Amen, brother!

Okay, you guys have convinced me. None of us really do hear or see what we think we hear or see, since we need to use our "biased by our experience" brains to do so.

Therefore, I have now joined the camp which says that in reality all components sound the same. And, I will continue to believe that until someone does a DBT, ABCDEFG...X trial and can say to a significant p value of at least .05, that each one of these units sounds differently and that each unit can be idendified by its' sound alone.

Remember though that a DBT requires that some sort of shroud be placed over all units with only a code showing in order to have a real DBT. NONE of the test's researchers nor subjects can know which unit is which until the trial is unblinded at its' conclusion. Testing order and subject selection must also be done on a fully random basis. And, a sufficient number of trials must be done for each unit. Depending on how many components are tested at once, this could mean hundreds of opinions on each unit. Finally, all results should also be valid for each of us. This means that all units must be tested with all possible combinations of equipment so that a p value that shows pre-pro A is better than pre-pro B, is not only a valid statement for that individual mix of components used in that specific testing system. Trial results CANNOT be extrapolated outside of what exactly was tested.

Silly me... I always thought that well controlled DBTs were only good for proving the efficacy of drugs. Now, I realize they are good for everything, including evaluating music and art. Afterall, how can we be sure of anything we hear or see anymore. Dang... I guess I better get started on that DBT of whether or not I really love my wife... DOH!

[This message has been edited by merc (edited June 30, 2002).]

Does someone maybe take all of this, and themselves, just a little too seriously? Maybe.
Either way, it's a source of entertainment that I didn't expect from my HT.
What a bonus!
Mix

[This message has been edited by MixFixJ (edited June 30, 2002).]

Oh Merc, I don't recommend. From someone who's been with one man a long long time.
Some things are better left to BF, (blind faith)

You know, I just dont seem to have to common sense to sit out of these sort of arguments...I may as well run around Minnesota wearing antlers with a huge bulleye across my @$$, but geez guys.

A. we all know not all componients are created alike. I dont think there is any argument out there that states that because component A uses part A, and while componient B uses part B that because the differances in their construction elements make a differance. Come on...if through your sarcasm you are saying that regardless what materials are you, you will always get the same result in componient construction...If that was a case, Technics would dominate the market place.

B. From an electrical standpoint, when we talk about interconnects and speaker wire we are talking about circut properties. If two wires are made identicaly, shielded properly, and have the same resistive properties...the circut will act simmilarly. It's a rather moot point. Now yes, I strongly reccomend getting some quality products (good conductivity...GOOD shielding). I think we cann all agree that the $5.00 s video cable that yoyu can pick up at wal-mart (which I was using before I discovered "quality" products) wont hold up to a decently shield s-video cable. Same thing with the el-cheapo audio cables. Anyone who states that for some reason wire A is better then wire be, although they are both the same wire, and then charge you three or four times (or in some cases ten times) realy aren't any better then Bose selling you a $1,200 "speaker system" that is little more then five clock radio speakers with bass ports, an a $10 boombox speaker for a sub.

I'm the type of person who will come home at the end of a day and spend 3-4 hours with my system before going to bed...and then another 2 hours listening to music before going to work (and then depending on what day it is, and weither I'm at the college, or at the studio) spend another 6-8 hours listeing to music or broadcasts live. My system is far from perfect, but I know where to spend my cash to mazimize the experiance. I know that the last part of my system to get an upgrade is the interconnects.


Now back to my fox hole to watch the flak.

Hi Merc,

I generally leave most of these types of cable threads alone…I’ve yet to see a convert born for either perspective during an on-line discussion!

I have participated and argued for both causes as my post above indicates. My purpose for sharing my personal experience was to provide an alternative view to this debate. Some may find it relevant, others may consider it the babbling of an audio burnout (I was called this by several retailers when I quit finding discernible differences in esoteric cables). In addition, I’ve been accosted by various audiophiles for not sharing their beliefs regarding the sonic effects of these cables. Seems that when you switch sides you forfeit all credibility…

Many of my friends that are into audio still pursue various esoteric cables to enhance their systems. They know I no longer do and we have no conflict with each other’s personal practices or beliefs. We agree to disagree on the impact of these cables (among a few other things). Still we enjoy the hobby together…isn’t this why we’re all here?

As for a suggestion for altering a bright sounding system, I’ll always default to speaker and system setup as well as treating the acoustics of the room. Pretty generic stuff I know. For me, this has always provided the greatest real world results that I could easily quantify.

Best regards,
Tom Garcia

Fix,

Thanks for your comments…they are appreciated!


[This message has been edited by TJG (edited June 30, 2002).]

Merc,

i don't blame you for being frustrated/peaved in trying to help others only to get criticised left and right in doing so. I have no idea what happened at HTF but you have always been helpful and your insight is always appreciated by me anyways. Others blabber on about nothing meaningful while you opt to take the straight shooter approach. The later is obviously a good thing...

Keep the faith man!

When I have some time later tonight, I'll address all of your latest comments directly, but for now, I'm still waiting for the protocol you are going to use to do a simple DBT, ABX comparison of any two cables. Remember, your results must be significant, reliable and valid for ALL of us who are reading your post. Anything else, and once again it comes down to someones personal opinion of what they think they heard or did not hear.

Anyone?

Hi Merc,

I also am limited on time this evening. I can provide a brief outline of some of the testing I’ve been involved in.

Some of the earliest test used the Clark switching device (I forget the official name of this unit) used by Stereo Review during their “infamous” cable test. I believed it would allow different cables to be switched remotely and randomly as well. Many audiophiles including myself question the transparency of the device originally. We then bypassed the switcher unit with identical cables to a different input on the preamp and used the preamp as a switcher to compare the Clark unit inline verse the bypass. All tests were matched to less than one tenth of a db. Through multiple tests I did not achieve a score that showed any significant preference. Later we also used custom designed switchers with high grade contacts that had a computer scoring system which could be programmed to conduct AB, ABX, AA, BB testing randomly or by any combination requested. It is truly amazing how often you will identify AA or BB as being different components when conducting a blind test. As I mentioned I participate in these tests during the course of a few years…about the same time it took me to begin altering my views.

All this really means little. I participated in many tests, I altered my opinion, and nothing that I have experienced during my on going love for music and audio has changed that. Maybe someday something will. Once again, this is only my experience…YMMV!

Best regards,
Tom Garcia


[This message has been edited by TJG (edited June 30, 2002).]

Hi Tom G: As best I can tell, you are a kind soul who has decided that his previous experience biases, regardless of where they are placed, regardless of how valueable those experiences are, are in fact irrlevent, and need to be discarded in your decision process.

As much as you might believe so, I do not agree, even in your case. In fact, I now believe that you are even more aware of those preconceived opinions and are over-reacting for those thoughts while you might listen, test and judge.?

I believe that KNOWING that you might be pregidiced against a certain decision, either because of previous decisions or because of previous knowledge of a unit, actually makes you, or makes me, MORE sensitive to making sure that what I hear is actually "what I hear", and not what I expect to hear. Still... we are occasionally fooled, especially when the choices are close or the same. In that case... what is the problem with siding with the side which makes you personally happy, or is less expensive??? After all, I was not recommending that you try a costly silver cable, but instead... I was suggesting a low cost, high value, copper cable. Which incidendly, the 950 was possibly originally tested and designed with...?

Why in this case would anyone want to do a DBT ABX cable test???

As I mentioned previously, if revealing the truth is your goal... then you probably don't ever want to deal with ART or MUSIC. Both of those are highly subjective and personal in nature.