Does anyone have any experience with the Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX THX Ultra2? I have been able to find it online for right around $2500.00, and it looks like a solid piece. I doubt it, but does anyone have any experience in comparing it to the 950/770?

------------------
Benjamin King
benjaminking@yahoo.com

This months Home Theater mag. has a shoot out between the Anthem AVM-20 and an Anthem power amp whose model # I don't remember, Pioneer VSX-49TX and the Denon 5803. While the conclusion was the pre/pro - amp combo was best overall they had good things to say about both the Pioneer and Denon receivers. For what I know, $2500 is a killer price if it is from an authorized dealer.

I wonder if the new 7 channel amp that Outlaw will bring out will, when paired with the Outlaw 950, make the Outlaw separates lower priced and higher powered than the Pioneer 49 receiver.

mojoman,

I doubt that the internet deals are from authorized dealers, but it sure sounds tempting. There are a lot of features, and I have been reading about better performance than the Denon 5803. As far as power goes, it offers more than I currently need, and it has all the features that I would want on a pre-amp at this point anyway. I am really curious to see what the power rating will be on the upcoming Outlaw amp. Anyone care to speculate? 65, 100, 150?

------------------
Benjamin King
benjaminking@yahoo.com

I vote for 80-120 wpc. 150 is too close to the old 750. Mid-powered (like the Parasound HCA-855A @ 85x5) will generally blow away receivers rated at 100-125 wpc.

Now I'm curious.

Does anyone know off hand the wattage per channel, from 20 to 20,000Hz into 8 ohms (which is the way separate amplifiers are usually measured) of the Pioneer Elite 49TX and Denon 5803, with all channels running?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 10, 2002).]

Here are measurements taken by Sound & Vision for the Pioneer:

Output at Clipping : (1kHz @8/4 ohms)
1 Channel Driven - 154 watts
5 Channels Driven - 148 watts
6 Channels Driven - 144 watts

For the Denon 5800 (I think that it has the same amp as the 5803):
1 Channel Driven - 187 watts
5 Channels Driven - 138 watts
No data for 6 Channels.

Both of those receivers have really good stats.


------------------
Benjamin King
benjaminking@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by BenjaminKing (edited July 10, 2002).]

my local high-end shop prefers the integra 9.1 to the pioneer elite. i haven't had the opportunity to sit down and compare them (or compare either to the 950/770).

When I was reciever shopping over a year ago I had an opportunity to audition recievers from Denon, Pioneer, and Integra/Onkyo. I found that in each price category the Integra sounded fuller, and "warmer" while still retaining the clarity that I was looking for. I am aware that this may not help in a "side to side" compairison of the two models you are looking at, but I can tell you this: when the dust settled, I went home with an Integra 6.2, and am very happy with the decision.

-Jason

There's a comparisone between the top Integra, Denon, and Yamaha receivers in this month's Sound & Vision magazine (the one with the 950 review).

Yeah, another GREAT S&V "comparison"! Let's see, the prices of the 3 they compare are something like $1200, $2500, and $4200 (I don't have the magazine in front of me). Each one is practically double the price of the previous one. This is hardly a comparison. It is more like 3 "reviews" in one article. The buyer's price range is only going to include 1 of the 3 units.

Hi BenjaminKing,

A standard apples-to-apples way to compare the umph of a power amp to the umph of a receiver is to try and get the power out from 20 to 20kHz on all channels driven simultaneously. If you can get that for the Pioneer Elite 49TX and Denon 5803, then you can see how they really compare, in terms of power to a separate amp.

Will

Will,

I agree, but unfortunately, that was all that I could find. If anyone has any other data, I would be very interested to see it.

Does anyone have that data for the 770?

------------------
Benjamin King
benjaminking@yahoo.com

Power 'ratings' are very suspect, and easily manipulated. The frequency bandwidth, load, etc all can influence the numbers dramatically. Driving an amp with a continuous signal is not a real-world test. Far more important is current capacity and headroom. Even at very loud volumes, with speakers of typical efficiency, a very low wattage is needed. The loud peaks in a soundtrack are where the most power is needed, and those are almost ALWAYS very transient.

