Tuesday afternoon after I get out of work, I am off with my 950 in tow to my local audio shop. These guys are really decent, I would buy from them in a heartbeat. I couldn't pass on the 950 though, and I was on the list way early. The rotel was backordered at the time and they said to me I would be crazy if I didn't get it in and not at least try it.

So, the 950's been in my system for about 3 weeks, and have had ample time to go through it. They just got the 1066 in this week at the audio shop.

I am excited to be able to do this. I would assume everyone would like to see the review, so I will post my findings with full stats hopefully late Tuesday night when I get back.

Jeff

I'd be very interested to hear what you learn, BigJeff. By all means let us know how it goes.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

here's my first thoughts after only a couple of days with both of them in the same theater. I'd imagine that things will change as I have time to live with the 950:

Background info:

I’ve had the 1066 for a couple of weeks now, so I’m fairly used to it. I received the 950 on Friday and spent most of the night switching them out to compare and check for the issues that others have posted about the 950. Starting last night, I just left the 950 in the system so that I can have some time with it and try to eliminate familiarity with the 1066 as too much of an issue. I’ll put the 1066 back in next weekend and see if that changes any of my first impressions. The 950 vs. 1066 is the only thing I am swapping out in my theater. Everything else remains the same. All of this info should be read with the qualifier, “In my system,”


Facts (things I can measure):

Hiss: A lot of talk about this one. I have found that the 950 has a much louder hiss than the 1066. I can hear hiss on the 1066 from an inch or so from the tweeter but no more while the hiss on the 950 can be heard from ~4 feet away. Neither can be heard from my listening position in most cases, but the 1066 does seem to have the lower noise floor.

Signal Acquisition: The 950 is very slow. Again there are lots of comments on this already. When changing channels on the direct system the 950 takes a few seconds to lock. Not terribly annoying, but it is a little. With the 1066 I usually have audio before I have picture on my direct system.

Cross talk: Both systems show this. As far as I understand it’s due to the common ground for the analog inputs. If one analog source is playing, you can hear crosstalk on any unused analog input. I have not been able to hear the crosstalk on an active analog port even during complete silence.

Double Bass: This was a big concern of mine going in. I have read that a lot of people can’t hear it in their systems, but it turns out that I can. I guess this may be something like being able to see the rainbow effect on a DLP projector. Some people can see it and some can’t. What I ended up doing was playing sine waves at different frequencies with the sub on and with the sub off and measuring the output with a sound meter. There is clearly more output when both the sub and mains are playing the signal, but if you can’t hear it then it won’t be an issue for you.

Drop Outs: I have had a few drop outs using the optical input for my directTV receiver. From asking on the outlaw forum, this does not appear to be a common problem. It is not happening enough to make a difference with my testing, but I did want to point out that it’s there.


Opinions (take it for what it’s worth):

Sound: The big question. I find it hard to even write this because it is such a subjective thing, so please put a huge IMHO here. These are both great sounding rigs. Probably the best I have ever heard. I have not listened to anything that costs many times more than either of these boxes with the exception of my old Ref 20 which I think retailed for ~$2400. I don’t think it’s fair to compare these with older generation processors on a cost basis, so I don’t think that counts. That being said, sound wise they both outpace the Ref 20 by quite a bit. I was not able to have them both in the theater at the same time, but I lived with the Ref 20 for over a year so I stand by that claim. They both offer a huge soundstage and very clear and detailed sound. The movie processing is dead on with each of them and I don’t think you could tell the difference between rotel’s XS processing and outlaw’s CES if they are not the same thing.
One of the big sound questions is if you could tell them apart in an ABX test. My answer to this is that I think I could with enough listening and on certain source material. Most of the time I don’t think I could, but there are certain times when the 950 sounds a little harsh to me or maybe it’s the 1066 sounding a little warm; I don’t know. I don’t want to get in to which one is producing the more accurate sound because I have no idea what the answer to that is. What I do know is that in that 5% of the time that I think they sound different; I prefer the warmer sound of the 1066. The 950 sounds a little uncomfortable and maybe fatiguing at those times. This is probably much like the speaker debates where some people like a warm sound and some like a bright sound and some can’t even agree on what speakers are bright and what speakers are warm. There is no right or wrong answer here.

