Hello,

When I turn my subwoofer off and play a CD in either the stereo mode or the bypass mode, the full frequency range goes to my two main speakers. The frequency is NOT affected by the crossover setting. Is this normal?

Again, this is only for stereo mode and bypass mode, not in the surround or DTS or DPL modes. I know this was an issue that's been discussed with the 5.1 analog inputs, but I think it's an issue with stereo and bypass modes too.

If I turn the subwoofer on, I'll hear the subwoofer which is affected by the crossover setting and so it also gets the low frequency sound, that goes to the mains.
Can anyone else duplicate my results?

I had Ricky over here today and he heard the same thing. The main speakers, when listening to either stereo or bypass mode, when the sub is off, is unaffected by the triple crossover setting, and the full frequency range goes to the two main speakers.

This sounds like the opposite of what rmbg heard, since he wanted to listen to 2 channel without a sub and got no bass in stereo bypass mode.

Strange huh?

rmbg (Ricky) was here and didn't hear the no-bass problem he heard on his 950, on my 950. He could hear bass on my 950 fine, with my sub turned off. He brought over and played CD's he was familiar with.

On *my* 950 on the other hand, when the front speaker crossover is set to *anything* from 40 Hz to 150 Hz, the exact same music comes out when the subwoofer is physically turned off.

Has anyone else been able to duplicate this on their 950? Just play CDs with low frequency content in stereo or bypass mode, with the subwoofer turned off.

I played regular stereo CDs with low frequency content.

Will


[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 07, 2002).]

Will, do you have a discrete test tone disc? That might be the best way of quantifying what's going on. (Stryke, Autosounds 2000, etc.)

In analog bypass mode, I think that's what it's supposed to do. But in stereo mode, it should be using the crossover...

First I would like to thank Will for his hospitality. Yup, I definitely did not hear the bass problem (or lackness) that my system is experiencing but thats a different topic.

I agree with Will where I did not hear the difference between the Small\40hz and Small\150hz in stereo mode. We tested this with both his 950 units and it performed the same way. We did test with a bass cd with different bass levels and switched between 40-150 and did not hear any difference at all.

Hello All,

The large/small and crossover settings in the by-pass mode do not effect the main speakers. At all times the main speakers will see a full bandwidth signal. If the main speakers are set to "small" in the speaker configuration menu the x-over setting chosen which determine at what point the signal is also redirected to the sub. So, if your main speakers are set to "large" your sub will be inactive during playback in the by-pass mode. If your main speakers are set to "small" and a crossover of 60 Hz is selected, your mains speakers will continue to receive an unaltered full bandwidth signal. However, your sub will also see the bass information from 60 Hz and below.

Scott

So at Will's place, was the 950 set to "stereo" or "bypass"? Were the mains set to "large" or "small"?

What about at Ricky's on his 950?

Based on what Scott said, setting the thing to "bypass" and "small", and you can get the double-bass, assuming you have full range mains. Set to large and no double-bass, only the mains are active. Set to small in "stereo" and the crossover avoids the double-bass as well. Not sure what would cause no bass in 2-channel, unless you were set to "stereo" & "small", turned off your sub, and had a high crossover.

At Will's we tried both stereo and bypass. His speakers were set to small and 60hz. We tried playing with xover settings switching between 40 and 150 on both stereo and bypass. I probably would agree with the bypass since its not doing any processing but in stereo we should have heard some differences. Don't get me wrong, there was bass going thru Will's towers we just didnt hear any differences between the xover settings. Now in DPLII-M or DTS NEO, we definitely heard a difference in the settings.

The problem with my 950 is different and I am working with Scott to troubleshoot it. Thanks Scott.

Ricky, I'm glad you came over!

Based on our experience and what Scott wrote above, we know that in bypass, the full frequency range goes to the front speakers even when the front speakers are set to small. This means the front speakers have to be able to handle a *full* frequency range, in bypass. When the fronts are set to small, bass also goes to the subwoofer (double bass).

This is different than the 5.1 analog input, although both can make double bass. With 5.1 analog, the full frequency range does NOT go to the speakers when the bass management switch is on. However the under 80-Hz content always goes to the subwoofer, independent of the bass management switch.

The difference is, with bypass, the front speakers always get the full frequency range, but the output to the sub is optional. With 5.1 analog on the other hand, the main speakers don't always get the full frequency range, but the output to the subwoofer always gets the under 80-Hz content.

Does anybody know why Stereo (not bypass) sends the full frequency range to the front speakers? Stereo acts like bypass in that regard at least on *my* 950.

Does the stereo mode act differently on other people's 950?

Will: good questions. Are you using analog input, or opt/coax digital PCM input?



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Take Care,
merc

I don't know if it should matter, but I'm using coax from my CD. Is anybody able to make the stereo mode (as opposed to a DPL2 or DTS surround mode) not send the full frequency to the front speakers? With my 950, with the fronts set to small and the crossover either 40 or 150 Hz, the speakers get the FULL frequency range, just like they would with the speakers set to large.

The DPL2 and DTS modes appear to work fine, but the stereo mode sends the full frequency range to the front speakers, even when the fronts are set up as small. The subwoofer is STRONGLY affected by the crossover point in stereo mode, but the front speakers don't seem to be affected. You can physically turn your sub off and see if you hear the same thing.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 08, 2002).]

Will,
When you say "coax from my CD" is that analog rca or digital coax? If that is digital, then all bets are off. The bypass is really short for "analog bypass". It is not intended to be used with a digital input. That could explain the strange results.

