speaker and set to the bottom range.

Outlaw Admins, we would sure appreciate it if you would comment. I am keenly wondering what the answer is, as others probably are on the wait list...

Thanks.
-HTLearner

Test Results.
950
Acurus A200X5
B&K EX442
Snell D's
Sony DVP-560D

This system has zero power humm.

DVD,Coax,Stereo

Dead quiet on start up, no change with volume adjustment.

Play DVD, Pause: Definite Hiss with ear 1-2" from tweeter.
Volume setting has no effect, same hiss at same level.
Power off DVD player. Hiss continues. No change.
Power off 950. Hiss gone.

Not really a major issue but it does appear to be real. The 950 performs as well or better than any receiver or pre/pro that I have auditioned. Hopefully this hiss can be isolated or explained.

Tom

Tom,

I sure would like to know a few things about your setup, email me the answers if you don't want to display here.

1) 950 xovers and speaker low freq -3dB spec (Snells)
2) room size
3) music (digital or analog pass-thru)

My 950 does not have the noise issue as reported by Perfect. I cannot hear any hissing sound from my listening position and the only time I can hear the hiss is when I put my ears up to the speaker after I used the 950. However, if I start my 950 fresh with no source on, I get nothing but silence. And even after I turn on my sources, before I actually play anything, there is still no noise coming out of the speakers. Even if I turn the volume all the way up, there is still no noise.

I have the 950 hooked up to an Acurus 125x5 amp and going into the 950, I have my DVD player and VCR. The DVD player is connected using both a digital coax and Outlaw's PCA through the stereo out. I am also using a line conditioner, a Panamax 1000+. My cable use to cause ground loop feedback but the Panamax 1000+ has taken cared of that. I have not try to test for noise without the Panamax and I probably won't because I'll have to get a power strip.

As far as I can tell, the 950's noise floor is not only NOT the first real bad news but it is IMHO the first GREAT news about the 950. For both music and movies, the 950 is always chrystal clear and the noise floor is so low that sound just floats in the air.

Perfect, I hope you will be able to isolate the cause of the noise problem be it the 950 or not. As a suggestion, have you consider looking at the interconnect between the 950 and the amp? I have had an expereience in the past where I was using some unshielded Kimber PBJ cables from the pre/pro to amp that caused the speakers to hiss. Please share with us your findings when you've made more progress. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by mxy15 (edited May 06, 2002).]

Thirty year old power wiring and 25 year old CATV cabling has kept me battling ground loops in my system for years. Regardless of the processor/amp combination, I have always noticed the presence of hiss in my speakers, but only when I've had my ear against the speaker, troubleshooting the hum problem.

The hiss is more noticeable when I have the 60hz ground loop hum under control. But in no case have I ever been able to hear the hiss outside of an inch or two from the tweeter. This is true of both my 950 beta unit as well as my MC-12.

The ground loop hum has been the only problem since, uncontrolled, it can be heard anywhere in the room, with a silent house. I've never considered the hiss a problem since it is inaudible outside of an inch or so from the tweeter.

Those who have audible hiss at the listening position likely have a system problem or perhaps a defective unit. However, nothing in this thread or in my experience with the 950, leads me to believe that hiss is any more of an issue with the 950 than it is with any other digital pre-pro.

Regards - Gene

bstan,
1) 950 xovers and speaker low freq -3dB spec (Snells)40-22K,(small) 950 xover 60.
2) room size 20X20
3) music (digital or analog pass-thru)
digital.

Just tried analog input from CD player.
Hiss is present but now varies with volume control. Same with passthru.
Tom

Hey Guys,
I have ZERO hiss/hum. Every component I have either goes thru a Monster HTS5000 MK II Power center or a Mitsubishi Diamond series UPS. Power/Line conditioning may be why I have no problems. I don't really count the w/ my ear pressed against the tweeter as noise you can hear but I did do this and still hear absolutely nothing. I am using digital optical in. RP-51 panasonic for both DVD and CD playback at the moment.