Looks: This is meaningless to me as all of my equipment lives in a closet in my office and is hardly ever seen by anyone. I do prefer the looks of the 1066 and I think that the silver one is pretty cool looking. The outlaw looks a little fisher-price with the big buttons and colors, but I can’t imagine that coming into play on someone’s decision to buy.

Ease of Use: I didn’t see any real differences here. They each seem to have their good and bad points, but I can’t imagine that during normal operation either would pose any problems at all with usability.


Bottom line: These are both great pre/pros. I’d be very happy to own either of them, and I don’t think you can go wrong in a choice between them. In my opinion, the 950 dies a death of a thousand paper cuts in my system. The big issues of the double bass and the brightness push me towards the 1066 and all of the other little things add up to another push in that direction. After living with the 950 and getting used to its sound, that may change. But that’s where I stand for my first impressions.


Sorry this was so long. I guess I had more to say than I thought.


brianca


[This message has been edited by brianca (edited May 26, 2002).]

brainca- Great comparison! Always a pleasure to read a review by someone who really does appear to be objective and not have any hidden agendas...

I just got off the Rotel website and I gotta say the 1066 is a nice looking unit and I believe I saw 2 sub outputs which is nice to have. Otherwise, the back panel looks similar to the 950. Any idea how much the 1066 can be purchased for? I imagine its significantly more the the Outlaw counterpart!

Sorry, I should have added that. The 1066 streets for ~$1300.00 ($1499MSRP)


brianca

brianca:

This should be good then, as I have had 3 solid weeks to become familiar with the 950.


What should be interesting is that, outside of the 950, nothing will be the same as what I have been listening to gear wise, so I should be able hear differences if there are any. That way BOTH systems will sound "new" so to speak, hooked up to some higher end gear.

What I am hoping to be able to do with the higher end gear is to eliminate any other short commings on equipment and put the rotel up against outlaw, "Mano a mano".

Jeff

Agreed. I'm looking forward to what you think. Obviously my main concern is what it sounds like in my theater so I'm glad I did it here, but I'd I'd love to hear what you think about both on higher end systems.

brianca

Since this is a non-biased dicussion I don't feel to much like a bad guy posting these picks of my silver 1066. I won't make any comments, because since I have bought unit I am obviously biased. Just thought I'd give you guys a look.

http://pages.cthome.net/lradden/1066.htm



------------------

Legairre,
Welcome to the forum. I am the person who asked you 128 questions about the 1095 at HTF. Great pictures of the 1066. What about the pictures of the 1095? Good luck with your new home theater. lk

Re pic of 1066 - that set of 16 buttons on the right side does look rather 'boring.' They should have been set up in functional 'groups.' Easier to use and better looking.

And the big center plus the two over-long buttons sticking out to the left don't look really all that appealing.

Frankly - audio equipment should just stay out of the way. And just be listened to.



[This message has been edited by Jason Kent (edited May 27, 2002).]

ltkhuc,
Thanks. Well now that we're all done moving everything into storage(of course the 1095 and 1066 are with me) and officially living with my mother in-law until mid July. I have plenty of time for pics. I'll take some 1095 pics tonight and add a link on my site on the left.

Here's a link to my site
http://pages.cthome.net/lradden/default.htm

------------------


[This message has been edited by Legairre (edited May 27, 2002).]

Brian, thanks for the comparison. I have been thinking about testing the both of them head to head as well.

Edit: The main point of my message to Kevin is in his quote to me. See below.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited May 27, 2002).]

brainca:

The best place to demo is definately in your own system.... No doubt about it. I would have done it at home and I even would have dragged over my brothers Ref30 for a threeway shootout but the only one they have there is the display and I can't take it home. I also think I am going to sell off my current set of speakers and sub and get a more efficient matched set.

