Sorry to be negative about what I'm sure will be a great product for many on this forum. However, for those who want to use this unit to operate a second room and actually control the source/volume from the second room, then this is not the pre/pro for you. I've posted on this subject here and at the HT Forum.

First, the substantive issues of Zone 2:

I sent Outlaw an e-mail via their web submission form with the following questions:



Outlaw dutifully responded within 4-5 days as follows:



I appreciated the response, but particularly with regard to discrete IR codes and navigating punch down menus, the reply was non-responsive and not informative. So I replied back on April 29th as follows:



Well, 9 days later, I've gotten no response from Scott or anyone else at Outlaw. I believe I raised some pretty legitimate questions. Even if they are researching the issue, a quick reply stating that fact would be nice. I know others have accused Outlaw of playing favorites with their customers (coddling some, ignoring others). I have to say that certainly seems to be the case in this instance.

Meanwhile, with the passage of time, I've decided to go another direction. I'm putting my 2095 in on a custom install job I'm doing that will only be 5.1 (due to wife approval factor). So, I'll be selling it, and just moving to a new 7.1 receiver. Which, by the way, everyone I've looked at so far (in the $1,100 to $2,000 range) has video zone 2 out, selectable record out, and dedicated codes (and in most cases separate remotes) for zone 2 proving that these features are not expensive to implement.

As Outlaw is a relatively new company, hopefully they'll learn just a little bit from this: one, design a better zone 2 system; and two, ignoring your potential customers causes them to seek other alternatives and not buy your product.

Sorry this is so long, but confession (and venting) is good for the soul.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliffk (edited May 09, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Cliffk (edited May 09, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Cliffk (edited May 09, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Cliffk (edited May 09, 2002).]

Hello Cliff,

Unfortunately, I never received your last email. I apologize if I somehow allowed it to slip through the cracks (if this proves to be the case). However, please allow me to reread the last section of your post and answer accordingly.

Scott,

Thanks for the quick reply here. I understand that no communication method is foolproof. I look forward to your response, but am not optimistic about there being a solution (given your previous response and the 950 manual).

Take care,
Cliff

I will post a complete response tomorrow once I've had time to investigate this feature more extensively. Just a quick note, please understand that I take all inquiries VERY seriously. Sometimes it gets pretty busy (especially lately)and a question might get missed. If this is what occured in your case I apologize.

Also, the web site and system look great, nice work!

CliffK,
While I don't use the 2nd Zone functions of my 950 at all I can see where the limitations of this unit in that regard would probably emilinate it from consideration for a multi-room installation, especially when you factor video into the mix.

However, I do find the limitation of video recording tied to the main source a bit of an inconvenience that I just became aware of last night. I had this feature on my Denon 5700 and just assumed it would work that way as well on the 950. Ever since I added a PVR (Dish 501) to my arsenal I hardly ever use tape any more but there are some occasions where I dump some recordings from the PVR to tape to archive a program or two.

I tried to do this last night for the first time and I found out that it would only work when the recording source material was limited to the active input. On my 5700 you could select any video source for recording while any other source was playing. In my case there is a simple work around (a direct connection from the PVR to the VCR) but I can see where this would become a major issue if your needs were more complex.

Is the 950 a great sounding an performing unit? Yes. Will it provide every single function of some of the mega receivers out there? No. You have to see if it meets your needs and act accordingly. Nothing wrong with that.

And I hope that Outlaw is taking notes. The features you mention should definitely be incorporated into the next Outlaw Pre-pro.

[This message has been edited by Robert A Fowkes (edited May 10, 2002).]

While I am not concerned about the video switching features, the usability of the zone B remote is important to me. What's the point of having the zone B feature if you have to navigate menus blind to control it?

What I hoping to hear is that the codes for setting volume, selecting sources, etc. that are received through the zone B IR jack are remapped, in software, to the zone B equivalents. That would mean no menus when working through the IR jack, but the ability to use the same remote, or learn directly from the same remote, instead of discrete codes.

If this isn't the case, what are the chances for a fix?

I was going to add this to the beta thread, but the subject matter there seems to be a bit different: Did any of the beta testers hook up and use zone B?

--Mike


[This message has been edited by Llamas (edited May 10, 2002).]

Llamas,

You may be correct about the zone 2 implementation of source/volume control received through the IR repeater jack.

I was looking at the Pioneer VSX-47TX manual last night and that's what it appears to do.