------------------
Stott

I got the hiss in my main ,and do not change with volume.The hiss from my main is not a problem because I am about 12 feet from them.My real problems are the surround ,there are about 3 to 5 feet from me(depend of my position in the sofa),is really loud with every mode ,including input from the dbs receiver(sony hd100),pioneer dvd 47-a(dvd-v,sacd or dvd-a).My connection: optical dig from dbs,coax from dvd.Connection from pre to amp :transparent cables. Before the 950, I was using a Denon 2800 as apre tomy B&K 7270 without this noise.

Have any of you tried using a different power cord? Sometimes a high quality power cord will lower the noise floor and get rid of the hiss. I used an MIT Zcord II on my old rotel and the his was gone after I replaced the stock power cord.

Hiss is hiss.......which in an $900 piece of audio equipment is unacceptable.....PERIOD....maybe its summed hiss which is a lot easier to take than straight hiss... ...I know if I got one it would drive me nuts..........of course that is my problem.

Actually that is not quite true since it varies in intensity and in the individuals ability to hear it at a set distance. Every system has a noise floor. It is a function of all components in the system and is impacted by such parameters as preamp gain and amp input impedance, just to name two.


[This message has been edited by morphsci (edited May 08, 2002).]

morphsci.....i donn't know what mumbo jumbo you're talkin about, BUTTTTTTTTT in my 40 some years of putting together audio sytems, I never tolarted a piece of equipment that I could hear hiss. One of my first big Scott amps (it was almost as big as a 1/2 of a sheet of plywood) well It seemed that big at the time, I took home and returned three units before the fourth was hiss free in the circuits and meet my creteria of hiss free. If the parts are good, you donn't get hiss.PERIODDDDDDDD Just seems strange that this wasn't noticed once again by our "BETA Testers" hhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm????????????

I would also be concerned that the 950 isn't meeting its stated specs for signal-to-noise ratio, digital or analog...

Any feedback from Outlaw yet if this is real or not?

(I mean, it's definately real for the people experiencing it, but could it be that the unit is intrinsically quiet, just more susceptible to stray EM/RF interference maybe?)


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited May 09, 2002).]

OK, here's a weird story. With my older Rotel pro-logic pre-amp I was getting a very annoying hiss out of all speakers. I spent hours tracking it down before I thought to disconnect the CATV cable.

That cut out 90% of the hiss immediately. OK so waiting for my 950, I ordered the cable isolator from Polk audio. Well it turned out the 950 came first, and of course I had to plug it in anyway.

Here's the weird thing, even though I know the cable coax creates a buzz/hiss issue, after installing the 950 there was no hiss of any kind! Even sticking my ear to speaker grill - zippo. This totally surprised me since I'd read other posts that said the 950 was more susceptible than usual, and I was expecting the worst.

Now if Polk will just give me my money back..

No mumbo jumbo. In the 45 years that I have been putting together audio systems I have not heard any that did not hiss when you put your ear up to the tweeter (unless of course the tweeter did not have a high enough frequency range. This also includes every system I have listened to at high-end dealers and in the homes of friends. I have also noticed that hissing is very dependent on the quality of the AC. I am glad that you have a hiss free system, or at least think you do.

Exactly. My 950 has a slight his audible hiss about nine inches from the tweeter. Past that, silence. Big deal. I don't listen to full range speakers at high volume from nine inches away. It's still a low noise floor relative to most equipment, including much more expensive equipment.

HT Crazed: That's good news. The original beta 950 had some cable/coax buzz problems was that was quickly corrected. That was at least one problem which beta testing eliminated or at least lessened.

BTW, this past weekend, I listened to a Krell/B&W system and guess what... hiss at the tweeter but not from 2 inches away... just like my 950.

------------------
Take Care,
merc

I installed a Nakamichi CD/preamp in my car. Hooking it up to an A/D/S amp resulted in a lot of hiss. Rather than swapping out amps, like your 40 years of experience would tell you to do, I adjusted the input level of the A/D/S until the hiss was gone. A clear example of level mismatch. As far as the 950 goes, I have used it with 3 different amps (McIntosh MC40, Electrocompaniet AW 100, Adyton Cordis1). Non of these produced any hiss. It is therfore quite plausible that the beta testers had 950/amp combinations that didn't produce any hiss.



