That's right, crew. Sound & Vision reviewed the 950 in the July/August issue. From what I understand, the review is pretty positive.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Yep...it's true. (they must have gotten mine by accident).
It's pretty positive and very subjective. The reviewer liked the buttons and knobs and never alluded to any "harshness" or "brightness". It didn't say what speakers or amp he was using.
Pretty much said what has already been said.....great pre/pro with alot of features for the money.

Interestingly, the review notes in the measurements the 950's subpar noise levels. By about 4db they figure. I found it interesting that the review (of a $300 Panasonic receiver) following the 950 had better noise measurements than the 950. I'm sure the Outlaws will have a spin for this one as well!

-CB

subpar noise levels = hiss, HISS or hIsS?



Hopefully my issue is at home when I get there...

I thought Outlaw was holding out on review units until everyone on the list had theirs?? For that review to be in print, they must have gotten one of the very first units.

So does this confirm the hiss problem? It's not just people's hearing. It sounds like a subpar noise floor on the 950 has been comfirmed by actual test equipment.

Maybe this is why people are saying outlaw has stopped shipping. Maybe their trying to fix the problem.

Sound and vision sucks.

It's little more than a display for ads that they call 'reviews'.

They compare nothing directly to other products, and they dislike nothing.

Half of the products they review now-a-days are very low-fi. HTiB systems. Lots of receivers. Crappy in-wall speaker shoot outs, tiny low end sub shootouts.
Notice even in the shootouts they never declare a winner when the specs and prices usually show a clear one.
They almost never reivew anything that's high end as if nothing's better than a powerful receiver with the DSP 'works'.

Their speaker reviews are the most pathetic of all.

They'll say a speaker system makes you feel like you're in the middle of the battle while watching Braveheart. Wow. That's very imformative. I know a lot more about that specific speaker now.

Then you look at the tiny freq. response inset section, and it shows the speakers to be wildly un-flat. Horrible response by anyone's defenition, yet they don't mention they heard that in the review.
They'll note minor opinion sounding preference sounding flaws at most.

I got a free 3 year subsc. 2 years ago, and have yet to read any review that wasn't a total joke.

Check out their new product section. It's nothing more than word for word copies of companies press releases, w/ S&V doing nothing what-so-ever to verify the claims made. The AT 950 clone was featured in there last year.
I've seen lots of products there that never ended up even coming to market. Like the RCA and Samsung LCoS RPTVs.

Sorry to sound so raving, but that's how worthless I feel a S&V review of the 950 is, and thought people should know where these reviews come from -ad money, and very little integrity to be even slightly honest in a review of any product.

Seems like everyone is pretty excited about this review!!!

Sound and Vision is the remnants of Stereo Review and Video, if I recall correctly. Stereo Review has been terrible since about the mid-eighties. You might as well use Consumer Reports, which is totally useless for any enthusiast item.

Ha. Consumer reports is a great magazine to consult, if you plan on repeatedly stepping on, baking, soaking, dropping, freezing, etc. whatever product you're considering buying. They'll tell you which one breaks first.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

GO ahead and slam Sound&Vision if you want because they do take advertising money which most publications do and it would only seem natural to give a favorable review to companies with advertising clout (money)

But when you criticize Consumer Reports you are wrong, this is a publication that has been around probably longer than most of you (professional critics) have been alive, this is one of the best unbiased sources of information for products you may or may not be interested in, it is a tool that can be used for what it is, and rest assured this publication does not accept any advertisers or business money.

You don't have to agree with everything they print, but like asking questions on a forum, it is another way of obtaining information. And you can be sure it is not biased, they only tell the facts after extensive testing.

LQQK

To Azryan:
You appear to be an expert on everything! And everything 'sucks' unless it matches your opinion. You rant about biases yet you are the most biased of all. I've read numerous e-mails that you've sent in. Can't seem to avoid them. (the piece on video projectors was particularly tedious). I actually try to avoid threads with your 'messages' because I know what to expect. "The Gospel According to Azryan". Get a clue, get a life, possibly consider providing some information that someone can use, and stop using this forum as your own personal outlet.
Everyone else, sorry for the rant.
Mix (an actual industry professional)

I've found Consumer Reports to be one of the subtlely biased magazines I've every read!

