It just feels that way ,no emails ,no news letter?

I do have a feeling they're going under ,just do'nt understand the way they are running things anymore .
IT DOESNT LOOK GOOD, what do you think

If they aren't....


Then they have horrible Customer Relations.

They are getting real bad word of mouth right now. I have read on this and other sites about 20+ posts about people buying Rotel instead.

That isn't good.

If they aren't going under, they may find they will be if they can't fix their CR/PR problems.

No, I don't think so.

I haven't posted around here as much as usual lately; work and life in general has been busy. The last time I spoke to some of the Outlaws was several weeks ago, and I heard no indications of Outlaw going anywhere. Granted I've been wrong plenty of times before, but I don't think that we'll be replacing Outlaw with "out-of-business-law" any time soon.

What is the real problem here? A lot of people still anxiously waiting for their 950's to arrive, and a few questions about the work done to address the hiss issue (a big nod here to prefect for his work with the Outlaws on this one). Why has there not been any recent word about the status of those shipments? Beats me. The launch of the 950 has been a bumpy ride for Outlaw -- between the almost insane amount of 'net-generated hype (hype that created unrealistic expectations among many people: it's a pre/pro, not the holy grail), the development and production delays, the Dolby EX flag headache, and everything else that's happened it's been anything but smooth sailing. I've talked to Peter, Scott, and Mike in recent months, and they've been busting their butts to keep things moving. They choose to do it quietly because back when they were more open, the company got roasted in some online forums on a regular basis for it. I do wish they'd be a little more open, for the sake of everybody on the wait list. But I do not think their silence is because they are in any danger of going under.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gonk-

So let me see if I got this right. They (Outlaws) think it is better to keep their potential customers in the dark and not live up to promises?

So their word means nothing to them?

How does that help them?

I'm sorry but if you are on a waiting list, and there are delays, once you know about the delay, you let the people waiting know.

I have counted about 20 posts by people who got off the list due to their lack of communications. That isn't much, but what about the people who didnt post about it?

That is lost business. Then take the people who read those posts who are considering business with Outlaws. I am willing to bet that Outlaws has lost at least 5% of possible sales from this. At a minimum that should be true.

How hard is it to say 'We found a slight hissing problem and we are having it fixed before shipping out new models?'

Because people DONT know that is what is going on.

Then lets talk about their communication in other threads. The 'zone 2,' is weak, someone points it out and asks questions. Scott comes on and says 'Hey I'm looking into it.' Then nothing. No reply from him on the matter.

Thats more bad CR.

A lot of people read the sites trying to make purchasing decisions. The HTF can erase the posts with bad word of mouth for Outlaw, but that isnt enough. The word IS getting around.

All Outlaw has is their word. Because people cant buy the product at the local HT store. So all these posts of people being pissed is only hurting Outlaw.

Like I said, in my sleep I could do a better job.

[This message has been edited by lotus_j (edited June 20, 2002).]

I don't think the recent lack of communication should be in any way, shape, or form, construed as a clue that they are going under.

But.

They certainly could do better.

You know I got a feeling someone was going to write this type of post.... Its really amusing how situations manifest themselves.

Gonk, I don't think so either...

Remember this. Good or Bad publicity is still PUBLICITY. Home theater forum is dominated by "Outlaw" posts, alot of other home theater forums are dominated with the name "outlaw". Would be tough to pay for all this publicity.

Sure Outlaw could be more upfront with delivery.

Sure they could keep you updated more.

Fact is, they keep everyone WAY more updated than almost any other home theater manufacturer. Period. Too much so, I think. Sometimes it works in their favor sometimes they take a beating. It's all part of the game.

Bold Prediction: Outlaw will NOT go under, outlaw will fix problems with the 950, and Outlaw WILL profit from the sale of the 950. Their pre pro is one of 2 on the market right now under $2000. The market demand is large enough, even if there was 4-6 at a price point of 2000 or less. The outlaw is still UNDER 1000.

