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#37868 - 07/01/02 01:26 PM Re: Wanna make your 950 sound more like a 1066?
Jed M Offline
Desperado

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 526
Loc: Home on the range
Happy 4th of July as well and not to forget our friendly neighbors to the north, Happy Canada Day! Enjoy the beach Merc! We don't have much water here in Vegas but I can lay out on the sand.

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#37869 - 07/01/02 01:33 PM Re: Wanna make your 950 sound more like a 1066?
merc Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 369
Loc: Deep in the Woodlands of Texas
Jed: thanks for the reminder... Yes, Happy Canada Day too!
Be careful in Vegas this week.

------------------
Take Care,
merc
_________________________
Take Care,
merc
---------------------
merc\'s primary system

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#37870 - 07/01/02 01:47 PM Re: Wanna make your 950 sound more like a 1066?
Smart Little Lena Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/09/02
Posts: 1019
Loc: Dallas
I'm an idiot. Edited for wrong location
Kcuse!

[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited July 01, 2002).]

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#37871 - 07/01/02 01:47 PM Re: Wanna make your 950 sound more like a 1066?
Jeremy Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/09/01
Posts: 72
Loc: San Jose, CA, U.S.
"Audiophile" digital cables are here mainly because someone asked himself how to trasfer a digital signal from one point to another with the least interference possible. This man is "Chris Sommovigo, the first one to manufacture a specially-designed digital cable.
Why not let him explain how the whole thing came out? Mr. Sommovigo, after my request, has written the following interesting article (exclusively for TNT-Audio) that will explain his views on the topic."

© Copyright 2002 Lucio Cadeddu - http://www.tnt-audio.com

"Digital Cables. Those two words when thrown together can spark a raging, vein-popping screaming debate between two otherwise friendly nuns ... not to mention what they do to audiophiles, especially audiophiles enamored of communication over internet news groups. Just point your reader to rec.audio.opinion and pose the question: "Do digital cables make a difference?" ? and then brace yourself for a brutal battle.
It will usually begin with a touch of eloquence, manners, even rather articulate examinations of the topic. It soon degrades into a lumpy-lipped drooling rage. Why?

It seems that some high-minded and educated individuals believe that the cable connecting a CD transport to a DAC cannot possibly have an effect upon the translation of the digital information that it carries. The argument "bits is bits, and them are bits" usually shows up in one form or another, soon to be followed by a usually incomplete examination of digital theory, error correction, noise shaping, Fletcher-Munson curves, Phase Locked Loops. Wielding this information like a priest might wield a crucifix against a particularly nasty vampire, the denizens of this philosophical camp are usually disappointed when the intended victim of their diatribe doesn't readily disappear in a puff of green smoke. Instead, the scurrilous heathen simply fire back from their "subjectivist" viewpoint that, regardless of what the theory may have to say about the audibility of variations in digital cables, there is an impressively large group of people who have for many years observed and appreciated the audible differences between digital cables.

This is just another layer heaped on top of the whole "audiophile cable" debate that has raged for at least two decades. While Dilbert after Dilbert launches theoretical stone after theoretical stone at the audiophile analog and digital cable world from their own flat-earth, terra-centric universe, the fact remains that over the last 20 years the industry has grown to accept and appreciate the sonic contributions that audiophile cables have made. However, there was a bit of splintering back in the day when digital cables first showed up on the scene ? some fence-riders accepted the ability of analog cables contributing to the overall sonic presentation of the hi-fi system, but couldn't reconcile that a digital cable could have a similar effect. Their understanding of the digital equation, based largely on incomplete marketing materials, disallowed the digital cable phenomenon. A short-lived victory for the flat-earthers, because the high-end specialized digital cable had quickly become accepted as another important piece of the audio-rig, a component in and of itself.

The initial rise in popularity of separate digital components must be directly credited to Audio Alchemy. Indirectly, one might also credit them with the rise in awareness about the digital cable debate and digital cables in general. The reason is fairly simple: Audio Alchemy was the first to make a truly inexpensive outboard digital to analog converter, the DDE. When the DDE was released it sold like crazy. For the first time regular Joes, audiophiles on a budget, enjoyed the luxury of an outboard DAC and took advantage of that mysterious single RCA jack on the back of their CD players. Thousands upon thousands of DDE's sold around the world to people who suddenly were in need of, you guessed it, digital cables.

Much of the industry initially responded with an unfortunate supply of "digital" cables that were essentially just the analog interconnect cables that they had already been selling, one length broken out of a pair and repackaged for the purpose. The standards for S/PDIF interface (Sony/Philips Digital InterFace) were either largely misunderstood or largely ignored. That's when I jumped in with my first product, the DataStream Reference digital cable. It was a true 75 Ohm semirigid cable, stiff as virgin on prom night, and sported two huge, bulbous connectors that could have been equally at home on the business-end of a hookah. They were shaped that way so that they could extend the 75 Ohm impedance characteristic as far as possible before terminating into the RCA jack on the target DAC. The Illuminati DataStream Reference had the world's very first 75 Ohm RCA plugs. THAT got enough attention from a few of the right people that I was able to actually get the ugly thing listened to. It was actually the first cable to break The $ensible $ound barrier with a fantastic reception by Gerald Burt. A couple of more decent reviews later and the news would be out: digital cables matter, and the proof was the DataStream Reference.