I have never taken reviews of any kind all that seriously, especially magazine reviews. I just take them for what they are and get whatever I can from them then see for myself. It's kind of like different news channels being biased on political issues. I still watch all of them, digest the info and form my own opinions on each issue. I don't subscribe to any HT or audio magazines but I always pick up a few when I'm in the book store. Of the many I have read through the years, it's amazing how there are never any REALLY NEGATIVE reviews. It's always the same formula, 5 or so pluses for the product with one minus, the minus usually being something trivial like a feature missing on the remote. Anyhow, I'm looking forward to reading Sound and Vision's review either way.

As far as the hiss issue goes, I'll judge for myself. If I have to press my head against a speaker to hear it then I won't worry about it. If I hear it during the silent part of a movie or cd at normal listening levels, I'll just return it.

Rob

Damn, consumer reports is great for picking toasters, microwave ovens, and mini-vans. But for anything that is specialized, they suck. If they did a review of HT systems, I guarantee that a RCA HTIB would absolutely kill a Krell system with megabuck speakers, etc. They would rank a Caravan over a Ferrari.
Sound and Vision is very similar. Home Theater Magazine is pretty close. They used to be great, but both seem afraid to anger any advertisers too much.
Stereophile, Absolute Ear, Sensible Sound, etc, will give much truer reviews of audiophile gear.

I find Sound & Vision does some of the best reporting on convergence issues (ex: Home Theater PC, hard drive music boxes, etc.). The best info for hard core gearheads is on the web, but of all the print magazines, they're the only ones who consistently tackle these topics in a way average enthusiasts can use it.

-avi

I have a subscription for S&V but have not yet received my latest copy. Is this review available anywhere online?

Also, I'd guess that the review sample that S&V received is from the same beta unit batch(time period) as the final unit that us beta testers received, before ANY units started to actually ship to consumers. Lead time for a magazine to receive, review, write and publish a review can take up to 4 months.

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Take Care,
merc

MixFixJ,

Don't read my posts then. Sounds like you're my biggest fan reading everything I write.

I've never even seen you here before. So the only post I've read from YOU is a rant that makes you sound like you know everything.
Just what you accuse me of. How moronic. I mean ironic.

Here's what you can do if you're so upset by the things I say (see, I'm even helping fight my evil ways..)
You can use that pea brain that decides to insult me, and instead tell me how I'm wrong with well thought out point that make me look foolish and stupid.

I'd imagine if you had ANYTHING to say that would contradict what I've written in the past you'd say it 'cuz clearly you'd love to attack me anyway you can.

Feel free. I can't stop, and would try. Be careful though, 'cuz if you're wrong, I'll nail you back.

I know I can be very confrontational at times, but when I think someone isn't making a reasonable point, innaccurate point, a point I disagree with, I'll probably point it out.
This BIG NEWS about Sound and Vision is total dumb IMO and stated details why. Let me add everything Outlaw's released has been reviewd by S&V. It was no suprise that the 950 was, and nothing meaningful gained from hearing they like it.

I'm challenging people to think beyond posting ads for useless print reviews.

Maybe you'd prefer to see only people who love and support eachother as a big beautiful community of audiophiles... but often points are brought up and then debated.
In my case 'strongly debated' when I feel the way as I do about how useless Sound and Vision is.

One point about how anything I said was wrong. One. Anything... I dare you to use that brain of yours next time you post.
You need a challenge to keep it working it seems.

I have to agree with Azryan on S&V. They never really say anything bad. They never really pick a winner even when they review three items. The only reason I like them at all is because they do review DVDs and music and will say if these suck or not.

Concerning CR -- this magazine lost me when it rated the Bosch dishwashers worst in cleaning. Bosch dishwashers rock! They also have testing methods that are basically unpublished. When I was looking for a refrigerator, they uses a 100 point list in their tests, but they didn't tell you what the 100 point list was or how it was scored. I could not, therefore, gauge whether they cared the same as I did or not about particular tests. They can also be very biased. For instance, when testing electric ovens (ranges + cooktops), they hated the flattop because they were expensive to replace if you broke the flattop and they had less heating power. I personally would not buy anything but a flattop because of its ease of cleaning. And, they aren't that bad, if you search brands, when heating. Therfore, CR's ratings were useless for me for refrigerators (I did my own tests and research -- CR actually rated this model high), dishwashers (I bought a Bosch, rated the worst in cleaning), and ovens (I bought a flattop convection oven, which CR rated low because of the flattop).

