While the Yamaha AX1 is better than some of the separates in the past, I would expect some of the current crop of separates (like the 950 with it's matching lower-powered amp) to sound better (even to my old ears).

If you are going to get a receiver rather than separates, and don't want to spend more than the 1050 costs, I'd recommend considering a receiver in the 1050's price range, with DPL2 and/or NEO6. To me, DPL2 and NEO6 are very much superior to the (typically unlistenable) sound effects used before DPL2 and NEO6 came on the scene.

Will and I are in violent agreement.

My post in re the Yamaha was in regards to its utility vis a vis the big iron from Pioneer and Onkyo, Denon, etc. In many cases you are buying features and brand name as much as incremental sound quality.

Unless you're running huge, inefficient speakers, the 1050 will compare favorably with them in the sound department.


eddyboy

[This message has been edited by eddyboy (edited July 15, 2002).]

I'm on the waiting list for 950/770 but in the mean time considering receivers. At one point was thinking the Integra 9.1 would be the unit to make me happy (auditioned the speakers I bought on it) but lately have been thinking the Denon 5803 would be better although have not heard it. This tentative conclusion is based mostly on the review in Stereophile (its for the 5800 but I'm assuming the 5803 is as good or better sounding). In this review specific reference is made to comparisons between the Integra 9.
1 and the Denon 5800:
http://www.guidetohometheater.com/showarchives.cgi?12
Any comments or opinions?

Jeff

I think the Denon super-receiver is probably a step down, in terms of sound (but maybe not features) compared to similarly priced separates, from (for example) Rotel.

[This message has been edited by fmcorps (edited July 17, 2002).]

Well, I wrote up a very long and detailed comment, but I think my computer just crapped out on me. So I'll try this again.

When I auditioned recievers, I was basically trying to find a reciever that would "work for a while" but I knew that I would most likly be selling it off in a few years. That's why I opted for the (far) cheaper 6.2 over the 9.1. However I did listen to just about everything between $400-$5,000 that my dealer had (which, If i remember correctly were various Harmon Kardon, Onkyo, Denon, Pioneer, Integra, and B&K. Sony, NAD, MAcIntosh, Yamaha, Denon, and Onkyo were at another shop in town...and I didn't listen to closely to them because the service at that shop is HORRIBLE).

It's interesting that you brought up that review, becaus I found that the sonic properties were the opposite. The Denon sounded "airy" the midringe felt realy light when compaired to the Integra. Ant the wierd thing is that I prefer the sound of a detailed system...so much that I prefer the sound of the Monitor line of Paradigm over the Studio line, because I can hear more details. (and far prefer Paradigms in general to say B&W, or Boston for the same reasons).

To me the Integra sounded far more natural, while maintaining detail that I'm searching for. The B&K was very rich, but to me it sounded realy "muddy" or veiled when coupled with the paradigms (which are an inherently "bright" speaker...wait I"ve already established that...). Sory, Insomnia is starting to hit. :yawn: For me the Integra was exactly what I was looking for. It made my music (at least the decent recordings) sound realistic. And for the REALY well recorded CD's...Man, my girl frind still tells me how much I suck when I pop in my Miles Davis SACD's, and when I pop in the Beethoven 4'th on DVD-A she jokes about refusing to talk to me. (That is a good thing.) The funny thing is that our local shymphony just did B-4 about a month before I got the DVD-A's...Man, I had goos bumps on just how realistic it sounded in my living room.

So, anyway I still back the Integra's. Even though I decided on the cheaper one (to just save some sheckles...and replace the Technics SADX-940 reciever I purchased a year before that) I am extremly pleased. The Integra's are a great line, and I strongly reccomend them.