Why did it make a difference? The upshot of the theory was that it provided a correct impedance match for what was essentially an RF interface, and as such allowed for an appropriate bandwidth and didn't allow for as many signal reflections as competitive products did. The important part was that it was probably the first truly proper cable for this relatively new interface, and it was being appreciated.

Over the following couple of years I developed a flexible version of that cable, marketed as the model D-60 and also as the DataFlex Studio. The D-60 was to the digital cable world what the DDE was to the DAC world, and soon the D-60 was the ubiquitous reference digital cable. Good timing, great product, lots of luck and no complaints. The D-60 remains unchanged, still marketed worldwide and still used in both home and professional audio systems.

What made that cable so different from its competition was the attention to the needs of the interface and the standard imposed by the interface. This was my brand of design, my philosophy for getting the most out of the potential of the interface. But it would be short-sighted and unfair of me not to mention that there were plenty of people who didn't prefer the D-60 in their systems and that actually chose cables that did not necessarily adhere to the standards of the interface. While my formula for success was based upon the certain technical requirements of the interface standard, others have enjoyed success with wholly different approaches to the problem. Even today you will find a variety of design approaches in digital cable products, and a variety of adherents to each and every one of them.

As an audiophile and music lover I appreciate the efforts that have been put forth by others in this industry trying to solve the digital cable conundrum. It's at the very least an incredibly interesting subject to participate in and also very satisfying to explore experientially. That is what our beloved editor has embarked upon in this shootout: an exploration of the experience of listening to different digital cables without regard for the technology or philosophy governing their construction ? just an appreciation for their effect on the music as noted by pure observation.

If repetition and replication can be said to be the mother of scientific method, then observation must necessarily be its father. That is what the babbling, lumpy-lipped flat-earthers fail to appreciate when they scream raging Papisms from the Audio Vatican. Good science is founded upon observation, bad science is trapped on paper. What's it mean? It means that no one can choose a girl or a digital cable for you. Trust your own observations."
Courtesy by © 2002 Chris Sommovigo exclusively for TNT-Audio


Just my little contribution in stiring the $#!T!!

Everyone have a Happy 4th of July!!!

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#37872 - 07/01/02 03:39 PM Re: Wanna make your 950 sound more like a 1066?
bigmac Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 52
That is one funny argument in favor of digital cables.... no facts. Just throw out some technical terms to make everyone think you know what you are talking about, and throw insults at anyone who disagrees. "Flat earthers" over and over. Hee, hee!

The arguments in favor of digital cables get even funnier when extended to include formats like Dolby Digital. DD is a compressed, packetized digital format. The packets are reconstructed by the processor,
disassembled, and processed. Jitter on a cable will either cause complete failure (dropouts) or no effect at all. External devices that 'stabilize' this bitstream are a joke.

Here's a perfect analogy: I'll zip up a word document. I'll e-mail it from two different ISPs. It will therefore be broken up into some number of packets, each of which will take various routes to get to the destination. Along the way, they will go through many wire types, many protocols, and probably across cheap, noisy phone lines. Unzip each once they reach the destination, and count how many words have changed. In the very unlikely event some bits got flipped around, you'll have an invalid zip file (=dropouts), or it will be perfect.

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#37873 - 07/01/02 04:31 PM Re: Wanna make your 950 sound more like a 1066?
HT crazed Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 124
Interesting discussion. Boy am I glad I didn't know before that there was no differences between interconnects - I would have returned my DVD9000ES which I love now.

When I first got it, the treble was very rolled off and the whole presentation was out of whack with minor details overpowering the vocalist etc. Before returning the unit though, I asked my audio dealer what he'd recommend to give better bass extention, not roll of treble etc as much as my AudioQuests.

He recommended the straight-wire brand, and sure enough it did the trick. The mids weren't as sweet, but the presentation was corrected and everything put in its place. As I posted elsewhere, the Outlaw cables even were another slight improvement over the straight-wire.

Discussions, reviews, etc are helpful, but end of day hearing is believing.

BTW, anyone looking to save $5 on the Merc deal - here is the basic message of his thousands of postings at any time near the 950 introduction(s).

blah blah blah blah... buy the 950. I said Buy the 950! BUY THE FREAKEN 950 RIGHT NOW!!! JUST BUY IT OK??? How'd I do Merc?
No offense inteded, just havin a little fun.

