I currently use a 1050 but I'm looking into pre/pro units less than $2000, and while the 950 is in the running I'm far from sold. The Rotel 1066 looks very nice. Any other worthy contenders?

Charlie

In my opinion, there is a distinct lack of competition in the $1000 - $2500 range for pre/pros with DD EX/DTS-ES/DPL II.

There's only the Outlaw and Rotel as far as I know.

I keep waiting for any of the major Japanese manufacturers to put something out... (Onkyo, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer, etc.)

I also looked at the Rotel. But for me, the Outlaw is a better deal. Fixed analog 80 Hz crossover on the analog 5.1 inputs (Rotel has no crossover option on the 5.1 input), and theoretically better DACs (Outlaw has 24/192's, Rotel has 24/96's.) One more thing I don't personally like about the Rotel, is that you *have* to hook it up to your display. It requires OSD to program it. Can't do it just from the display on the unit.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited June 09, 2002).]

It's been a while since I set it up, but I think it's still pretty accurate -- check out this pre/pro chart I cooked up a while back. Kevin's pretty much hit it that there's not much out there in the under-$2000 range except the Model 950 and Rotel's 1066. Adcom's got a pre/pro in that price range, but it's been out for a while and is lacking some of the features of newer units. The $2000-$3000 range gets you into the territory of the Ref 30, AVM20, and the like -- and in that range, the AVM20 is probably the most popular.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I saw an AVM-20 go for $2300-$2400 on eBay IIRC. The $2000 isn't a hard limit if the reason to go above were compelling enough.

So - is the AVM-20 a good buy at $2500?

Charlie

From what I've heard, it's a very nice pre/pro. There's supposed to be an upgrade to Pro Logic II due out some time this year, but it will cost some (couple hundred? I'm not sure if the upgrade price has been established). If your budget allows, it would definitely need to be on your list to audition.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I spoke with an Anthem rep last week. They have received the new chips and the upgrade (THX Ultra2, DPL II) should be available in about 4 weeks for $300 (retail).

Mike

I just went through the user manuals for the Rotel 1066, Outlaw 950 and Anthem AVM-20 and I'm sorry to say the Outlaw (assuming the PDF is accurate) isn't faring well.

It seems to follow Outlaw tradition set by the 1050 of providing the needed functionality at a great price point with a price paid in 'polish' for lack of better term. There are things in the 950 menus that hint at great ideas that were later half thrown out and some simple things that the competitors include that are simply not there.

For instance, on page 24 this note:



OK - so why have them in this menu? This kind of thing hints at either poor planning or (more likely) a more ambitious feature set that was trimmed at the last minute. This happens, but the trimming should be more complete and should include killing the menu items along with the feature.

Things that would be easy to do and are absent include:

- User labels for inputs.
- Per mode trim adjustments.
- Volitle trim adjustments that re-zero with input change or power off.
- Distinct delay adjustments, at least to the extent of settings for surrounds vs. rears.

I'm wondering how much of this is fixable via firmware and how much is set in stone.

Charlie

Sorry Charlie but it I don't think it should be termed "fixable" because it ain't broke. If you feel the tweakable options and a machine that runs around 100 degrees and lacks detail is worth 400 dollars more than that is up to you. Just don't hang around waiting for Outlaw to "fix the problems".

OK - I can see you're emotionally attached here, but can you rationally explain why a global adjustment being presented on a per input menu is not broken?

How adding labels would compromise the sonic quality?

etc.?


Charlie


[This message has been edited by charlie (edited June 10, 2002).]

In a way, Jed's right. I think as far as the features we're talking about here, the 950 is "done." You will certainly not be alone if you decide that the design is too limiting for your needs and move on to a 1066 or an AVM20. Others have already done the same, and will continue to do so. It's largely an issue of personal need. The 950 is similar to the 1050 in concept -- just the essentials, with a nice low price. Like you, charlie, I saw the input menu layout (back during the beta test, actualy) and wondered about input-specific settings. I don't know if the layout is the result of a reduction in feature set or simply a layout that made full use of the number of lines available -- if it's the latter (which is what I've suspected is the case), it adds some convenience but does lead to the confusion that you noted. As for the trim options, there was so much debate about the 950's speaker trim options at the end of the beta period and early in the shipping process that I suspect Outlaw would have made changes if they felt it was reasonable/feasible to do so. (And from some of the info available on why the speaker distance settings are the way they are, I suspect things like additional trim control are likely not an option because of hardware issues.) Lastly, I'd love user-defined labels for inputs too, but I don't think we'll see them on the 950.

Anyway, keep us informed on your pre/pro search -- it's a hot topic these days, and I'd be very interested to know which way you end up going.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I like the 1050 and the 950 looks nice, but there are so many tiny things broken I'm not sure I can live with it. At some point the tiny flaws mar the overall finish, so to speak. I saw someone else refer to it as death by 1000 paper cuts.