------------------
Helge Nylund

I installed a Nakamichi CD/preamp in my car. Hooking it up to an A/D/S amp resulted in a lot of hiss. Rather than swapping out amps, like your 40 years of experience would tell you to do, I adjusted the input level of the A/D/S until the hiss was gone. A clear example of level mismatch. As far as the 950 goes, I have used it with 3 different amps (McIntosh MC40, Electrocompaniet AW 100, Adyton Cordis1). Non of these produced any hiss. It is therfore quite plausible that the beta testers had 950/amp combinations that didn't produce any hiss.



------------------
Helge Nylund

I thought I might as well jump in on this topic too.
I was experiencing some hiss and a bit of 60Hz hum on my system. I live in a 40 year old house with the world's worst wiring. Last week I purchased a Monster Power HTS5000 Mk II. His and Hum are now completely gone. But that's not the best news. My bass response is much clearer and more well-defined. I've always used conditioners in my professional racks(Furman's, etc.) for protection more than anything else. This AUDIBLE improvement is an incredibly welcome surprise! I've heard about the systemic improvements that a good conditioner could make, but as an Audio Engineer of course I knew better. It's nice to be wrong on occasion.
Haven't gotten my turn with the Outlaw gear yet, still waiting.
Has anyone reviewed the Proton AS-2631? I just heard about it and wondered how it sounded.
Mix

That's great you got such good results! I think I will be going that extra step and trying a balanced power transformer. I am waiting until I get my 950 though to see how good or bad things are in my system.

Perfect, did you ever eliminate your hiss problem? Have you tried a new 950?

The hiss problem is still bothering me. I ran some more test and found that the hiss is audible from over 9ft. This is the same hiss Perfect posted about. It is not a 60Hz hum. I switched everything again back to my Yamaha RX-V3000 + Parasound amp and the hiss wasn't audible from more then 3 inches from the speaker. I think there may be a problem with my 950, however after listening to my friends 950, we could both here the same hiss on his system. Is it possible there is a handfull of defective 950's???

Dan

dealcatcher-

Please...

Try to talk to someone at Outlaw and see what they have to say about this.

I actually did try to track down an email ID for prefect to ask him about what was going on with his unit, but couldn't find one. (Not on his profile here, or the web site that his Outlaw forum id points to.)

I want to buy a 950 in Sept/Oct, but this issue in general has me bothered.

(Yeah, I know... Buy it and see for myself! )

Perfect, did you ever eliminate your hiss problem?

Greetings everyone.

I'm back after a month of self-imposed silence about the 950 noise floor issue. Outlaw has been working with me to solve this problem for the past four weeks, and I'm pleased to report that the unit that arrived yesterday has a noise floor that is improved such that I can no longer hear hiss from my seating position.

I first posted about the problem a month ago, and Outlaw contacted me almost immediately. The investigation into the problem started out with Outlaw asking me to perform numerous tests on the unit that I had at the time. They also queried me quite a bit about my equipment, room setup, etc.

They promptly sent me a second unit to try, on which I tried many of the same tests with similar results.

At this point, Outlaw chose to involve me with some of the technical information coming back from the engineers, as I am an engineer with audio experience myself. I was privy to some of the emails and documents that were going between their engineers, and they were indeed taking the problem quite seriously. There were several leads that the Outlaw engineers pursued and tested in their own labs without my direct involvement over the course of the past few weeks.

Yesterday, I received my third unit, which has a greatly improved noise floor due to the results of these changes. The reduction in noise is not enough that it _completely_ eliminates the hiss when I stick my ear close to the speaker, but it is more than enough to reduce it from my seating position. I wasn't particularly displeased with the previous units that I had tested and never intended to send them back, but this one's definitely a keeper.

During the course of this investigation, we reached the conclusion that I have a particularly revealing setup (amps, speakers and room) and very sensitive hearing. It would seem that the few other folks that are experiencing this noise floor issue from their seating positions are in the same boat.

From day one of the problem, Outlaw was very committed to solving my problem, and I have to give them a lot of credit for that.

I chose to remain quiet about this issue in the interim because I wanted to give Outlaw the courtesy of my professionality. I knew they were working on the problem. The last thing they needed was a litany of negative posts and speculation about the problem before they even fully understood it.