However, the problem with this for me and for other custom install uses is that all of my equipment is controlled by whole house IR. That is, in the HT, my equipment is in a closet behind the room, and even in the main listening room, I use IR repeating with infared blinker emitters. Obviously, I use the same emitters for the signals received downstairs (Zone 2). My Zone 2 is actually 4 pairs of speakers throught the lower level of my home (with independent volume control, but only one source for all four pairs of speakers). I have a total of 5 IR windows for receiving IR throughout the house.
So, I couldn't use the rear IR jack for Zone 2 control because my IR system for the HT and Zone 2 are integrated. With discrete codes, this isn't a problem.

If there are internal codes for which the Hex code info. can be determined, then I could put that into my Pronto. Otherwise, I'm out of luck.

-Cliff

I used and tested Zone 2 during the orginal beta. It works well for what I need.

In my system, Zone 2 is six pairs of speakers in the dining room, kitchen, library, garage, basement, and deck. With a multiroom setup like this, each room MUST have its own volume control. If you turn on the system to listen in one room, you don't want it to play everywhere - especially not on the outdoor speakers. I set the 950's Zone 2 volume to the maximum that I want the weakest speakers in the system to play at, and then I use the local volume control to adjust it down from there.

If anything, I'm more interested in controlling my CD player remotely than changing sources on the 950. I have a LeapFrog IR-RF remote control extender that lets me work the CD player functions from anywhere in the house, but I really don't use it much. I generally set Zone 2 to play the radio or shuffle through a few CDs, and then just let it go for a few hours without adjusting anything.

My favorite thing about the 950's multizone capability is that it has a separate trigger.

After reading the details of Cliff's and Jeff's respective configurations, neither of which match what I want to do, I can appreciate the thought that needs to go into designing the specifications for the remote zone feature.

I'm hoping that Scott will answer soon. If I cannot set things up so that my second zone (just one room) can be controlled easily via remote, my purchase plan will likely change. My HT is a 5.1 setup, so the other two channels of the 770 were to drive the zone 2 speakers in the room on the other side of the wall. And if I change my focus to upgrading just a 5.1 system, ugh... my whole set of choices, whether receiver or pre/pro, and amp, changes.

--Mike


[This message has been edited by Llamas (edited May 12, 2002).]

We are still doing some testing. Sorry for the delay, more to follow.

Scott

Scott,

Thanks for working on this issue, and thanks for letting us know that you are working on it.

-Cliff

I don't mean to be rude, since you are obviously going through some effort to find answers to our questions, but don't you have the specifications for all this stuff? Not the set you put on the box, but the set your engineers (whether in house or outsourced) worked from?

It doesn't bode well that you have to set up tests to answer the question. You guys designed this thing, but don't know how it works?

This goes for the discreet remote codes, as well.

Again, sorry to sound harsh. I don't want to hurt any feelings, but I also don't want to spend a good chunk of money on something with a feature set that the manufacturer doesn't have a handle on.

--Mike

OK, less cranky, more helpful...

Perhaps someone that actually has a 950 can try something for us: Enable multi-zone, then exit the menus. Hit the multi button on the remote, then select an input from the remote, not the via the menu. Does this work? How about volume?

The manual doesn't say that this will work, but it does say that the multi button will take you directly to the multi-zone menu. I was reading through another manufacturer's (a receiver that wouldn't sound as good as a 950...) manual to see how they did it, and for them it was multi followed by the volume or input. Of course, you could also configure it so that signals received through the remote IR port were assumed to be multi, so you don't have to hit multi first, but I can't find any mention of anything like that in the 950 manual.

Thanks,

--Mike

Mike,

Good thought! At least it's worth a try.

Anyone?

-Cliff

Yes it works. Each time you hit the multi-zone button on the remote you cycle through the 4 menu options - ON/OFF, INPUT, VOLUME, MUTE. This is a really cool feature however my only complaint is that the output from whatever input you choose comes out totally flat regardless of how you have that input set so you can't adjust treble, bass etc. to those speakers. I suppose you could add a equalizer somewhere in the mix.

Someone mentioned on another thread that the multi zone is essentially a separate two-channel analog preamp within the 950, as such the signal is never digitized and sent through the DSP. So, it's like it was always set to "bypass" mode. You have source selection and volume control, and nothing else.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Ed, I'm not sure what you mean by "it works." multi->input and multi->volume, or just paging through the menu with multi then selecting with the arrows?

The first you can do easily when not looking at the display (when in the other zone). While the multi->multi cycle could be worse, you are still somewhat in the blind when making changes, especially if you still need to use arrows to change sources.