These forums only sample a small number of people who actually buy the products and talk about them. Not everybody posts, and not everybody reads. I wouldn't bet the farm on information on the demise of outlaw based on what was said in a forum.

Nuff said....

Big Jeff

A lot of people read the sites trying to make purchasing decisions. The HTF can erase the posts with bad word of mouth for Outlaw, but that isnt enough. The word IS getting around

In a big way ,outlaw needs to stop the bad word of mouth.....ASAP!!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by CORVETTE (edited June 21, 2002).]

I understand what you're saying, Gonk, about the Outlaws having been roasted in the past for posting too much info, especially what turned out to be bad info over and over again. And that might tend to make them a bit reactionary. I was there to witness a lot of the roasting. I don't, however, think that any of it was worse than what they're getting now. This DEAD SILENCE has really hurt them. Even more, I might say, than the continual three-week predictions.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

My God. All this speculation is enough to make one ill. My suggestion! Begin drinking heavily, or at least try to get out more. I expect the next post to speculate on the Outlaws abduction by aliens. Heaven help us!

=============================================
Bold Prediction: Outlaw will NOT go under, outlaw will fix problems with the 950, and Outlaw WILL profit from the sale of the 950. Their pre pro is one of 2 on the market right now under $2000. The market demand is large enough, even if there was 4-6 at a price point of 2000 or less. The outlaw is still UNDER 1000.
==========================================

It is ture for now since we only 950 and 1066 under $2,000. It may NOT be true for 6 months later because technologies change so dramatically. For example, DPL II only existed on high end pre/pro or receiver one year ago, but it is every where even on a $300 receiver now. We are racing with clock. If Outlaw cannot keep up in time, the competitators will jump into the HT market quickly. It is just MO.

James

Count me in as a casual reader/sometimes poster that has been watching these forums, and my excitement for this product went from "Sure, I will wait for a product like this", to "Wow, there are many other good options out there!" At this point, I doubt that I will buy the 950. The Outlaw silence does bother me quite a bit. The double bass and hiss issues aren't that big of a deal to me, but the build quality is definitely an issue. Vanity is not the whole issue, either. My whole perception of Outlaw in the last six months or so went from seeing them as a hard working, producer of quality goods that they sell directly over the internet, to a group that makes as many shortcuts as possible to intruduce a product that has the right specs and price. There is nothing really wrong with them, as I see it, but the perception I know have is not good. I may buy an amp from them someday, but I don't know now.

Anyway, all this rumbling gets me to the final conclusion: I was going to buy a 950/770 combo, and now I will very likely buy something else (Rotel, anyone?). Paying a bit extra for something I perceive as better quality and value is worth it to me.

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Benjamin King
benjaminking@yahoo.com

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and take it easy. Just read this !


At this time, it has become obvious that an update is necessary on the status of the 950. While earlier delivery estimates have fallen short, this has never been our intention. However, as you know, shipping of the Model 950 has come to a stop. As you may also know, a small number of units have shipped with an abnormal level of hiss.

The cause of this hiss has become the topic of heavy debate in the Outlaw Saloon as well as in other online forums. It has also become a significant burden to our engineers here in the United States as well as our engineering team in Malaysia. Literally working around the clock we have been able to isolate a few potential causes. Further complicating things is the fact that this problem is confined to a small sample of units making it harder, not easier, to solve. There are many individual factors pertaining to each installation which means a "fix" that works in the lab might not work in the field. The hardware and software engineering required to get to the bottom of things is a very time consuming process. If everyone had the same problem, it would be easy.

The "good news" is, while the reports of problems sometimes seem magnified by postings on the forums, their actual number in proportion to the number of units shipped is very small. The "bad news" is that the small number of samples and the variations in the way in which the problems manifest themselves make the solution harder to reach.