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#37874 - 07/01/02 04:34 PM Re: Wanna make your 950 sound more like a 1066?
bigmac Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 52
Some interesting links:

ABX test results for various things (DACs, interconnects, speaker wires, scroll to table at bottom of page:

http://users.htdconnect.com/~djcarlst/abx_data.htm

Notice that no significant differences between any tested interconnects or speaker wires. However, a level difference of only 0.3dB was identifiable 76% of the time, up to 93% for 0.4dB.
Also interesting were the video and MiniDisc tests. In both cases, test tones/signals were different, but real-world material did not show identifiable differences.
This shows how our brains can tend to fill in gaps and hide things: basically the process that all lossy compression schemes (MPEG, DD, DTS, etc) all feed on.

Cable manufacturer won't do listening test:
http://www.vxm.com/21R.64.html

Will post other interesting finds later..

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#37875 - 07/01/02 06:48 PM Re: Wanna make your 950 sound more like a 1066?
neuroaudio Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 20
What's unfortunate about this thread is that I think everybody started out with the best of intentions:

1) Merc and company suggested that for those who just dropped a grand on a new processor and are not loving its sound, they might be able to solve their problems with a relatively cheap fix.

2) Others feared that these new 950 owners were going to waste money on a solution that wouldn't actually make a difference.

And, unfortunately, when people put their money where their mouth is, emotions run strong.

The standard problem that Merc and others have raised with the ABX argument is that there hasn't been lots and lots of extensive ABX testing by many different people with lots of different ancillary equipment. Pro-cable-difference people argue that this means that there is insufficient scientific evidence to dismiss the possibility that cables make a difference. Anti-cable-difference people argue that if there existed any setup in which expensive boutique cables were clearly discernable from cheaper varieties, surely the well-funded cable companies would have published such results, given the huge financial benefits that such a published study would bring them. Thus, each side takes the LACK of evidence as supporting their claim. And, unfortunately, they're both right, though on different levels.

Given the multi-million dollar cable industry, more extensive ABX testing really should be done in order to put the issue to rest. But who would pay for it? The only public ABX tests I know of all suggest that differences between well-constructed cables aren't discernable. That likely makes the risk of failure for substantive experiments unbearable for cable companies. Moreover, in my opinion, is it not a viable option for audio magazines, who receive valuable advertising dollars from cable companies and sell copies by touting their "golden ear" reviewers, who are allegedly able to hear these differences. Anyone remember the $20 CD edge laser light blocking pens that made Stereophile's Recommended Components list?

Personally, I don't believe in the value of the esoteric cables because (1) not a single ABX test of which I know supports their making a difference, (2) physics suggests that their miniscule LRC differences are orders of magnitude too small to have discernable psychoacoustic effects, and (3) I've personally never been able to hear the difference in blind comparisons. I believe that my opinion is well-founded, but I know that it is not proof. My great concern is that heated discussions like this will be going on for a long time, because it is in no corporation's interest to scientifically test the validity of cable corporations' claims.

Merc requested some info on cable testing... this info was posted in the Interconnect forum:

Quote:
Originally posted by pink in the Outlaw Interconnect forum:

Here's a link to a double blind study comparing stuff like $1000 speaker cable vs 16guage zipcord and expensive interconnects vs $2.50 rca cables.
http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm

heres a post from John Dunlavy (Dunlavy Audio Labs) on the subject:
http://www.verber.com/mark/cables.html

nice story about interconnect company refusing to take part in any actual scientific testing:
http://www.vxm.com/21R.64.html

finally, if you want to read a bunch more, check out http://2eyespy.tripod.com/myaudioandhometheaterhomepage/id3.html

It has the link to the coathanger test i mentioned above, but it seems to be down.


Originally posted by pink in the Outlaw Interconnect forum:

http://home.austin.rr.com/tnulla/dunlavy9.htm


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#37876 - 07/01/02 08:22 PM Re: Wanna make your 950 sound more like a 1066?
Avi Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 62
Loc: Northern New Jersey, USA
Jason,

Oh, I agree with you completely. In fact (since everyone else is throwing URLs around), one of my first columns was on the subject: Controversial Topics: Politics, Religion, and Cables . But I have learned not to take things too far in the other direction, either: lamp cord should be left to lamps. Maybe my batch was an anomaly, but the lesson I learned was to stick with cable that's designed to pass an audio signal and has a higher level of quality control.

-avi

[This message has been edited by Avi (edited July 02, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Avi (edited July 02, 2002).]
_________________________
Regular home theater / consumer electronics column posted at http://www.greengart.com .

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#37877 - 07/02/02 12:23 AM Re: Wanna make your 950 sound more like a 1066?
TJG Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 14
Hi Jeremy,

Thanks for your input and information.

I do have a question regarding the comment in your post that states “Trust your own observations". If I put a straight pole into a pool of water, the pole will look like it’s bent (a case of refraction). If I slide my hand over the pole, with my eyes closed and through the water, it will still feel and seem straight. Which observation should I trust?

This is not intended to invalidate your opinion. And my inquiry definitely doesn’t support either perspective. It’s just another thing to make you go hmmmmm…

Best regards,
Tom Garcia

[This message has been edited by TJG (edited July 02, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by TJG (edited July 02, 2002).]

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