Hello All,
Az: You've lived up to expectation! Your response was both puerile and tedious. (you seem to bring out the word 'tedious' in me). But I'm truly not here to insult. I enjoy this forum and the opportunity it affords us to exchange hopefully meaningful information. As far as posts, you probably haven't seen many of mine because, as I said before, I really do avoid threads that contain your input. I'll give you this, you are knowledgeable about a few things. Good for you. It may get you a cup of coffee somewhere, sometime. I'm not here to give you my resume. I partially did it in another thread, and looking back, it sounded kind of pompous. I don't have anything against you personally. I don't even know you. I just find your style immature and irritating.
You are correct in that it is my choice to read your messages, or not. From now on I guess I'll choose 'not'.
As far as S&V goes, yes, it is an advertiser-owned rag. One of the reasons I come here is for more objective viewpoints and the opportunity to hear what people think. Az, if you're curious about my pedigree go to: c-e-i.com. I'm leaning against the plan table.
Everybody else!
I'm sorry for taking-up your time and will endeavor to only stick to the subject-at-hand from now on!
'Till later,
Mix

P.S. Az: 'Spell Check'

AzRyan & MixFixJ,

If you want to having a pissing contest, please take it outside.

I'm hear to learn about Outlaws products & about other customers. I'm not here to watch two egos come to virtual blows. If I want that, I'll just wander on over to another well known HT site.

I shall now return to Lurker Mode. Thank you,

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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

Thank you, psklenar, I couldn't have said it better.

Ditto psklenar.

You are all correct. I apologize. Won't happen again.
Mix

MixFixJ,

Thank you. I (and apparently others) appreciate it.

Now ... where the heck is my copy of this darn magazine!?!? Argh! I know it's a free subscription, but still ... does it have to get to me so darn late? {sigh}


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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

Pat, I haven't gotten my issue of S&V yet either but this morning a friend faxed me a copy of the review. No where in the review does the reviewer say anything about noise. No where does he say anything negative at all about how the 950 sounds.

In fact, he notes:

He ends the review by saying:

So, this noise/hiss issue has me stumped? Apparently, if the 950 that S&V reviewed had the noise/hiss problem it wasn't audible to the reviewer???

The mystery continues...

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Take Care,
merc

The hiss problem seems to be heavily dependent on configuration & environment -- nearby radio transmitters, unshielded PCs, ground loops, whatever. some people hear an unacceptable amount of hiss, some people don't seem to hear any. It's quite possible that the S&V reviewer tested his unit in a very clean environment and heard no hiss. I can hear hiss if I press my ear against my speaker cover fabric; from more than an inch away I hear nothing. To me this is not unacceptable.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Merc- I haven't seen the article yet (dang post office! ), but my impression is that the comment about the high noise level is in the measurements box that typically accompanies the text of the review.

At my request, a friend sent me a copy of that portion of the review. Here's the actual quote:


Hmmm ... doesn't sound like he heard any hiss or had any problem with it. Is 4dB higher than a "theoretical ideal" really that bad? What products attain the "theoretical ideal"?

My friend included a couple of other quotes he thought I might like:


I'm looking forward to receiving my copy of the magazine so I can see the whole review. But based on what my friend typed in and sent me, it sounds like S&V liked the 950 and didn't suffer from the hiss that's bedeviling some of our fellow 950 owners.


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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

Matthew - You said "I can hear hiss if I press my ear against my speaker cover fabric; from more than an inch away I hear nothing. To me this is not unacceptable."

Question - At what volumn level are you at here? On mine, up to about -15 to -12, on all analog sources, I'm same "ear to grill".
At -11 to -05 its about 6 inches +. At 00 to +10, its more. At +10, I hear hiss from 10+ feet. This is with any analog source selected, but with no movie/music playing.

Am I consistant with you + others. Or are you "ear to grill" or no more than an inch away even with volumn at 00 to +10.

On digital inputs, things even at +10 seem about normal. Also, at no time do I ever hear hiss during soft passages of a movie or music. This seems like an important point in discussing this issue vs the 1066 initial hiss, as my understanding is that users heard it during playback, which as Al Gore would say "Thats just wrong"!

2 random "in the lab" comparisons:

Jan 2002, Yamaha RX-V1200: "Noise, distortion, and dynamic range performance were all excellent."

March 2001, Yamaha RX-V1000: "Stereo digital-input noise performance (not listed) was superb, with 16-bit noise levels a fraction of a decibel from theoretical perfection, and a 20-bit excess noise result superior to that of many DVD and CD players."