We are continuing to investigate the root cause for this anomaly, and will continue our commitment to resolving this issue for each and every consumer. Since several customers have contacted us regarding a lack of communication regarding both the status of the 950 and our intentions, here is our interim proposal:

· If your 950 exhibits an abnormal level of hiss, please send an e-mail with the serial number of your unit and your name, phone number and address to 950service@outlawaudio.com. We will then send confirmation of your letter. Once a universal fix has been established we will process your request and tell you how to send the unit back to our warehouse and service center. We will arrange for a pick-up by FedEx Ground at our expense, and we will ship a modified unit back to you prepaid.
· The timing for all of this will be worked out with you via e-mail.

Given that anyone who was unhappy with their initial unit has already had the option to return it within the 30-day audition period, we feel that this is a reasonable way to accommodate those who appreciate the sonics and features of the Model 950.

In addition, we will begin to provide more timely updates regarding the status of the product. What we can not do is provide estimates as to when individual units will ship. Calling/e-mailing the Sales and Support office regarding this status will only further hinder our ability to work efficiently at resolving the issue. However, we will continue to encourage any and all contact regarding the operation, use, and/or integration of our equipment.

One last comment. While we have been extremely liberal regarding the use of our Saloon, we have NEVER stopped reading it or any other industry news boards. Due to the roller coaster like nature of the hiss problem we felt it would have done more harm than good to comment in many of the ongoing threads. Giving out information that ultimately proves to be inaccurate only makes the situation worse for everyone. These new, timelier updates will inform you of our continuing progress in dealing with this situation.

We thank you for your patience and understanding.

Best Regards,

The Outlaws


This was posted yesterday on the tread just below this one!! And Scott answered my email yesterday by calling my house and leaving me his office # because of his concern of what's been going on! I think that they are doing the best they can, but just remember, their only human too!!!

hey benjaminking, i would just like to say that the build quality of the 950 is just fine, there is nothing wrong with it, what do you expect? six inch steel plating everywhere? i have see a lot worse for the money. and by the way outlaw will not "go under". also i am not trying to be rude, i am just stating what i thing.

From what I've gathered, Outlaw's other products are selling well, and the company is extremely lean and well capitalized. They're a young company with a new business model, and the 950 has hit more than a few bumps getting out the door. However, if there's one thing we've learned, it's that there's plenty of demand for the 950 - even if some customers have been frustrated and the competition gets some of the business.
Should Outlaw fix whatever problems the unit has and get it out in volume - and all indications are that they're working on it - it looks like the 950 will be quite successful.

Going forward, I expect less in the way of predicted shipping dates and longer/more involved beta test cycles for all their electronics-based products.

While it isn't pleasant to wait for a product you sorely want, it's hardly a reason to assume a company is going out of business!

-avi

taking a 60 second break from "real life" before I have to dive into my next problem here in the office. However, chalk me up as another believer in the "Not going out of Business" and as an 'agreer' in the "need to communicate more" columns. Now as to the form of that communication ... they've got this nice web site & this forum. I undrestand, and fully support, their reasons for not being active on other forums, but I'm having difficulty understanding why they don't use this venue more fully.

But regardless, I don't believe Outlaw Audio is going away any time soon. And I still expect to see them releasing new products as they go forward. Just my opinion ... humble or otherwise.

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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

They have to. The 1050 is already dated. The ICBM will become dated eventually, as more DVD-A/SACD players do DVD-A/SACD bass management, internally.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited August 23, 2002).]

I'd like to see them do an ICBM II with adjustable volume pots on each output. (That would fix the individual channel volume problem when using it *after* a pre/pro or receiver-as-a-pre/pro.) There's other stuff they could do too, without much engineering effort or re-design...

I'd love an ICBM II which incorporates a transparent dual input 5.1 channel switcher. That way, we could use a single ICBM for both DVD-A and SACD.

I wonder if most of Outlaw's monthly revenue these days comes from the sale of their amplifiers.

Will: I would guess so. It's also their "traditional" product.

Hmm, ICBM-II also has to have an input trigger, of course, to switch inputs... Master volume would be nice, too... And maybe a "bypass" switch to make it straight-trough temporarily without futzing with the knobs and losing your settings...

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net