It was very clear to me that when they started working on the problem, they weren't quite sure what was causing it; they even said as much to me. They had a few leads, but it took a few weeks to isolate the key culprits and make the changes that are represented in the unit that I have at home now.

So, I would say - for those of you who are not experiencing any noise problems (the vast majority, it sounds like) - keep on enjoying your units. For those few folks who were experiencing problems, Outlaw will help you out on a case-by-case basis.

So, Will, I hope this addresses your concern that Outlaw had dropped my problem on the floor. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Now it's time to enjoy some movies!

Wow, that is interesting news, Prefect. Extremely interesting. Thanks for reporting back on it!

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

What changes did they make to the unit. To they have a QC problem on the parts that were corrected where a handful are not making proper tolerance. Does my unit that I have now which has a little hiss but not enough to piss me off have a chance to continuely get worse as parts age. Will my unit also, have problems if I decide to change out amps, speakers, etc. The bottom line if the Outlaws have found a solution to your unit why would it not apply to all units?

TPS

I am not at liberty to discuss the specifics of the changes. Outlaw is, after all, a company with competitors who would probably love such juicy bits of information.

Suffice it to say that what I know of the changes makes perfect sense from an engineering standpoint.

I'd suggest that if you have further questions about this issue that you give Outlaw a call.

Has far as the actual hardware the competition can easily buy a 950 and reverse engineer the product. For the consumer the concern is if production mods are being made to correct an issue than all of the consumers should be notified.

TPS

tps123,

It is quite clear from the variety of posts that we have seen about this issue over the months that this is not a widespread issue. Most people simply do not have this problem. It seems to be exacerbated in cases where a lot of variables stack up - efficient speakers, high input gain on an amplifier, untreated room, good ears.

If it is a widespread problem that negatively affected everyone, I have every confidence that Outlaw would do the right thing. However, evidence suggests that it is only a practical problem on a minority of systems. I just happened to be the first one to discover the problem.

As I said, you should give Outlaw a call if you are as concerned as you seem about this issue. They're really nice people and would probably welcome the opportunity to talk with you about your concerns. I am not in a position to comment on how Outlaw will handle this problem for the remainder of production units; I simply do not have the answers.

Looks like Outlaw has developed a better 950 that Prefect says has a greatly improved noise floor, compared to his original 950.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited June 07, 2002).]

Will, I think you should call or email Outlaw and see if they can get you one of the modified 950 since you are also experiencing hiss. Hopefully that will clear it up.

Prefect- THANK YOU!!

I can ask... Do you know if the changes they made to your latest unit will now be included in future manufacturing runs? (I'm guessing/hoping "yes" ...)

Just the news I have been waiting for, Prefect. Thank you very much. I am very much in the same boat as you, very effecient speakers, very good ears, and no expensive power conditioning equipment. I was kind of laying in the weeds waiting to hear some news of something that would help. Interestingly, I also get EXACTLY 54 dB on my Radio Shack meter at the speaker. I can not only hear that at my listening position 10 ft. away, but anywhere in the room. I don't really care what I can hear with my ear pressed to the speaker, as amazingly enough, I find I don't spend much time listening to my system that way. But if I can get it quiet at my seat, hallelujah! I will contact the Outlaws poste haste. Thanks again. Looks like there is relief in sight.

Prefect,
I also want to thank you and the Outlaws for so diligently pursuing this issue. As far as quality control, the Outlaws aggressive response to this situation shows a real concern for the quality of units that they put out. Pertaining to future units, it's only logical that the modifications done to lower the noise floor would be included on future production runs. Current production runs? I doubt it. Costs too much to retool unless it's just a hardware insertion. Of course, this is just conjecture on my part. It's nice to know that when I do receive my 950, I'm currently enjoying the 1050, it will have been a very well-engineered product with a conscientious company to back it up.
(Do you think all of this *ss-kissing will move me up on the list?)
'Till next time,
Mix

I am new to home theater, but wouldn't a Monster Power filter help? (like HTS 5000)

Chim:

In some cases, a power filter WOULD help, but I think the folks who are experiencing hiss problems with the 950 have something else going on.