But it would be interesting to compare actual numbers as soon at the US Post Office gets around to delivering my copy...

The hiss disappears completely at -80dB volume but does not change in intensity at any other volume level.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Matthew: That's because -80 is identical to pushing the mute button.

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Take Care,
merc

The 950 has a high signal to noise ratio, even higher than the Rotel, at least this is what is seen on paper. The "hiss" issue should be completely absent considering the above.

Of course we all know that the real world and the spec sheets don't always hold true...I'm anxious to know WHAT was modified in these rumoured modified 950s.

The noise level was rated at 72db for the 950 - tha's not very high. I don't hear any noise/hiss with my ear next to the tweeter with my new 1066.
I found out that it's much nicer to have a new pre/pro than to be on a list!!!
BTW - I ordered some cables on Monday(which they screwed up) and I asked the woman if she had heard anything about 950's coming in stock and she said "I haven't heard anything" Keep on waitin boys.

The 1066 is rated in the low 90's (noise level)

According to the S/N specs for both units, the Outlaw says 102dB and the Rotel says 95dB.

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Take Care,
merc

Merc is correct:
OUTLAW AUDIO MODEL 950--PRELIMINARY SPECIFICATIONS

March 1, 2002

AUDIO SECTION

Analog

* Frequency response: 10 Hz - 90 kHz: +0, -3 dB (Bypass Mode)
* Signal to Noise Ratio: 102 dB (Bypass Mode)
* Distortion: 0.0038% (20 Hz ~ 20 kHz) (Bypass Mode)
* Input sensitivity / input impedance: 200 mV/ 47kohms
* Rated output: 1V(0dB gain in Bypass Mode)

Digital

* Signal to Noise Ratio: 102 dB
* Total Harmonic Distortion: <0.005% (1 kHz, at 0 dB)
* Dynamic Range: 100 dB
* D/A Output: Rated output 2 V (At 0 dB playback)
* Digital Input: S/P-DIF Format
* DSP Processor: Cirrus® CS 49326
* ADC: Cirrus CS 5360
* DAC: Cirrus CS 4396

Taken from Outlaws website.
DMC

I'm just reporting what Sound and Vision measured in their review of the Outlaw. The Rotel came out of my manual. In the same issue notice their measurements for other products...especially the $300 receiver.

Like i said, the 950 on paper has a higher signal to noise ratio and is >100db.

What bothers me somewhat is that some of those who have the Rotel and the Outlaw side by side exclaim the Rotel is quieter and in some case exhibit no hiss at all. It should be the other way around if anything. I'm getting some hiss with my unit; at my house it is very difficult to acheive a low background noise to check for thing such as this. At first i thought it was the ear to tweeter test like most people experience but the hiss seems more pronounced a month later. I can hear the hiss from 3-5 feet away and during quiet music passages i can faintly hear the hiss at the listening position. Is there a solution to this without asking for another unit?

My Outlaw 950 is dead silent no hiss whatsoever. Whats bothering me is that I have a subscription to this dumb magazine and have not recieved my copy yet.

[This message has been edited by JeffreyMercado (edited June 13, 2002).]

Jeffrey, I am with you. Hurry it up S&V!

i read the sound & vision review on the 950.

they mentioned that the front panel, buttons & knobs, & chassie look like a cheap receiver. (see my other post)

when someone go for separate rather than a receiver, they'd want the equipment to build like a tank. i know i would.

b&k, conrad johnson, krell, mark levinson, etc. wish i could afford them.

those are the true high end stuff.

make the outlaw products to look like them & i'm sold.

How on Earth did Gonk get his S&V so quickly? I just noticed that I live in the same general vicinity as him (Memphis) and I have yet to see my issue. No complaints, though, it was a free subscription.

mhoward

I didn't, a friend in Texas got his copy and told me about it. I actually hadn't read the review when I started this thread (I've since gotten a look at a copy).

Memphis area? Hmmm... Are you by any chance involved in the local Linux User's Group (GOLUM)?

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I cant believe I agree with Azryan, but, I think ha hit this one on the right. I still subscribe to S&V, but, I subscribe to everything anyway! Must say I prefer Widescreen and Stereophile Guide to HT mostly! Lets all try and go easy on this guy(Azryan)/ think he is just one of those extreme opinionated individuals!