None of this is stuff that you can't work around, but I'd rather have the work done for me by the electronics. I mean, my wife or I might have to walk 25 feet (and back!) to the main zone to go change the settings! I'm 33 years old. My knees can't take that kind of abuse.

Back to one of the original points: Why offer a multi-zone remote capability that requires a layered menu system? It just seems like this is something that could be, or could have been, adjusted in software so that anything coming in through the multi-zone IR port be mapped to the multi-zone settings. Oh, well, it's easy to point fingers after the fact. Perhaps a broader beta would have exposed a couple of these usability issues that don't affect everyone.

I may have to take this question to a different thread, but I may also want to determine whether a second zone driven by analog pass-through from a consumer-grade CD player, even going through a 200WPC amp, is the way to go. I might just go with a 5 channel amp for HT and use my old Yamaha HTR5150 in the other room for music. If so, the question of multi-zone usability is moot (for me). The decision isn't critical until I get the email.

--Mike


[This message has been edited by Llamas (edited May 15, 2002).]

Still wondering about the zone 2 operation. Have the tests been completed yet?

-Cliff

How about removing Zone 2 all together and lowering the price a little more. Then the people that really need it can pay an additional $1000.00 and buy something that supports everything that they need a pre/pro to do.

It probably cost them almost nothing to put in. I can't think of any other reason that was included, especially since there are very few buttons devoted to it and the half-baked way it was thrown in. Besides the fact that it doesn't add anything to the sound quality of the main zone, which seemed to be their benchmark for including features in this model.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Well, maybe I'm a naysayer in the group, but I have found the Zone 2 capability to be sufficient for my needs.

When we remodeled the house 9 years ago, I installed in-wall or in-ceiling speakers in 4 rooms; kitchen, dining room, living room and front 'study'. Since then, I also installed two sets of Bose 151 outdoor speakers (yes...I know....BOSE!?) on the deck and patio.

Each room, even outdoors, had it's own Niles volume control, and all cables terminated at an Adcom 6-speaker connector, which was in turn connected to the "B" button on my NAD 2400THX amp. So...if we wanted the sound that was playing from the two channel preamp (that the Outlaw replaced), you mashed the "B" button and listened in the rest of the house.

With the 950, I connected the Zone 2 outs to two channels (30W each) in my second NAD 906 amp, and that output to the Adcom speaker selector. Bammo...instant Zone 2, with "master" volume at the 950, but individual volume in each room and outdoors.

It was nice the other day; kids watching TV in the family room; me listening to CDs outside.

The operation is a bit funky, but I found that you 'remember' that the first punch of "multi" on the remote allows you to turn on/off the zone, and the second punch of "multi" allows you to step through sources. Just press 'next' (or whatever it's labeled on the remote) until you get out of Zone 2 what you want.

I agree; it would have been nice to engineer a bit more intuitive Zone 2 remote control, but for my purposes, it is adequate.

Hello Outlaws,

Thanks to another post I realized I neglected to get back and confirm the results of my testing. I apologize.

As Ed has stated, operating the multi-zone feature involves pressing the "multi" button 1,2,3, or 4 times depending on which part of the menu you wish to operate. The left and right arrows will then allow you to adjust the settings be it source, volume, etc.

It was also mentioned in this thread that you thought there were no bass and treble controls in the second zone. This is in fact correct.

Once again, I do apologize for the delayed response.

Scott

Well, that does it for me. I'd pretty much decided the Outlaw 950 wasn't for me anyway - too many problems with the units and too long to bring the product to market. Throw in the complete lack of forethought on the zone 2 control features, and that's definitely the icing on the cake for me.

Again, re-read my original post. Why even have a zone 2 feature if you've got to do tricks to control it from the second room? And as Matthew pointed out, it would cost next to nothing to have incorporated 12 - 15 more discrete codes for zone 2 operation. Plenty of other companies have found a way to do it on receivers that cost the same or are less than this unit.

Since it's obvious that Outlaw put very little thought into this feature, I wonder what other features of the unit they put very little thought into. Composite to S-vid conversion? Bass management? Noise floor? Kind of makes me wonder. An isolated incident or single problem is one thing, but the 950 seems to have more bugs than Win 98 first edition.

-Cliff

I think that the zone 2 works GREAT for my application. Why would I want to control the treble and base for zone 2?

Zone 2 goes to another power source, in my case I have an 0ld reciever that powers the downstairs and another receiver that controls the rooms upstairs.

I really only use the 2nd zone for CD music so on the Outlaw it is always set to that.

