Yeah, another GREAT S&V "comparison"! Let's see, the prices of the 3 they compare are something like $1200, $2500, and $4200 (I don't have the magazine in front of me). Each one is practically double the price of the previous one. This is hardly a comparison. It is more like 3 "reviews" in one article. The buyer's price range is only going to include 1 of the 3 units.

Hi BenjaminKing,

A standard apples-to-apples way to compare the umph of a power amp to the umph of a receiver is to try and get the power out from 20 to 20kHz on all channels driven simultaneously. If you can get that for the Pioneer Elite 49TX and Denon 5803, then you can see how they really compare, in terms of power to a separate amp.

Will

Will,

I agree, but unfortunately, that was all that I could find. If anyone has any other data, I would be very interested to see it.

Does anyone have that data for the 770?

------------------
Benjamin King
benjaminking@yahoo.com

Power 'ratings' are very suspect, and easily manipulated. The frequency bandwidth, load, etc all can influence the numbers dramatically. Driving an amp with a continuous signal is not a real-world test. Far more important is current capacity and headroom. Even at very loud volumes, with speakers of typical efficiency, a very low wattage is needed. The loud peaks in a soundtrack are where the most power is needed, and those are almost ALWAYS very transient.

This is where headroom, and deep current capacity become more important than a continuous load reading. All else equal, an amp with say 60 watts continuous, but peak headroom to provide transient peaks to 120 watts will perform better in the real world than one with 80 watts continuous, but clips on peaks above 100 watts.

Also, don't forget how much of a power increase is required for only a minor increase in actual volume. 3 dB needs DOUBLE the power. Double the perceived volume is about 10dB, which needs roughly 10 TIMES the amp power to achieve.

In short, don't get too caught up in comparing this 140 wpc rcvr versus this one at 120 wpc. Other features will be far more important. Also, separates tend to have far more headroom capacity, so comparing a 60 wpc separate amp vs a 120 wpc rcvr isn't necessarily valid.

Try www.geocities.com/area51/hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm. This is a Stereo Review/Sound & Vision report summary. It has the D49TX at 148w at clipping for 5 channels, 144w for 6 channels. The Denon 5803 is rated 138w for 5 channels and 118.2w for 7 channels. These are all channels driven at clipping - 1khz 8 ohms .3%thd + noise. I think the new Outlaw amp will probably be rated 100-120watts so the package would compete straight with the premium receivers - Yamaha RX-Z1, etc. Pricing comparisons will be difficult as Yamaha rarely if ever is found discounted from any authorized supplier, Denon is available from 6ave highly discounted yet still authorized - 5803 is $3400, I have not checked the Pioneer Elite. The Outlaw package even with the 770 amp is a great price but may not be available for quite some time yet.
I am considering the Denon 5803 as Denon has proven that they will actually upgrade their premium receiver as they have with the 5700 and 5800. Many manufacturers promise to but have never actually offered anything more than software flash upgrades. The Onkyo 989 is another that has been upgraded several times with additional sound processing modes. This is a great feature. I would prefer to spend in the $2500 range like the Outlaw package but just can not wait forever. The new Yamaha RX-Z1 is supposed to be a nice unit but lacks all the extra bass management features of the Denon (although about $6-800 price diff).
Pete in Louisiana

Hi Pete in Louisiana,

The current Outlaw amps are rated at 20 to 20 kHz all channels driven, not at 1Khz. To compare apples to apples, just find what the Denon 5803 and the Pioneer 49TX produce from 20 to 20 kHz with all channels driven. That way, you can see how they really compare to a separate amp. Most separate amps, from Outlaw and others, have power ratings at 20 to 20 kHz. It's easier to build power rated ONLY at 1 Khz than to build the same power rated at from 20 to 20 kHz. Receiver manufacturers and amplifier manufacturers and everybody in audio knows this.

This is from the Outlaw 770 spec sheet:


Will


[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 13, 2002).]

Ideally? The only way to compare is to someday read (a) review(s) in S&V (for example) of all the components you'd want to compare. I have seen components rated at specs by the manufacturer that weren't met when actually measured...

Many reviewers will measure power from 20 to 20 kHz, all channels driven, for a multichannel amplifier. Unfortunately the same reviewers often won't measure power from 20 to 20 kHz, all channels driven, for a multichannel receiver.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 13, 2002).]

Will,
I agree completely. It sure would be nice to be able to compare receivers directly to amplifiers. Being in the market myself, I would love to be able to really compare the "true" power of the premium receivers to the many amplfiers out there. For some reason, the receiver manufacturers do not want to give the real measurements. I believe that NAD and HarmonKardon at least in the past would give true power ratings that always looked low on a spec sheet compared to their low cost competition but it did not seem to hurt their sales too much. The Sound&Vision summary is interesting in that at least you get to see if the manufacturer's claims are anywhere close to the tested power. Some of the receivers only put out 50-60% of rating even at clipping!
Pete in Louisiana

Don't count out the Yamaha stuff. I have been using a DSP AX1 (graymarket) piece with good results. They (Yamaha) claim it to be 150 wpc. It has over 50 DSP modes of which several are actually usable. This includes DD and DTS 6.1ES. The sound (to my old ears) is as good as some of the separates I have run in the past.

It also has a funky extra pair of amplified channels for front effects. These are at 45 wpc. I have those wired in as well, but I can't really say they add much.

If you want the DPL2 and neo6 etc you'll have to look at the successor model..the DSP AZ1.

Having said all this, I still think if you want to buy a receiver, buy a 1050 and spend the savings on high compliance speakers. You absolutely will get more for your money that way. Unless your Home Theater is bigger than 300 square feet, you are talking about very minor differences in sound quality.

Eddyboy