This is where headroom, and deep current capacity become more important than a continuous load reading. All else equal, an amp with say 60 watts continuous, but peak headroom to provide transient peaks to 120 watts will perform better in the real world than one with 80 watts continuous, but clips on peaks above 100 watts.

Also, don't forget how much of a power increase is required for only a minor increase in actual volume. 3 dB needs DOUBLE the power. Double the perceived volume is about 10dB, which needs roughly 10 TIMES the amp power to achieve.

In short, don't get too caught up in comparing this 140 wpc rcvr versus this one at 120 wpc. Other features will be far more important. Also, separates tend to have far more headroom capacity, so comparing a 60 wpc separate amp vs a 120 wpc rcvr isn't necessarily valid.

Try www.geocities.com/area51/hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm. This is a Stereo Review/Sound & Vision report summary. It has the D49TX at 148w at clipping for 5 channels, 144w for 6 channels. The Denon 5803 is rated 138w for 5 channels and 118.2w for 7 channels. These are all channels driven at clipping - 1khz 8 ohms .3%thd + noise. I think the new Outlaw amp will probably be rated 100-120watts so the package would compete straight with the premium receivers - Yamaha RX-Z1, etc. Pricing comparisons will be difficult as Yamaha rarely if ever is found discounted from any authorized supplier, Denon is available from 6ave highly discounted yet still authorized - 5803 is $3400, I have not checked the Pioneer Elite. The Outlaw package even with the 770 amp is a great price but may not be available for quite some time yet.
I am considering the Denon 5803 as Denon has proven that they will actually upgrade their premium receiver as they have with the 5700 and 5800. Many manufacturers promise to but have never actually offered anything more than software flash upgrades. The Onkyo 989 is another that has been upgraded several times with additional sound processing modes. This is a great feature. I would prefer to spend in the $2500 range like the Outlaw package but just can not wait forever. The new Yamaha RX-Z1 is supposed to be a nice unit but lacks all the extra bass management features of the Denon (although about $6-800 price diff).
Pete in Louisiana

Hi Pete in Louisiana,

The current Outlaw amps are rated at 20 to 20 kHz all channels driven, not at 1Khz. To compare apples to apples, just find what the Denon 5803 and the Pioneer 49TX produce from 20 to 20 kHz with all channels driven. That way, you can see how they really compare to a separate amp. Most separate amps, from Outlaw and others, have power ratings at 20 to 20 kHz. It's easier to build power rated ONLY at 1 Khz than to build the same power rated at from 20 to 20 kHz. Receiver manufacturers and amplifier manufacturers and everybody in audio knows this.

This is from the Outlaw 770 spec sheet:


Will


[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 13, 2002).]

Ideally? The only way to compare is to someday read (a) review(s) in S&V (for example) of all the components you'd want to compare. I have seen components rated at specs by the manufacturer that weren't met when actually measured...

Many reviewers will measure power from 20 to 20 kHz, all channels driven, for a multichannel amplifier. Unfortunately the same reviewers often won't measure power from 20 to 20 kHz, all channels driven, for a multichannel receiver.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 13, 2002).]

Will,
I agree completely. It sure would be nice to be able to compare receivers directly to amplifiers. Being in the market myself, I would love to be able to really compare the "true" power of the premium receivers to the many amplfiers out there. For some reason, the receiver manufacturers do not want to give the real measurements. I believe that NAD and HarmonKardon at least in the past would give true power ratings that always looked low on a spec sheet compared to their low cost competition but it did not seem to hurt their sales too much. The Sound&Vision summary is interesting in that at least you get to see if the manufacturer's claims are anywhere close to the tested power. Some of the receivers only put out 50-60% of rating even at clipping!
Pete in Louisiana

Don't count out the Yamaha stuff. I have been using a DSP AX1 (graymarket) piece with good results. They (Yamaha) claim it to be 150 wpc. It has over 50 DSP modes of which several are actually usable. This includes DD and DTS 6.1ES. The sound (to my old ears) is as good as some of the separates I have run in the past.