I really like the fact that the Outlaw does not need to be on to run zone two. On my Yamaha receiver, the Yamaha had to be on and the receiver upstairs had to on for zone 2 to work. So, good job Outlaw.

Jeff

Cliff, I normally don't get into the negative threads, but you seem to be an intelligent, educated guy who got off on a tangent. It would seem a lot of people have an overly demanding set of ideals for this preamp. It was designed to be a HT processor, and does that well. I love mine; the 2nd zone thing won't be a blip on most folk's radar. Maybe for a few $ more and more delays, that could have been more thoroughly designed, along with some other features, but then we might have an Anthem or the like for >$2K. I'm not sure what you expect for this price. This isn't really intended as a flame, just trying to put things in perspective.
Mike

If anyone have the problem that I have? When I use the zone2 with a different input (cd) than zone 1 ,and If I lower the volume in zone 1 ,I can listen the zone 2 audio in zone 1

Mike,

I didn't take your post as a flame, and please don't take this one as a flame, either. However, I feel compelled to respond.



I don't think thoroughly researching, probing, discussing, and ultimately pointing out the shortcomings of the zone 2 feature of the Outlaw 950 is a tangent. That said, I do realize that I place a higher than average importance on this feature set due to my own whole house audio set-up and those that I install for other people.



I definetly understand the importance of perspective. But as some of my earlier posts in this thread discuss, I'm not comparing the 950's feature set with the 2k+ pre/pros out there, but rather with $900 - $1,500 receivers (including my own 3 year old one). There is a bevy of receivers out there in this price range now that do a much better job with zone 2 than the Outlaw 950. How did these companies manage to do it? And these comapies' products are actually availabe now. Didn't cause them any delays. Didn't make their price go up. We're not talking about a new technology, nor a complicated one.

In today's home theater and audio environment, the importance of mult-zone/room functionality is growing more important, not less. I've heard it said that in 10 years, trying to sell a home without structured wiring will be like trying to sell a home without plumbing. While I think this is an exageration (especially for those of us here in Miss.), it does highlight the increasing importance of distributed a/v. The pre/pro or receiver is, of course, the centerpiece of any a/v system.

So to have what I think everyone would agree is a lower end product (Yamaha RX-V2095) than the 950 include a better feature set on zone 2 three years ago is really inexusable IMO.

Take care,
Cliff

Ok, I see where you are coming from. Why does the (insert Japanese receiver here) have more features than the 950? IMHO, and speaking from experience, since I have had several Japanese recs. over the years, they can't hold a candle to the 950 for sound. OUtlaw has chosen to put in the latest and greatest DACs and digital processors in this unit, rather than cheap "features". You may as well ask why the Tojo unit doesn't sound as good as the 950? I kept the last one in my system for a week, wanting to like it as it would have simplified my system. It went back. Just different priorities. By the way, zero on the hiss/noise. And my speakers use Raven tweeters, not known for hiding anything. Just FYI.
Cheers,
Mike

I read on one of these forums that one of these Tojo units will even tell you that your pizza is ready in the oven. Now THAT'S what I call a FEATURE!

Sorry to jump in with my two cents here, but it appears to me to be something like an
argument about which is better, A pick up truck or a sports car. The obvious answer is
that "It depends"

If one intends (and presumably needs) the functionality which allows for multi room use and recording, etc. then a device with a different feature set is indicated. If one is setting up a dedicated home theater with the objective of the best he can afford in state of the art sound reproduction, then that becomes the guiding feature set which dictates the purchase.

I agree that the multi feature in the 950 is a bit lame. But, since it is not a relevant feature in my case, I have a serious case of the "so whats". Apparently If one wants both the sound and an adequate MULTI functionality, another $$thousand or so will be required. Best of luck in your search for the sportscar/pickup of your dreams!

Eddyboy

I think eddyboy hit the nail on the head here. I'm glad the thread is here, as it offers some first-hand user experience with the zone 2 operation on the 950. For some people, the zone 2 user interface (which is pretty klunky) gets the job done fine. But if somebody really is looking for a good bit of flexibility in the zone 2 operation, the 950 may be disappointing. Put another way, just because the zone 2 features are all I need (I will probably add a headphone amp on zone 2 one of these day) doesn't mean that the features are enough for cliffk's needs. Different users have different requirements.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Well like Cliff control and multi-zone is as much an issue as quality of music and processing. My gear is rack mounted in it's own room so everything is controlled through the wall with a Pronto. I ended up with a Denon 5803. It has full control of 3 zones if needed and discretes for everything you could think of and more. I am not comparing it at all to the 950 as they are 2 totally different products. I was considering the 950 very hard but with what I see as a lot of little annoying control problems that would drive me nuts I did what was best for me dollars not being an issue. For some where dollars are an issue this is their only choice and I see some people, not all basing their decisions on that alone. It jumps right out in some posts. For some this is all they can afford and I respect them but the cheap ones I don't respect at all. I even see people trying to get free shipping,cables etc etc. You folks should look in the mirror and see what the rest of us see. If you really feel the 950 is for you,worth the wait and within your budget then that is the reason to buy it. Please stop demanding these people give you their blood. I don't think they have much wiggle room in their price point to earn a reasonable profit and still give more away.