OTOH it is the low cost option, so it stays in the running on that basis, as long as I find no 'deal breaker' problems.

I'm not here to abuse the faithful - just a guy looking for the right equipment.


Charlie


BTW - Convenience is no excuse for obscurity. No matter why it's there, it's very 'Outlaw-esque' and still broken. Looks exactly like something designed by an engineer ('it's perfectly clear to me - everyone will see it') rather than a product manager/marketing person. I can say that since I are one (software engineer).

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited June 10, 2002).]

Actually Charlie, I don't understand the confusion. Maybe you could explain why having a global adjustment makes the 950 broken? In regards to the Rotel, it is broken because it only has five digital inputs. Do you happen to have any information when this problem will be fixed? I understand if it was a poor choice of wording and like Gonk said, you won't be alone in feeling that these omissions you refer to are worth the extra money spent. Good luck with your decision, I am sure you will be very happy either way.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited June 10, 2002).]

I hate to sound like a stuck record (or whatever the digital equiv is) but here we go one last time:

Putting a global adjustment in a per input menu is counter-intuitive. Counter-intuitiveness in a GUI is a bad thing. Thus the menu is 'broken' in that it has unaddressed defects. Believe me, I understand how unaddressed defects can happen, but it doesn't make it less broken.

Is it a fatal, horrible flaw? Nope. could it have been fixed easily? Probably. So the fact it was passed into production means (1) QA was rushed (2) engineers got to veto the bug report (3) ???

This kind of thing is what I mean by 'lack of polish' and seems endemic to Outlaw products. They are solid. They deliver the goods. They cost less. They are also a bit rough about the edges.


Charlie

adcom has 3 models 750/760/830

parasound has avc2500u

and marantz has av-9000

i think nad may have one in the sub 2k range

It sounds like Charlie considers it broken not because it *IS* a global setting (that is obviously a feature set choice) but because it is presented in the menus as a per-input setting when in fact it is not.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Exactly. Thank you Matt.

FWIW they could completely eliminate the settings in question (bass and treble) and I'd never notice, so it's not that they're global at all, and it's not that the feature is done badly, it's simply a bad UI that I find very exemplary of Outlaw products in general. Solid. Low dollar. Good performance. A bit rough. Actually fits their branding - maybe it's intentional.

As for the other options noted - I've looked over the Adcom 830 and it looks a bit light on connectivity but if the price were low enough and it is well regarded I might consider it. Anyone care to weigh in on Adcom in general and the 830 in particular?


Charlie

I don't think there is much debate here, just choices. If you are willing to live will all the surround modes, clean sound, and minimum frills, you can save a lot and buy the 950. If you want (arguably) better looks, more niceties (on the fly trim controls, bering able to turn off the OSD, discrete remote codes available), some upgradeability, and name recongition, you can spend $400-$500 more and buy the Rotel. Will it sound better? Maybe, maybe not. The decision should be more for the above reasons.

The Anthem sounds like a great piece, including higher-end features like balanced outputs. But it is significantly more money. For the price of the Anthem you could get a 950 and a 1066.

I can't decide which way to go myself. For the same price I would choose the Rotel in a heartbeat. But to maximize my system's sound, the extra money would be better spent elsewhere. Also my nearest Rotel dealer is far away, so convenience definitely favors Outlaw.

The Anthem is nice, but it seems to do way more than I need. The Outlaw is a bit quirky and omits at least one feature I would like to have. In the defense of hte 950 it has many nifty things (triple xover, 80 analog on 5.1 inputs) but those are features I'll never use.

I'm not sure I could hear a difference between the 950 and the 1066, and I'm just cynical by nature when sighted listening produces this sort of result. If a person can ID the 950 vs the 1066 in a proper blind test I'd be very interested in seeing the experiment duplicated.

So the Rotel looks better and better due to just plain being a good fit to my requirements.

But I'm not going to blow this sort of $$$ without a lot of research.


Charlie

Charlie, I think I understand what you mean now. In all honesty I would have gone with the 1066 had it not been for the simple fact that I like a very detailed sound when it comes to HT. For music that is different but I figured I could add a warm cd player and get closer to what I want. Other than that little thing I would have went the Rotel route based on options, and in my opinion, looks. Also I am assuming I could get it for 1350 or less. If you prefer a warm sound for HT I think you would be making a mistake not to seriously consider the Rotel. If you are like me and enjoy warm music, take the extra money saved and get a modified Sony SACD player and then you will have the best of both worlds. I really think this "better value" thing is subjective to what each person believes they need.

In my honest opinion, since I have not compared the two, I believe the warm/bright issue is being taken too far. I think ultimately very few of us could pick one from the other in a blind test. I really believe its paying extra for the extra features, and that's the decision.

RW- None of those pre/pros you listed include DD EX, DTS-ES, or DPL II.