It also has a funky extra pair of amplified channels for front effects. These are at 45 wpc. I have those wired in as well, but I can't really say they add much.

If you want the DPL2 and neo6 etc you'll have to look at the successor model..the DSP AZ1.

Having said all this, I still think if you want to buy a receiver, buy a 1050 and spend the savings on high compliance speakers. You absolutely will get more for your money that way. Unless your Home Theater is bigger than 300 square feet, you are talking about very minor differences in sound quality.

Eddyboy

While the Yamaha AX1 is better than some of the separates in the past, I would expect some of the current crop of separates (like the 950 with it's matching lower-powered amp) to sound better (even to my old ears).

If you are going to get a receiver rather than separates, and don't want to spend more than the 1050 costs, I'd recommend considering a receiver in the 1050's price range, with DPL2 and/or NEO6. To me, DPL2 and NEO6 are very much superior to the (typically unlistenable) sound effects used before DPL2 and NEO6 came on the scene.

Will and I are in violent agreement.

My post in re the Yamaha was in regards to its utility vis a vis the big iron from Pioneer and Onkyo, Denon, etc. In many cases you are buying features and brand name as much as incremental sound quality.

Unless you're running huge, inefficient speakers, the 1050 will compare favorably with them in the sound department.


eddyboy

[This message has been edited by eddyboy (edited July 15, 2002).]

I'm on the waiting list for 950/770 but in the mean time considering receivers. At one point was thinking the Integra 9.1 would be the unit to make me happy (auditioned the speakers I bought on it) but lately have been thinking the Denon 5803 would be better although have not heard it. This tentative conclusion is based mostly on the review in Stereophile (its for the 5800 but I'm assuming the 5803 is as good or better sounding). In this review specific reference is made to comparisons between the Integra 9.
1 and the Denon 5800:
http://www.guidetohometheater.com/showarchives.cgi?12
Any comments or opinions?

Jeff

I think the Denon super-receiver is probably a step down, in terms of sound (but maybe not features) compared to similarly priced separates, from (for example) Rotel.

[This message has been edited by fmcorps (edited July 17, 2002).]

Well, I wrote up a very long and detailed comment, but I think my computer just crapped out on me. So I'll try this again.

When I auditioned recievers, I was basically trying to find a reciever that would "work for a while" but I knew that I would most likly be selling it off in a few years. That's why I opted for the (far) cheaper 6.2 over the 9.1. However I did listen to just about everything between $400-$5,000 that my dealer had (which, If i remember correctly were various Harmon Kardon, Onkyo, Denon, Pioneer, Integra, and B&K. Sony, NAD, MAcIntosh, Yamaha, Denon, and Onkyo were at another shop in town...and I didn't listen to closely to them because the service at that shop is HORRIBLE).

It's interesting that you brought up that review, becaus I found that the sonic properties were the opposite. The Denon sounded "airy" the midringe felt realy light when compaired to the Integra. Ant the wierd thing is that I prefer the sound of a detailed system...so much that I prefer the sound of the Monitor line of Paradigm over the Studio line, because I can hear more details. (and far prefer Paradigms in general to say B&W, or Boston for the same reasons).

To me the Integra sounded far more natural, while maintaining detail that I'm searching for. The B&K was very rich, but to me it sounded realy "muddy" or veiled when coupled with the paradigms (which are an inherently "bright" speaker...wait I"ve already established that...). Sory, Insomnia is starting to hit. :yawn: For me the Integra was exactly what I was looking for. It made my music (at least the decent recordings) sound realistic. And for the REALY well recorded CD's...Man, my girl frind still tells me how much I suck when I pop in my Miles Davis SACD's, and when I pop in the Beethoven 4'th on DVD-A she jokes about refusing to talk to me. (That is a good thing.) The funny thing is that our local shymphony just did B-4 about a month before I got the DVD-A's...Man, I had goos bumps on just how realistic it sounded in my living room.

So, anyway I still back the Integra's. Even though I decided on the cheaper one (to just save some sheckles...and replace the Technics SADX-940 reciever I purchased a year before that) I am extremly pleased. The Integra's are a great line, and I strongly reccomend them.