Jeff

Jed- What's your problem? I meant it as a genuine statement. I have also read brainca's posts on HTF and find them very un-biased.

I'd venture too many to list

Kevin, after reading your post again, I understand what you mean because I know Brian is very unbiased as well. I am sorry I interpreted it the way I did. I guess lately I am not used to seeing the word hidden agenda used in complimentary way which I can now see it was.

I truly apologize, I thought you were insinuating something and in fact you were just making a very true and deserving statement about Brian. My foot is officially lodged in my mouth.

Jed- Coolness!

thanks, guys. That's nice of you to say.

I have to admit that the 950 is growing on me as it lives in the theater. I've just been using it for movie viewing, but does a great job. the brightness I referred to earlier is still there on occasion, but it's not worrisome at all on movie soundtracks.

It's a great piece, and well worth the cost. I think the folks who are picking it up will be very pleased. Epically if you are stepping up from lower end equipment.

I highly reccomend that anyone looking for a piece in this price range pick them both up and give them a listen in your home. It is a very enlightening experience.

brianca..

[This message has been edited by brianca (edited May 27, 2002).]

Brianca,does the Rotel have the ability to set differant speaker levels for each input?Also since you have both units ,are you testing to decide which one to send back or are you keeping both units?One more quick question , how does the remote for the Rotel compare with the Outlaws ?

the rotel saves sub trim per surround mode, but not input. Large/Small is a global setting and can't be changed per input.

I'll be returning or selling one of them at the end of the trial. I'm just trying to decide which one suits me best.

there are more buttons on the Rotel remote and i like where the light button is, but I don't really see that much functional or comfort differences. i think i'll be picking up a third party remote whichever one I keep.

brainca

Brian, thanks for the review. You mention the double bass issue but the Outlaw and the Rotel are sort of complementary with respect to pass through. The Outlaw gives you the 80Hz crossover (or double bass bypass), while the Rotel gives you only true bypass. Do you mind telling us what kind of speakers you have and which of these modes you prefer?

Sure thing. I'm running energy C-6s right now. They extend down a little under 30Hz. Right now most of the music I've listened to in pass through mode doesn't have a lot of info that goes much lower than that, so I have so far prefered the straight pass.

I'm sure a lot of folks would be happier with the 80Hz crossover if they are using sats for mains.


brianca..

Good to hear a comparison between these two. What kind of amp are you using?? Is there $500 woth tof difference??
It is my understanding that with the Rotel you can go to the cabinet and hit a button for the output you want to hear...with the 950 you have to scroll through all the inputs(like setting a digital watch) to get to what you want. True????

Only you can answer how much it's worth to you. Sorry.

Well.. On the 950 remote you can do what you can do from the 1066's panel, while on the 1066 remote you have to do more or less what you can do from the 950's panel. Make sense? I'd rather have the functionality on the remote.

At the same time, I think there's a better chance of dicrete codes for the 1066. I've even heard tell of user hackability through the RS-232 port. Cool idea, but just a rumor.

EDIT-- I'll have to check to make sure that that description is close enough to true. they are not exactly the same from one remote to the other faceplate, but it is close.


brianca..

[This message has been edited by brianca (edited May 28, 2002).]

The Rotel has discrete codes available for 2-channel, 5-channel and 7-channel stereo, PLII Cinema and PLII Music. If you have a Pronto, you can download a CCF from their website.



[This message has been edited by jcorkery (edited May 28, 2002).]

Maybe it's just me, but a pet peeve of mine with the 950 is you need to press a lot of buttons on the remote (something like eight buttons give or take) to change the subwoofer volume, which is something I like to do when switching between movies and music, or even while watching a movie, to increase the slam effect.

Even with the macro capability, you still have to press AUD and then the macro button you designate, to modify the subwoofer volume, and it takes a while for the macro to download the (eight?) buttons. It take an annoyingly long time to wait, for me anyway.