[This message has been edited by bobliinds (edited June 18, 2002).]

I stopped in at the local high-end audio shop yesterday to see if they had anything new. They had a Rotel 1066 last week that I wanted to listen to, but they had already sold it. They did have a Reference 30 on hand, however. They had it running through a B&K 7270, with a Proceed DVD player as the source. Speakers were B&W Nautilus 803/HTM2/SCM1 - VERY nice system. Guess what? There was a very noticeable hiss to the system. I would suspect that if the room was closed off from the rest of the store, the hiss would be noticeable 10ft away at the listening position. That was of course with no program material playing. Once the movie was running, it was spectacular, and I didn't notice the hiss anymore. Just thought I'd share the experience. Glad to hear that Outlaw seems to have their hiss problem solved.

Jason

PREFECT, did the outlaws mention anything about when they were either going to replace or repair the HISSing sidewinders (my new pet name for the 950)?

Also, you said that they sent you a second unit that also had the HISS. Did they know when they sent it that it had the hiss or were they expecting the second unit the be the fix? If you got two HISSy units in a row, the malasian assembers must have received a bad batch of parts. Which brings me to a third question. The AT version of the sidewinder is advertised to be superior due to "Premium hand selected and calibrated components in the key processing paths. This includes the main pre-amp, DSP, and Video boards; All caps, DACs and Output ICs." and "Higher grade Op-Amps for improved Signal to Noise Ratio in Direct, Digital, and in the Analog-DSP inputs."

What up with that?


[This message has been edited by tetra500 (edited June 12, 2002).]

Howdy Prefect, et al. Spoke to Scott today (Finally. I am quite hard to reach at work, running all over the place...). I had sent Customer Service a very long and detailed email as to my symptoms, system setup, and history (what I had before). Scott seemed to appreciate this a lot, as he didn't have to quiz me much very much as to what was going on in my system. Bottom line is they will be sending me a new unit on Monday or Tuesday that Scott thinks will significantly improve my noise floor. I will keep you all posted as to results. By the way, I have now dealt with both Scott and Jamen, and I must say they are both absolutely superb at customer service. The kudos expressed elsewhere are totally deserved,IMHO. Customer service of this caliber is rare, not only on Internet sites, but at Brick and Mortar stores as well.

Too bad the service before the sale is so poor.

Yeah, I know, Jacket Fan. Seems kind of backwareds, doesn't it? Of course, I can't complain, as I am already on the "after-the-sale" side of the isle. I feel a little bad, though, for all the people who became disaffected because of Outlaw's poor before-the-sale service.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I was thinking I should wait until Outlaw officially says they found the problem, and had some new and improved 950 out, before contacting them, since otherwise, I thought I might end up with an intermediate solution.

But if after Skyfish gets his modified 950 he sees, as Scott predicts, a signicantly better noise floor than Skyfish's current 950 I'll be tempted to give the Outlaws a call and ask for a replacement. But I'm a little worried the replacement 950 might not be the final word on the current hiss problem. Outlaw may still be working on the hiss problem, as we speak, and I don't know if Outlaw has resolved the problem entirely, or not.

I am unsure about how long to wait before contacting Outlaw about the hiss. On one hand, I'd like to wait a little longer in order to give the Outlaws plenty of time to resolve the hiss problem entirely. But on the other hand, I've had my slightly hissy 950 (hiss barely audible from a few feet away) past the 30 day warranty period.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited June 15, 2002).]

Will, I totally understand. When I originally posted that I thought Outlaw had finally cleared up the problem but as we all know it has been very quiet from the Outlaw Camp lately. I am sure they will figure out the problem but I am done guessing when

Will -

Running past my expiration date was my concern. I at least wanted to register that I was experiencing the problem before then. Scott did tell me that my return period would be extended another 30 days on the new unit. If in fact they are still "experimenting" with the fix and I am used as a guinea pig in the process, I don't mind, IF in the end I have a 950 that is quiet enough that it doesn't intrude on my listening. I kind of assume I am a "worst case" scenario for them.

I have a 2 wishes:

1) That *someday* Outlaw will give us an official update concerning the "hiss" issue, that they have a fix, that all future production will include the fix, and that anyone who wishes to exchange their current unit for a "fixed" one can do so simply for shipping charges.