Good points fmcorps. It brings to mind what I’ve come to realize in my quest for better sound: how subjective the choice is and you can’t rely just on reviews and what you read in forums. You listened to many receivers while I have been relying more on reviews. Guess I don't have time to get out and audition as much, which is of course an essential part of making a decision. It all comes down to what sounds best to each person. I also have a lot of respect for the Integra line based on comments from the dealer I bought my speakers from, how those speakers sounded when I auditioned them with the DTR 9.1, and what I've read about Integra. The speakers I bought are Monitor Audio Silver 9i fronts, 12i center and Silver surrounds. I have read and been told by other dealers they are "bright" and somewhere in my reading seem to recall that the Integra is also bright, so in combination they theoretically may not be a good combination. Yet in the dealer’s showroom I thought it sounded great. I went back and forth between that place and a dealer next door listening to Paradigm Studio 60s (or were they 80’s?) played through an upper end Marantz receiver. I thought the Monitor Audio speakers had better midrange detail and upper end clarity on female vocals and dialog in movie soundtracks was clearer. At home they also sound very good to my ears played through my Rotel RSX-965 receiver which I’ve had for about five years (75 watts x 5, DD, DTS). But maybe not quite as good as through the Integra 9.1 they were auditioned on. So this has started my quest for something better for a receiver or processor/amp combination. For the past three weeks I’ve had a Rotel RMB-1095 amp (200 watts x 5) in my system using my receiver as a pre-amp/processor. I can’t tell much difference between that and just my receiver. I think I can hear some difference but I really have to listen. So I finally pulled the plug and I’m returning the amp today. The experience I’ve had points out how subjective much of our perceptions are and even how some of us (myself especially) can't hear what others can. I realize my receiver may be limiting what the big Rotel amp can do, and with the Rotel 1066 processor it would probably sound better to me (a lot better to those with better ears ). But I’m pretty sure for my ears the much less expensive Outlaw 950 / 770 combo would suit me very well. Or maybe the Integra 9.1 or Denon 5803 (if I decide not to wait for the Outlaw). If I could audition all three with my speakers either in my home or even in a dealers showroom I certainly would. Your comments about that review I posted also makes me think about subjectivity. Reviewers hear differently than we do and what sounds good to them may sound different to us. And that reviewer also said the Integra 9.1 and Denon 5800 were very close, so for me either one would be a great choice I’m sure. Also need to consider ease of use which was mentioned in that review (Integra better). The dealer my speakers came from is offering the Integra 9.1 for a great price however, and there is something to be said to having a good relationship with a dealer. I like this place. They even delivered the speakers to my house, which is a 50 mile one way trip. So I’m not sure what I’ll end up with at this point. I understand the advantage of separates, so maybe the Outlaw. I was listening to my receiver last night; sounds good so I could live with it while I wait.

I had a similar experience. I compared a receiver by itself, versus using the same receiver as a pre/pro, mated to a powerful external amp. I heard some improvement I'll admit, but it wasn't alot. I kept the amp. Much later when finally, I replaced the receiver with a REAL pre/pro, which in my case was an Outlaw 950, my system sounded SIGNIFICANTLY clearly much better. Going from my receiver (in my case it was a Sony) mated to a 200Wx5 amp, to a real pre/pro mated to the same amp, was THE big step.

If I had more inefficient speakers, mating a powerful external amp to the receiver would make more difference. But my speakers don't require lots of power. They're efficient.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 17, 2002).]

Thanks for the feedback. Got similar advice at hometheaterforum:

"The RMB-1095 is a very capable amp. However, mated with a receiver for its prepro stage will of course hamper its performance. I've not heard the Rotel 1066 personally, but many who have love it. I have however listened to Rotel's previous prepro offerings(976 and 985) and didn't quite like them. I ended up with an RMB-1095 and a TagMcLaren AV32R. I've not heard the 5803 either so I can't give you any direct comparisons, but if its worth anything, I've heard the 3801, and even a cheap Parasound AVC-1800 prepro beats it quite significantly. Of course the 5803 should be a huge step up from the 3801."