Not that this is a big deal, but I'm slightly curious how easy or hard it is to change subwoofer volume on the fly, with the 1066.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited May 29, 2002).]

First of all, I can't stress how nice it is to have the sub trim saved by surround mode. I have the sub turned down for stereo and up for DTS and a notch or two higher for DD. That's saved and automatic.

To change it dynamically, you press the sub button on the remote to bring up the current volume and then up and down until you are happy. This setting is temporary. If you change inputs or power down it will revert to the old setting. The same can be done for the center speaker and the surrounds.

With this you don't have to worry about the original setting since it reverts automatically. This is great for me because I can't see the OSD on component, but I can press 'Sub' and then up or down until it sounds ok and I don't have to worry about getting the OSD back so that I can reset it to the old volume.


Now that I think about it. I'm not sure if the on the fly trim settings on the 950 revert when the input is changed or the unit is turned off. I'll try it out tonight.

brianca..

[This message has been edited by brianca (edited May 28, 2002).]

Ok. I just checked the 950 and the on-the-fly trim settings appear to be permanent. So if you are listening to a movie with low dialog and you boost the center speaker, it will not revert to the saved level when you switch inputs or power cycle. You just have to remember to change it when you finish that film.


brianca...

brianca:

Will you post on the board when you decide to sell? I'm in the same boat right now trying to decide to wait or just pickup a 1066.

Sure thing. I plan to go through next weekend with them both and then decide.


------------------

I love the way my 950 sounds, but I do think that the Outlaws seriously dropped the ball on a number of "usability" issues. For one, it should be able to store separate configuration profiles for each input... It is extremely annoying to have to change the volume level when switching from TV to TUNER, or to have to change the sub trim all the time. It would also be nice to be able to set some additional settings per decoding mode, for example have the volume automatically lower by 4dB when going from DD to DTS. These things don't sound terribly "hard" to me; they got the really hard stuff right (the way it sounds) and missed on the easy stuff.

Additionally, any piece of equipment this complex should have discrete IR codes out the wazoo. For all the things they never anticipated you'd want to do, there are always learning remotes to fix the problem, if the discrete codes are there. I simply cannot fathom why there wouldn't be codes for switching surround modes or setting individual speaker trims (if indeed this is the case; I don't have any firsthand knowlege of this).

I hope they do a lot of thinking about this kind of stuff before they release their next pre/pro. Again, I love the way mine sounds, but I find myself spending way too much time futzing with the remote and navigating the OSD menus.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Matthew, I couldn't have said it better. I think they left out the last 5% that would have really made this unit special.

Even though this might be nice, I find that I will most likely make changes in the volume level anyway, regardless of where the preset level would be set. For example, levels can vary greatly within the various sources such as TV with big volume differences between stations. Even DVD's vary quite a bit, requiring level adjustment. I just do not have a set level which I use for each of the various sources that I would not make a change in for any number of reasons. Chances are good that I'm going to pick up the remote and make a volume change for any number of reasons including environmental factors such as "Turn that down, it's too loud!" So, point being- I'm probably gonna make a change anyway, so no big deal for me.
In regards to sub level changes, once I set the trim and crossovers, I rarely have had reason to change the sub level for music or movies. Maybe I'm just lucky. On the rare occasions I do, it only takes a few seconds and it's done. I could see this being a problem if you are constantly making adjustments in sub levels- an easy to access sub trim button on the remote could be handy. For me, these are very minor annoyances and are easy to live with.

I've read a few other posts around with people having the same comments about the 1066 and 950 that I have as far as the 1066 being laid back and the 950 being forward. The more I listen, the more I am convinced that this is the best way to decide between these units based on sound alone.

I know a lot of folks don't care about all of the other things. (I happen to) So if you want to choose one of these based on sound, I think that may be your best guide. If you like a forward sound, try the 950. If you like a laid back sound, try the 1066.