2) That *someday* Sound & Vision will get a "fixed" unit and update their measurements on it. Whether in the magazine itself, or via Outlaw (and this site), don't matter none to me. But, I finally got my S&V, and to be honest, I can't really find a pre/pro/receiver review out of the ones that I've kept over the years that had noise measurements as bad as the 950's.

Hey, I just emailed S&V that desire too, and so can you...

soundandvision@hfmus.com

I emailed Outlaw saying my 950 hisses and asked to get it replaced but said I'd be pleased to wait until after there's a final fix for the hiss. Scott responded with an email saying a replacement 950 was being sent out today. So I don't know if this is a final fix for the hiss, or an interim solution. I believe they'll pay for shipping the replacement 950 to my home, and they'll pay for shipping my original 950 to Outlaw.

My hiss was audible from a few feet away. My assumption (could be wrong) is many owners with a hissy 950 are going to be tempted to get one of the newer lower-hiss models, ASAP. The reason it's tempting to do this ASAP is who knows if Outlaw will exchange a 950 after you've had it awhile. In my case, my trial period expired, but just barely. I didn't ask about an extended trial period, but Scott wrote that my trial period was extended by about another month. So the period was extended to about 60 total days, in my case.

Scott used the words "as promised" with the extension, so maybe they extend the trial period as a matter of policy.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited June 18, 2002).]

Will, excellent news! Thanks for the update. I am sure I am not the only one interested in hearing your opinion of the "new" 950. As you would say, we wait in anticipated silenssssss

Hey, what about MOST of us with "old" 950's that do not have noise problems?? I guess you might call us the "Silent Majority"

Steves, you are right, we are the "silent majority" and a large majority I think we are. I meant mostly the people still waiting and of course the handful that do have this problem.

I suspect it is only a handful as you say. But some people who hear the slight hiss from more than a few inches away, probably won't ask for a return. My original 950 is acceptable even with its slight hiss. But in my case, I would prefer one with less hiss. But others who hear hiss might not want the hassle of disconnecting and boxing up the old 950, and getting and connecting the new 950, just to reduce a slight hiss. (shrug).

It's possible the slight hiss might contribute to the harshness some people are hearing on the 950, but I have no evidence about that, one way or the other.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited June 19, 2002).]

Will,

I'm very pleased to hear that the Outlaws are taking care of you. I am not surprised, but I know there are some who are/would be.

I'll be looking forward to hearing your thoughts after you receive your new one.

Thanks for letting us know!

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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

I've had the first 950 for a couple of months, and the second 950 for about one month. I've now listened to both of them long enough to have some opinions, and by now these opinions have withstood the test of time, at least somewhat. Also by now, even the second 950 has broken in. I communicated my opinions to Scott a few weeks ago, but haven't heard back from him. Incidentally, Ricky (aka rmbg on this forum) heard both 950s earlier this month, briefly, when he dropped by my home while trying to find if his 950 had a problem. Ricky, pleae feel free to chime in, if you'd like.

I do not know if my second 950 is an early fix for the hiss problem, or if it is (close to) the final fix for the hiss problem. So for that reason, I don't know if what I'm about to say here concerning my second 950 also applies to Outlaw's eventual final hiss fix or not. Also, the following is just *my* personal opinion.

When comparing the first and second 950's, there's a difference in the hiss level, as expected. But there's ALSO a difference in the overall sound, which I did not expect.

As for the hiss difference, the hiss is definitely reduced in the second unit. It is not eliminated. The amount of hiss heard from 20 inches away on the old 950, is now heard from about 12 inches away on the new 950, in my home theater system. It's a definite improvement. But the hiss is still there at least on my system, from more than 4 inches from my speakers. Now I need to add three caveats. One, my speakers are very efficient. Two, I cannot hear any hiss, from either 950, from my normal listening positions. This means I'm not sure that the hiss should matter at all. And three, because some people have discussed power supplies, I want to disclose that, while my home theater has a power conditioner, it's an inexpensive one, not a mega-expensive top-of-the-line conditioner.