"What Sihan says is very correct. In a given system, the bigger difference in sound will come from changing the processor rather than the amp, and at the moment, your receiver is holding back your amp. To give you an example, for a short period of time I had an Adcom GTP-830, itself a nice processor, mated to a Classe CAV-150 amp. The performance was nothing short of mediocre, and after I hooked up a Sunfire processor to it, the change in soundstage, dynamics, and imaging was overwhelming. To further answer your dilemma, I believe that you will get better performance from your amplifier once you have the new processor, but you will also get similar performance from a high end receiver such as the Denon."

So no final decisions have been made yet. Reading a recent thread here:

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000411.html

makes me unsure of the Outlaw 950. But I also know there are many satisfied owners.

When I take the Rotel amp back after work today I will be explaining again to the dealer why. During the first week I called him and explained that I wasn't hearing much difference. He offered to extend the money back period until he had a 1066 processor for me to try. That was a great offer so I said ok but I was also having trouble with the amp shutting down the Panamax everything runs through. Panamax said they were aware of the problem with high current amps, they had just devised a fix and I sent it back for the update. Then a few days later the amp started causing a audible hum through all the speakers after running about an hour. Out of frustration I simply decided to return the amp. But at the dealer tonight I'll explain the hum and see if I can take a different amp home. There is a lot of interest in the 1066 processor on this forum and others so I should probably at least hear it before taking if off the list of possibilities.

I had a similar experience. I sold off my
Sunfire Theater Grand 1 expecting imminent
arrival of the 950. After this protracted
wait, I mated my Cinema Grand Signature Sunfire (405 wpc) with the DSP AX1 (note above). I should interject that selling the Sunfire was really a dumb idea.

The Yamaha is just fine and does all I ask of it. However there was an intangible with the Sunfire PrePro piece that put you into the movie. This is just not there in the high ticket Yamaha. As an experiment based on
this thread I disconnected the big amp and played the Yamaha straight up. NO DIFFERENCES noted. The sound, presence, timbre, detail, definition, and all those other audiophile words were identical. Even the bass was the same which was a surprise.

I guess I expected more impact and coloration from the power amp. I guess I
am only running at about 10 to 20 wpc in either event, so headroom is plenty in either case.

Having said all that, I suppose my point is that after a certain point, incremental improvements are extremely small and ungodly expensive. Trust your ears and your gut and try to ignore the marketing hype.

eddyboy

I have to agree with you, V D. It wouldn't hurt to try the Rotel 1066. I hope it will be in stock soon at your dealer.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 18, 2002).]

Amen. I'll try to remember that.

Originally posted by V Dub:
Good points fmcorps.

Hey, thanks...it's definatly appriciated.

You listened to many receivers while I have been relying more on reviews. Guess I don't have time to get out and audition as much, which is of course an essential part of making a decision.

Yep,at that point in my life I couldn't think of anything better to do with my days off, and it sure beat loitering in the mall corner or sitting around in my underware watching Judge Judy. Now I can sit in my underware and watch the Matrix in glorious surround sound. Bwahahaha

It all comes down to what sounds best to each person. I also have a lot of respect for the Integra line based on comments from the dealer I bought my speakers from, how those speakers sounded when I auditioned them with the DTR 9.1, and what I've read about Integra. The speakers I bought are Monitor Audio Silver 9i fronts, 12i center and Silver surrounds. I have read and been told by other dealers they are "bright" and somewhere in my reading seem to recall that the Integra is also bright, so in combination they theoretically may not be a good combination.

See, to my ears the Denons were bright when compaired to the Integras. Like I said, what I heard was alomst the opposite of that review. I was able to audition them in the same room, and use (what I hope) was a professional grade switcher when swapping between the two. So I think I had a pretty gdecent "audio memory" when compairing the two.

I went back and forth between that place and a dealer next door listening to Paradigm Studio 60s (or were they 80’s?) played through an upper end Marantz receiver. I thought the Monitor Audio speakers had better midrange detail and upper end clarity on female vocals and dialog in movie soundtracks was clearer. At home they also sound very good to my ears played through my Rotel RSX-965 receiver which I’ve had for about five years (75 watts x 5, DD, DTS). But maybe not quite as good as through the Integra 9.1 they were auditioned on. So this has started my quest for something better for a receiver or processor/amp combination.