I think that very well sums up the audio performance of these two pieces. Both are great performers that I think will please either camp (warm and bright) accordingly.


brianca..

to add to Brians post (if you don't mind)

everything depends on the other equipment found in the system, obviously not just the prepro. My ATI 1502 and Monitor Audio Silver 5's are highly accurate while providing lots of detail and air. Therefore for me, i believe the Rotel would be the best match for my set-up. With the 950, i find the sound to still be accurate but on the edgy side of things. I'm not implying that the addition of the 950 makes my system harsh by any means, just a little on the edgy side. This only applies to music, dd/dts sound is right on in my book.

If only the 1066 had 24/192 DAC's the decision would be much more simple for me...

Absolutely correct. Thanks for the clarification.

Brianca...where did you find those other posts on the 1066???

I agree with you. Maybe the "usability" issues are because the 950 is Outlaw's very first pre/pro. The 1066 doesn't have as Brian says, a "thousand papercuts" of minor problems, but not because Rotel is a better company, but because Rotel has built pre/pro's for years. The 950 is a good FIRST pre/pro. And it costs less than the Rotel, which makes buying the 950 less painful, despite the "thousand papercuts" of usability issues and hiss and pops, etc. But I bet most of issues can be easily corrected, perhaps with a minor EEprom revision to the 950. (Rev 1 of the 950?) Alternatively, I would not be surprised if these usability issues get corrected in the Sherbourn or the Atlantic Tech clones. Both clones have the benefit of watching how Outlaw did it and no doubt EastTech will be happy to oblige with minor changes to allow Sherbourn and AT to differentiate their product. This could even be used to justify the higher price for the Sherbourn and AT clones. Of course, this is all pure speculation.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited May 29, 2002).]

brianca,

Give the 950 some time to be fair... I found the 950 to be slightly harsh at first myself (very critically speaking), but it's really changed since then (I got mine in the first week of shipping).

I no longer find it nearly as harsh now. Now I won't call it perfect or course, but I wouldn't use the word harsh at all now, like I did at first.

I'm going to try a diff. amp to hear the diff., since that has an effect of course too.

My current amp is the digital 200W x 2 Audiosource AMP 7t.

Also...

Don't think only bookshelf speakers are better off w/ the bass cut off below 80Hz.

Those Energy's of yours would be better off crossed over @ 80Hz than run full range (which they aren't), so the double bass shouldn't be an issue for you either.

Those dual 6 1/2" woofers are producing everything in the midrange up to the tweeter which is x'ed over about ...what... probably ~2500Hz?

NOT having to play the massive tones of 80Hz and below will very much open up the sound of those woofers even more than they are now.

And you won't be sending those drivers tones lower than the 30hz that they can't do at all -not that those Energy's are actually flat to below 30Hz like you think they are, but that's not the point.

And you'll gain more headroom from your main speaker's amps by not having to play those lowest of tones.

Many good things to be had by using that 80Hz analog x-over in the 950.

I cross my Newform Research 645's over @ 80Hz even though they actually can play flat to ~35Hz without any 'room boost' -which they don't get any of, because they're correctly set up ~6 feet away from any walls (like your Energy's should be to sound their best -if you have the space).

These speakers use dual 6 1/2" Scan-Speak 8545 carbonfiber/paper woofers in a ported cabinet, so in that respect they're similar to your Energy's drivers in that they play much of the midrange while also having to play the full bass range if set to 'Large'.

They're x-ed over lower than your Energy's though they're in an even better position to play the bass range.

Also, this driver has a freq. resonance of ~30Hz. This is tremendously low for a 6 1/2" driver and almost no 6 1/2" in production can match it.

It's the midrange driver used in the $20K Wilson Audio WATT/puppy, and used by tons of VERY high end companies.

My point (and there is one -heh) is NOT to brag or anything (sorry if it sounds that way), but to explain that even while my Newform's are more suited to play very deep bass compared to your Energy's, since the woofers have to play higher freqs. (like yours), they're better off w/ the sub handling the very heavy non-directional bass tones below 80Hz as are your Energy's.