Now I'd like to talk about the difference in the sound. Here's my observations in a nutshell:

The first 950 sounds more alive and vibrant. The second 950 sounds more laid back, mellow and perhaps, veiled. If you want a more forward sound, you'd like my first 950. If you want a somewhat warmer sound, you'd like my second 950. The difference in the overall sound is not exactly subtle. You can hear it pretty clearly. Ricky also noticed the difference in the sound.

I think, based on some of the posts I've read comparing the Outlaw 950 to the Rotel 1066, the new 950 probably sounds more like the Rotel 1066. But please take this with a grain of salt since I've never heard the Rotel first hand. The difference between the two 950s is pretty distinct, on my HT. Both sound nice. But in different ways. As I mentioned to Scott, it's almost like I wish the 950 had a switch so I could turn switch from "alive" to "mellow". If I were pressed to, I would say the new 950, with the mellow sound, is a more "typically" sounding rig. It sounds like most everything else out there, that I've heard. The old 950 by contrast, with the lively sound, has a magic to it. It has an open air vibrant and exciting sound, somehow.

So which do I prefer? For snazzy jazz, where you want to hear the zing, I prefer my first 950. For certain concertos, with classical harpsichords and such, where you maybe want to hear the sound in a more veiled light, I might prefer my second 950. I'm not 100% sure about this so don't take what I'm saying as gospel.
I've always liked the sound of the first 950, despite its hiss. In many ways I like the sound from the hissier first 950 more than the less hissy second 950. I can't hear the hiss from my listening position, at least not consciously. But maybe subconsciously I *like* some hiss in the background, and maybe subconsciously, I perceive the hiss as making the hissy 950 sound more "alive". Or maybe in order to reduce the hiss in the second 950 its sound quality may have been compromised. I'm sure this will all sort itself out eventually.

Other than this, both units seem to behave identically. Both the same good things, and the same bad things, both of which have been pretty well documented.

By the way, even though I've been referring to both of these 950's as my 950, actually they're not both mine since I only paid for one. I will have to return one.

If anybody has any question, feel free to post your questions here.

Will- I got to ask buddy!

When you compared the sound quality between the two units, did you match sound levels? I'm just wondering if the differences you heard might or might not be related to one unit being "louder" than the other...

Yes. If I played a CD on one 950 and then on the other 950, I made certain the volume levels were the same, as well as the trim settings for the various channels and the crossover frequencies, of course. The sound differences I hear are not, I believe, related to volume. I compared both 2 channel and multichannel (DTS NEO:6) sound. Did not compare the movie watching experience much since I listen to music more and also, I worry that the eye's senses when watching a movie may somehow affect the objectiveness of the ears.

Will, its likely the gains were changed, perhaps only slightly, trying to get rid of the elusive hiss. A simple 1-1.5dB difference in gain would make the difference virtually unnoticeable, except the results would be what you have described. What I'm being too long winded about is the fact that unless you have a sound level meter, just using the same settings may not work.
Mike

I can't be positive the gains are set identically. But I listened over a large volume range. The first 950 sounded more lively, throughout the large volume range. The second 950, by comparison, sounded more laid back and mellow, throughout the large volume range. The sound difference is pretty apparent, INDEPENDENT of whether one 950's volume was RELATIVELY higher than the other 950's volume, or lower.

That's why I think it's not a volume difference issue. Rather, the two units sound different.

The first 950 may sound harsher than the second 950, to some listeners. To me, the first 950 sounds more lively and forward than the second 950. But I imagine that people who think the (original un-updated) 950 sounds harsh, may like the way my second 950 sounds.

It's maybe like the way the original 950 is said to sound different from the Rotel 1066. The Rotel is said to be more veiled and the original 950 is said to be harsher.

Will



[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 25, 2002).]

I imagine Gonk has a 950 that's newer than the hiss-fixed version I tested, which sounded different than the original 950. It would be nice to know what sort of changes (hardware and software) were made to the "final" hiss-fixed 950. Was the Cirrus Logic firmware updated?

Will: How does the new 950 differ sonically from the original shipped 950? Is the difference noticable for analog and/or digital playback? Has anything regarding the "always on" BM changed? Noticed any other changes?

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Take Care,
merc