Good points fmcorps. It brings to mind what I’ve come to realize in my quest for better sound: how subjective the choice is and you can’t rely just on reviews and what you read in forums. You listened to many receivers while I have been relying more on reviews. Guess I don't have time to get out and audition as much, which is of course an essential part of making a decision. It all comes down to what sounds best to each person. I also have a lot of respect for the Integra line based on comments from the dealer I bought my speakers from, how those speakers sounded when I auditioned them with the DTR 9.1, and what I've read about Integra. The speakers I bought are Monitor Audio Silver 9i fronts, 12i center and Silver surrounds. I have read and been told by other dealers they are "bright" and somewhere in my reading seem to recall that the Integra is also bright, so in combination they theoretically may not be a good combination. Yet in the dealer’s showroom I thought it sounded great. I went back and forth between that place and a dealer next door listening to Paradigm Studio 60s (or were they 80’s?) played through an upper end Marantz receiver. I thought the Monitor Audio speakers had better midrange detail and upper end clarity on female vocals and dialog in movie soundtracks was clearer. At home they also sound very good to my ears played through my Rotel RSX-965 receiver which I’ve had for about five years (75 watts x 5, DD, DTS). But maybe not quite as good as through the Integra 9.1 they were auditioned on. So this has started my quest for something better for a receiver or processor/amp combination. For the past three weeks I’ve had a Rotel RMB-1095 amp (200 watts x 5) in my system using my receiver as a pre-amp/processor. I can’t tell much difference between that and just my receiver. I think I can hear some difference but I really have to listen. So I finally pulled the plug and I’m returning the amp today. The experience I’ve had points out how subjective much of our perceptions are and even how some of us (myself especially) can't hear what others can. I realize my receiver may be limiting what the big Rotel amp can do, and with the Rotel 1066 processor it would probably sound better to me (a lot better to those with better ears ). But I’m pretty sure for my ears the much less expensive Outlaw 950 / 770 combo would suit me very well. Or maybe the Integra 9.1 or Denon 5803 (if I decide not to wait for the Outlaw). If I could audition all three with my speakers either in my home or even in a dealers showroom I certainly would. Your comments about that review I posted also makes me think about subjectivity. Reviewers hear differently than we do and what sounds good to them may sound different to us. And that reviewer also said the Integra 9.1 and Denon 5800 were very close, so for me either one would be a great choice I’m sure. Also need to consider ease of use which was mentioned in that review (Integra better). The dealer my speakers came from is offering the Integra 9.1 for a great price however, and there is something to be said to having a good relationship with a dealer. I like this place. They even delivered the speakers to my house, which is a 50 mile one way trip. So I’m not sure what I’ll end up with at this point. I understand the advantage of separates, so maybe the Outlaw. I was listening to my receiver last night; sounds good so I could live with it while I wait.

I had a similar experience. I compared a receiver by itself, versus using the same receiver as a pre/pro, mated to a powerful external amp. I heard some improvement I'll admit, but it wasn't alot. I kept the amp. Much later when finally, I replaced the receiver with a REAL pre/pro, which in my case was an Outlaw 950, my system sounded SIGNIFICANTLY clearly much better. Going from my receiver (in my case it was a Sony) mated to a 200Wx5 amp, to a real pre/pro mated to the same amp, was THE big step.

If I had more inefficient speakers, mating a powerful external amp to the receiver would make more difference. But my speakers don't require lots of power. They're efficient.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 17, 2002).]

Thanks for the feedback. Got similar advice at hometheaterforum:

"The RMB-1095 is a very capable amp. However, mated with a receiver for its prepro stage will of course hamper its performance. I've not heard the Rotel 1066 personally, but many who have love it. I have however listened to Rotel's previous prepro offerings(976 and 985) and didn't quite like them. I ended up with an RMB-1095 and a TagMcLaren AV32R. I've not heard the 5803 either so I can't give you any direct comparisons, but if its worth anything, I've heard the 3801, and even a cheap Parasound AVC-1800 prepro beats it quite significantly. Of course the 5803 should be a huge step up from the 3801."

"What Sihan says is very correct. In a given system, the bigger difference in sound will come from changing the processor rather than the amp, and at the moment, your receiver is holding back your amp. To give you an example, for a short period of time I had an Adcom GTP-830, itself a nice processor, mated to a Classe CAV-150 amp. The performance was nothing short of mediocre, and after I hooked up a Sunfire processor to it, the change in soundstage, dynamics, and imaging was overwhelming. To further answer your dilemma, I believe that you will get better performance from your amplifier once you have the new processor, but you will also get similar performance from a high end receiver such as the Denon."

So no final decisions have been made yet. Reading a recent thread here:

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000411.html

makes me unsure of the Outlaw 950. But I also know there are many satisfied owners.

When I take the Rotel amp back after work today I will be explaining again to the dealer why. During the first week I called him and explained that I wasn't hearing much difference. He offered to extend the money back period until he had a 1066 processor for me to try. That was a great offer so I said ok but I was also having trouble with the amp shutting down the Panamax everything runs through. Panamax said they were aware of the problem with high current amps, they had just devised a fix and I sent it back for the update. Then a few days later the amp started causing a audible hum through all the speakers after running about an hour. Out of frustration I simply decided to return the amp. But at the dealer tonight I'll explain the hum and see if I can take a different amp home. There is a lot of interest in the 1066 processor on this forum and others so I should probably at least hear it before taking if off the list of possibilities.

I had a similar experience. I sold off my
Sunfire Theater Grand 1 expecting imminent
arrival of the 950. After this protracted
wait, I mated my Cinema Grand Signature Sunfire (405 wpc) with the DSP AX1 (note above). I should interject that selling the Sunfire was really a dumb idea.

The Yamaha is just fine and does all I ask of it. However there was an intangible with the Sunfire PrePro piece that put you into the movie. This is just not there in the high ticket Yamaha. As an experiment based on
this thread I disconnected the big amp and played the Yamaha straight up. NO DIFFERENCES noted. The sound, presence, timbre, detail, definition, and all those other audiophile words were identical. Even the bass was the same which was a surprise.

I guess I expected more impact and coloration from the power amp. I guess I
am only running at about 10 to 20 wpc in either event, so headroom is plenty in either case.

Having said all that, I suppose my point is that after a certain point, incremental improvements are extremely small and ungodly expensive. Trust your ears and your gut and try to ignore the marketing hype.

eddyboy