Yep, sucks when you put a seperate system in the equation. I went to "the other guys" in town :dread:. There was a gentleman there who WAS ACTUALLY A SALESMAN and talked to me for more then five minutes. (Everyone else in that store seems to ignore you unless you are dinking with the car audio) I had already purchased my 6.2, but I still like stopping into audio shops every once and a while. That's where I heard a NAD Silver series (I think it was the S170/250 combo) WOAH. All of the sudden I felt realy small. Needless to say I'm waiting for the Otlaws to fix the 950 issue and I'll be more then happy to wait and fork my cash over to give it a listen.

If I could audition all three with my speakers either in my home or even in a dealers showroom I certainly would. Your comments about that review I posted also makes me think about subjectivity. Reviewers hear differently than we do and what sounds good to them may sound different to us.

Well, I'm hoping that I can swing the following in a few months:

My "good" dealer is going to start carying Anthem, as well as B&K. What I'm hoping to do is get an OUtlaw 950/770 in my home and realy have a showdown with the AV2, B&K Ref 30, and the outlaw. All three in my home in the same time :Cackling maniacally: It's good to be king....

The dealer my speakers came from is offering the Integra 9.1 for a great price however, and there is something to be said to having a good relationship with a dealer. I like this place. They even delivered the speakers to my house, which is a 50 mile one way trip.

Yea, It's great to find a dealer that actualy treats you like you are paying for their kids braces. Like I said the first time I walked into the "good" shop, the salesman there spent close to 2 1/2 hours. This was a while back but I basicaly did the "Hey, I know my system sucks, but I dont have a lot of cash to blow now. I'm planning on building up my system piece by piece untill I'm happy." That day it was listening to speakers. I was looking for a center. I then proceded to the OTHER shop. I literaly spent under fiveteen minutes there. Of that it took about ten minutes before anyone even asked if I needed any help. The guy was so disinterested in my business (I can rember the conversation perfectly)

Myself
"Well, I want to upgrade my equipment. I've heard great things about the PSB 5i's"

Dealer:
"Yes, the are good speakers. I had a piar a while back, now I have a pair of the Silvers"

Me
"The Stratus Silvers?"

Dealer
"(Completly disinterested by now) Yes, the are a very good speaker."

ME
"Er, ok. What about the 6i's"

Dealer
"(Becoming irratated)Yes, those are very good speakers too. (Doesn't bother to switch them) Is there anything else you want?"

Me
"(finaly getting the hint) Uh, no, that's OK."

I kid you not, that is almost a word for word discussion I had the first time I was there.

In and out in under twenty minutes with less then 5 minutes of listening time. I could have gotten a burger and a nice thick shake :mmm, shake: with the time I wasted there. The funny thing is I still want to give them a chance. But every time I walk in there it's the same friggin guy who works there, and he just seems to busy to answer any questions. Just once there was a younger gentleman there who actualy TOOK TIME TO MAKE A SALE, and that's when I heard the NAD Silver 170, and was blown away with seperates.

Now the "good dealer", heck I stop in there once every two weeks to a month just to talk shop. Heck, he helped me move my new Paradigm Monitor 11's home using his own personal vehicle to save me an extra trip in my car, and so I wouldn't get charged a delivery fee to use the company vehicle. Not to mention that I always seem to get a great deal, with no hastle. Guess where my money keeps going to.

Jason

Originally posted by V Dub:
Thanks for the feedback. Got similar advice at hometheaterforum:

So no final decisions have been made yet. Reading a recent thread here:
makes me unsure of the Outlaw 950. But I also know there are many satisfied owners.


I'm willing to wait until they've shipped units for about six months before I go for that "shootout". I'm willing to wait (not to mention that I need to save up $4k in order to cover my expenses if I decide to go with the avm3) I figure if I'm going to do it, I may as well do it right. I've already got one of my students lined up to take it off my hands when the time comes. (teaching at the college does have some benifits).

Jason