But, I do agree that in "stereo" mode (which basically means 2.0 surround mode) the crossover should affect the output of the mains, assuming they are set to small. If set to large, the crossover setting will have no effect.

I'm setting to STEREO. The switch is *not* set to BYPASS. Yes, if it was set to BYPASS then as Scott says, it would alway pass the full frequency range to the front speakers. But it's not set to BYPASS in this case. The front speakers are set as small. Yet I hear the full frequency range, unaffected by the crossover setting. I've switched the crossover setting from 40 to 150 Hz and I hear no difference.

Has anybody else had the chance to try this, with your subwoofer physically turned off?

It sounds like 1 of 2 things - either:

1) You have a defective unit, or

2) The "triple-crossover" only crosses-over the sub outputs, not the main outputs. Thus it only sets what frequencies go to the sub. The mains always get the full-range signal.

Will: If you are inputting a coax digital audio signal, choosing stereo(with your speakers set to small and a 80Hz crossover set), you should NOT get a full range signal to your front channels. I can't even imagine how this would happen since the DACs and DSP chip would be utilized for digital processing of the PCM bitstream to a stereo + sub signal.? Right? Unless... somehow, there is the parallel analog chain which occurs after the DACs and before the DSP, and that trace is the same one used for the 5.1(L/R) and 2 channel analog bypass route? Maybe... all the analog bypass setting does is turn off the DSP processing?
I hope this isn't another suprise "benefit" of the 950.

I'll try it tomorrow with my 950 and report back here...

------------------
Take Care,
merc

[This message has been edited by merc (edited July 08, 2002).]

Merc- Let us know... Must be some other 950 owners out there who can test this too...

Thanks Merc! I appreciate you trying this on your 950. On *my* 950, a of DPL2 or DTS works fine but a of STEREO acts the way a of BYPASS acts. First, verify that changing the crossover has no effect with of BYPASS. That's your control case. Then see if you get the same result with the of STEREO.

In the first case, according to Scott, the full frequency range should be passed to your front speakers. With *my* 950 I don't hear anything different with a 40 Hz crossover, than with a 150 Hz crossover, in either case. I played CD's with plenty of low frequency content. Be sure if you do this that your speakers won't mind if they get the lows. Most speakers should roll off the lows they can't reproduce, but other speakers can't handle the low lows. Don't forget to physically turn off or disconnect the subwoofer.

And thanks again!

Will


[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 09, 2002).]

Okay... here is what I found with my 950.

CD player connected via digital audio coax only. 950 with Digital Coax selected and mode on STEREO.

Front Speakers: Large
Sub: On
Sub Power: On
Crossover: 40-150Hz
I got NO subwoofer output at all with the front speakers set to large, regardless of crossover setting. IS THIS CORRECT?

Front Speakers: Small
Sub: On
Sub Power: On
Crossover: 40-150Hz
I could not easily detect any difference in the sound regardless of which crossover point was selected. However, when I walked over to my sub, or watched the green signal light on the front of my sub amp, I could see that the sub received more signal as I set the crossover higher. Yet, I am somewhat uncertain if my front L/R speakers are getting the same signal, regardless of the crossover point?

Front Speakers: Small
Sub: On
Sub Power: OFF
Crossover: 40-150Hz
Alright! When I turned off the subs amp, I could easily detect the differences in front channel sound as I changed crossover points. With the sub power disabled, I could easily hear that the crossovers and stereo modes worked correctly. Possibly due to the nice tonal matching of my subwoofer to my speakers, it was very hard for me to detect any difference when I switched crossover freq and deflected those freqs from my front channels to my subwoofer, while the sub amp was on.

Anyway, since I have done this test, I feel more sure recommending that, unfortunately, Will's unit may be faulty. Or... that my unit's software is somehow set up differently???

Sorry I couldn't be of more help!


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Take Care,
merc

[This message has been edited by merc (edited July 09, 2002).]

merc,

I expected exactly what you heard. It sounds like your unit works as advertised.

Care to experiment for us using an analog input from the CD player?

Merc,

I'm glad you checked my work because I often make silly mistakes. And this is one of those times. Boy do I feel stupid. I just tried my 950 again. I got the same results you got. With the sub power turned off, and the front speakers set to small, I also hear a difference when the crossover changes from 40 Hz to 150 Hz. I apologize for causing you guys so much inconvenience. I probably got confused between STEREO and BYPASS, or maybe left the sub on in STEREO but off in BYPASS. Anyway, I came to a very wrong conclusion.

Mea culpa!

Anyway, to answer your question as best I can...

I also get no subwoofer output with the front speakers set to large. I get no subwoofer output with the front speakers set to large, in STEREO mode as you note and also in BYPASS mode. It think BYPASS mode has double bass with front speakers set small only, NOT large.
Actually you were very helpful, Merc. Hope this sets the record straight for everybody. I am eating humble pie. And my hat too, figuratively speaking.

Will & Merc: Thank you!!

Guys: I am glad to be of help when I can.

In the meantime...
With all the hubub over the way that the 950 splits the signal in 5.1 and analog bypass modes... I just read that the $4K Aragon Stage One apparently does the same thing. But, no one has complained of any double bass with that unit so far. Also, the Stage One does not have the Triple crossover but merely a single global crossover for all speakers.

And, just FYI, I am not gonna say that the $900 Outlaw 950 is as good as processors costing 4 times as much...
Okay, okay... I know. But at least the Aragon is available for sale...

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Take Care,
merc

[This message has been edited by merc (edited July 10, 2002).]