underparr,

While your opinion is certainly welcome, I respectfully disagree.

My job, as a consumer, is to buy the product that best fits my needs at the best price possible. Outlaw's job is to maximize its profits. Somewhere in the middle lies the equilibrium.

Outlaw will not make a deal that is unprofitable. Only they know what their margins are. Only they know how much they can wiggle. Outlaw's success is predicated almost exclusively upon word of mouth. Only they can determine the value of the word of mouth generated by treating their customers well. Do you feel that you have been treated well of late?

I have been waiting since January. Outlaw set our expectations for delivery and then failed to deliver on time. I understand the reasons why and I sympathize. I have no problem with missing a drop date. I do, however, have a problems with Outlaw's failure to maintain communication with its loyal customers.

As you obviously have been following these threads, you must have noticed that Outlaw's actions of late have not engendered much goodwill among its intended customer base. Outlaw's silence has created a good deal of distrust. From the postings I have read, I must conclude that a good number of people have lost faith and purchased from alternate vendors. I have considered it myself.

Despite the problems, some of us have remained loyal to Outlaw. If we have rattled their cages, it is because we do not want to see Outlaw fail. We have been trying to remind them to focus on the customer, as this is the only way they will succeed. For a short while, they seemed to forget that.

As to the question of compensation, I feel that I have waited an unusually long time this product. Outlaw has, in the past, expressed its appreciation for the loyalty of its customers by offering them compensation for their investment of time, energy, and ultimately, money.

With all due respect, I don't think it is your place to dictate what other should request or expect. I have made no demands of Outlaw. I have suggested that they offer some consideration for the loyalty and patience many of us have manifested.

Ultimately, a potential customer will have to decide whether Outlaw is the right choice. Only Outlaw Audio can decide how it wants to treat its customers.

Your opinions are welcome. Your baseless judgement is not.

Sincerely,
Santa Clara Jim

As to the original point of a difficult user interface with Zone 2, I programmed my Pronto to handle an earlier attempt at a multi-zone system (with old receivers etc, not the 950) and while it wasn't a very sexy approach, I never had a problem. Since 2 of the people commenting about the problems with Zone 2 have Prontos, it might be worth a look into making that the solution. I basically had pages set up so that when I hit an action, it would take me to a different page with different macros to control the other actions.

Example: Switch multi to CD might be a 3 function macro. Then have it take you to the "I am currently on Multi CD" page with all of the necessary macros to go to another setting from the current position in the menu, i.e. CD. Make them all look the same and nobody would know the better.

I may not be understanding the problem and I agree that discrete codes are never a bad thing. But if somebody who has access puts some thought into it, maybe they can find the specific solution for their own needs.

S.

Well, why continue to borrow from peter to pay paul, It seems to me that the 2nd Zone of components are really for the Novice user, However when you are refering to a End user that is really into Multi-source/Multi-Zone situations it is time to step up and dedicate components for your Theater and Multi Zone/source systems, however they can share the same sources, and having individual base, treble, balance and loudness per Zone is do-able and ease of opperation is always a nice touch. Take care all..Peace!!

"Do you feel that you have been treated well of late? "


JIM,

I agree with most of what you said. I called them a while ago and willing to wait myself as I thought this was going to be a great product. After numerous phone calls about the operation of the product which couldn't be answered on the spot and then when they did get back to me they gave answers to other questions not the ones I asked about. This went on and on. I then started to see the complaints and lack of response here. I took my money and went else where like a lot have already done. Personally I think it's nuts to wait giving the current nature of things. As far as asking them for anything it's up to you and I was just stating the way it sounded. Some people and I am not in any way saying this about you but some people are always looking for something for nothing. I can appreciate your patience but at the same time I don't understand it? I am enjoying my unit now and not waiting for emails with out one problem and it looks great as well . Best of luck to all of you.