Only tower speakers that use a "sepp. midrange driver" (which neither of our speakers do) are not benefitted by getting the 'below 80Hz' bass out of them.

And even then, there's no reason NOT to have your subwoofer handle the below 80Hz tones.

They're non-directional, and a larger subwoofer driver is better off playing those 80Hz and lower tones than your 6 1/2's, and you get less distortion from the subs at the same volume due to it being corner loaded boosting it's overall output -an effect that works great for subs, but like crap w/ the directional signals above 80Hz that come from your main speakers.

Maybe this'll help other people too who think this 'double bass' issue is a problem.

I do think Outlaw was dumb in how they have double bass if you have your mains set to 'large', BUT probably close to 100% of people using the 950 have NO good reason NOT to cut their mains off at 80Hz anyway.

They could have bad reasons like...
"My mains go lower so I want them to" (for no reason other than they won't think they're getting their money's worth from their costly mains if the neuter it's low bass output)
or
"My sub in NOT non-directional at 80Hz" (because their sub sucks and is playing above 80Hz harmonics, and/or they have room problems that need to be dealt with)
or
"My mains have tighter bass than my sub in the 30ish-80Hz region"
(Again, your sub sucks then. Go buy a real one).

I understand and agree with everything that you've said, but I still insist on doing what sounds best to me in my theater. That's the only real gauge I have to go by.

Like I said, I don't think that my Energys can play a 20Hz note, but I don't listen to much music that has a lot of 20Hz tones. I'd rather listen to an acoustic guitar recording that my energys can do quite well using just my mains.

I just wanted to point out that the double bass can be easily heard and measured in my system. I had heard some folks say that they couldn't tell the difference with the sub on or off. I could.

I really appreciate your post. Hopefully, it'll re-enforce that what I've posted is just my opinion about what I hear. Hopefully, everyone will listen and decide for themselves.

Also, I tried to point out that the 950 was rarely harsh. It's usually just bright or forward. There are still passages that I hear that I would consider harsh to me.

I also posted that it had grown on me with more listening as you suggested, but I have a limited time to grow used to it before I have to fish or cut bait.

brianca..


[This message has been edited by brianca (edited May 29, 2002).]

This would have posted sooner hadn't my PC power supply kicked the bucket.

OK.. I got to do the demo head to head. This is a subjective demo as I will relate what I thought I heard and the other 2 people that were there with me heard.
Here was the setup.

1066/950
Sony DVP-S9000ES Via COAX
Proceed AMP5
B&W CDM 7NT Fronts
B&W CDM CNT Center
B&W CDM SNT Rears
Loewe Widescreen TV

We were on limited time, so our test was short, sweet and to the point. 5.1 Surround evaluation and an audio only evaluation of the 1066 at the end. I didn't bother with 7.1 as my system is going to be 5.1 for a while. This is just a listening test, not a feature for feature comparison. Dolby Digital 5.1 ver Dolby Digital 5.1.


Synced both processors to exact same settings. Strange issue #1 with the 950, the center channel setting seemed a bit high comparatively. Not sure why when we ran identical settings. This made the 950 sound a bit bright in the center. Talked to one of the guys on staff at Outlaw today and he said it shouldn't be that way. Not sure if this was a setting problem or a unit problem. I will know more Monday when the guys get back from the show.

We compared the full pod racer scene. Both units sounded quite similar. Differences were distinct, but not what we expected. Although, we had Strange issue #2 pop up with the 950. It seemed to lack front to back detail. Not something anyone of us were expecting. Like when the crashing pod racer went over head. It seemed like the transition was harsh, to harsh to the rear. I am thinking a setting was off but the distance settings were identical to the 1066's, maybe it had to do with the same setting issue as the center channel. BRAINCA: Maybe you can verify that transition with the pod racer scene with your setup. Also the 950 seemed to lack a bit of separation with some of the crowd scenes. You could hear distinctive clapping from individuals with the 1066 where with the 950 they seemed to blend together.