Besides, from that list, your forgot the Sony TA-E9000ES, the Rotel RSP-985, and the Acurus ACT-3...

Another to consider is the Atlantic Technology version of the 950. I recently received an email from them on the differences between the two. They are:

Premium hand selected and calibrated components in the key processing
paths. This includes the main pre-amp, DSP, and Video boards; All caps,
DACs and Output ICs.

Higher grade Op-Amps for improved Signal to Noise Ratio in Direct, Digital,
and in the Analog-DSP inputs.

Higher video bandwidth at (55 MHz).

Higher grade premium power supply for more current stability.

Lower output impedance for increased tolerance with a wider variety of
audiophile cables.

Higher S/N ratio, greater stereo separation and lower stereo distortion in
the FM Tuner section

Lastly, the Atlantic Technology P-2000 features more ergonomically designed
buttons, and is available in a brushed aluminum titanium or black finish at
no additional charge.

Unfortunately, like the 950, you can't turn of the bass management output to the subwoofer for the 5.1 analog inputs, it's always on no matter what position the bass management switch is in.

IF your budget is $2000, and you don't mind buying a product used. Get a Ref30 used off of Audiogon or Ebay. They can usually be had for about 1900 bucks... They are usually the black faceplate kind.

Jeff

[QUOTE]Originally posted by surroundophile:
[B]Another to consider is the Atlantic Technology version of the 950. I recently received an email from them on the differences between the two.

surroundophile,
did they include a projected price?

DMC

It looks like the Reference 30 lacks DPL 2.

Not huge, but a lot of my current listening is to older stuff that might benefit from DPL 2, plus the vast majority of DirecTv stuff is DD 2.0, so I guess (??) DPL would apply there too?


Charlie

Atlantic Tech: (... got to ask... )

Ship date?

After looking at the Anthem manual I found some major features that I would/could use:

- The delay settings are discrete for each speaker.
- There are 'group delay' settings for syncing dialog when video processing is used.
- The level adjustments to trim the channels are in 0.5 db steps, nice.

But I'm not sure it's worth $1000 extra.

So far the Rotel seems to have the most bang for the buck, at least for my specific application.

Charlie

I thought Atlantic Technology only made speakers???... When will they have their new pre-amp listed on their website? Also, will they be offering any other Outlaw OEM products, like the 770 amp?

Atlantic Tech will have an amp as well as a pre/pro. The pre/pro is (as stated above) based on the Model 950, but they are working through Eastech (the overseas manufacturer) to get it. The amp (which is a 6x125W amp) is not related to the Outlaw amps as far as I know. Check out this "CES 2002" link from their site (it's a PDF file).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Thanks! I had a look at the PDF. I have to say though, short of having solid gold buttons, I'm not sure how they can justify a price tag that almost doubles the Outlaw equivalent. Some of their "differences" from the Outlaw model I would find incidental. For example, it was my impression that you only needed a 45 MHz bandwith for component video switching. And a nicer power supply is great, but would probably be more beneficial for amplifiers, which really suck up current. And lower output impedance??? For that increase in cost, I would've expected to see more compelling features, such as THX certification, RDS capability, zone 2 video, or even a better remote. What do you think, is it worth the extra $800?

dmeister, personally I would buy the Anthem if I was going to make that price jump. I think A/T is aiming at the less internet savvy market. I would imagine most people who know about the Outlaw probably won't be buying any of the clones for those prices. However, if the street price is within two hundred dollars of the 950 then I bet you will see a few go that route for the small added features but mostly for the more attractive face plate.

Kevin Brown: Ship date?


They said end of June/begining of July.

Let's see if they follow the Outlaw timing tradition or not. If not, and if they have thenm available in volume next month, I can easily see quite a few people going to AT just to get a "950" NOW. The Outlaws simply HAVE to get their act together and start shipping again SOON.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I thought Outlaw had a deal where A/T or the other clones could not be sold until Outlaw had finished filling the pre orders? Anyone else remember hearing this? Hopefully I am wrong.

Jed -- I think you are correct, clones cannot ship until Outlaw had filled all pre-orders and begun shipping orders as they come in.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I would be willing to lay a heavy wager on the following:

Pretend I am a clone maker. Would I *ever* sign up to a deal where there is no date such that I could beginning selling my product irregardless of what's going on with some other company?

I bet there is a clause in there with a drop-dead date, no matter if Outlaw has filled all their orders or not.

End of June, beg of July: that's fast approachin' !

The AT list is like $2000? I bet it drops to $1500-1600 street soon after.

Did you hear about the Audio Refinement Pre 2 ? It's a brand from YBA.
Seems to be more on the audiophile side, less inputs than 950 or 1066 but maybe better sounding for about 1400 $.
Didn't have the chance to test one though.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/...&threadid=76490
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/...ight=refinement