The 1066 was what I expected from Rotel, a solid performer. Nothing stood out to make me say OH MY, just solid sound. The 950's bass stood out ALOT. This was the 950's biggest plus of the demo. Tremendous. You could FEEL the pod racers hitting the ground. That stood apart from the 1066 as we agreed the 1066 didn't have as much bass as the 950.

Now these 950 issues may have been goofed up settings or not. I'll know more Monday.

Conclusion: Assuming the problems we encountered with the 950 were settings then its a toss up. Then you have to feature for feature compare and the 1066's lack of a tuner, might make you want the 950 more and its about 450 dollars less (1/3 less) which makes the 950 on heck of a deal. Now there are some issues with "usability" portion of the 950. You'll have to decide.

On a personal note about the 950: Human interface is important, the buttons and volume knob SUCK on the 950. I understand price points and you need to cut certain things to get to that. I understand why, but I woulda paid 50 bucks more for better knobs and buttons. These are things that you interact with. To me, it may very well make my decision to drop the 950 in favor of the 1066. The 1066 seems a bit more "intuative" as well. Again these are just my observations, take them for what they are worth.

Jeff

I have to agree that the 950 is basically bright, forward, and yes often harsh. Using an old Rotel Prologic Pre/Pro as a reference, it can mute some details, but basically has a very smooth and rich presentation.

Since the rest of my system is on the revealing side (ES9000, B&W Matrix 804's, etc.) the 1066 may be what I need to get a fuller smoother sound if its similar in character to the 960AX pre/pro the 950 replaced for me.

As much as being revealing, detailed and "accurate" was touted by the beta testers, the reality of that is that much of your material (music and movies not optimally recorded) is not going to sound as good as with a smoother warmer and ultimately more forgiving component.

My question is, does the Rotel 1066 carry on the basic Rotel tradition of being smoother and warmer, if somewhat less revealing than the 950?

For those who've spent lots of time with both, how would you characterize the differences in sound quality for 2 channel and HT?

For my system, the 950 is still too harsh and bright for my tastes, and yes I'm approaching 30 days (plenty of time to burn in).

I'm considering holding out for the AVM-20, but maybe the 1066 is enough of a step in the right direction. Unfortunately no local Rotel dealers will let me audition the unit in home..

Here's my two cents worth, I found at first
the 950 out of the box sounded a tad bright or harsh. But with the more time I have
been listening to it, the smoother it seems. I have had it about 30 days and I'm going to keep it, I have had NO problems with it at all. I was going to compare both units myself, since I own a Rotel amp. But for
now I am very pleased with 950.

drewman

Here's my two cents worth, I found at first
the 950 out of the box sounded a tad bright or harsh. But with the more time I have
been listening to it, the smoother it seems. I have had it about 30 days and I'm going to keep it, I have had NO problems with it at all. I was going to compare both units myself, since I own a Rotel amp. But for
now I am very pleased with 950.

drewman

Here in the greater Los Angeles area, the 1066 can be had for just under $1250 if you are willing to shop around aggressively, but without trying too hard, it's available here for $1350. Price excludes tax.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited May 30, 2002).]

BigJeff: I dont't think your unit is unique with the center channel issue. The center channel on my unit is also overly loud, but this is easily fixed with a trim setting. It was the same way with my 1050. I always just assumed that speaker in my setup was more efficient or something. It's not something I mind; just interesting.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

BigJeff, just wondering, did you set all speaker levels for the 950 using a SPL meter or something similar? I agree with what Matthew said regarding the center channel output and would guess the levels were also not correctly set for fronts and the surrounds resulting in "Strange issue #2". The Manual says the output level(s) must be properly matched to insure a correct presentation of multi-channel sources and that this is almost impossible to do by ear. (See page 27 in the 950 Owner's Manual on Channel Calibration) Just a hunch on my part as I have not experienced either of these issues. Also, I am not quite sure what you meant when you said you "Synced both processors to exact same settings"? Thanks for taking the time to compare the two units and post your findings here.

The 1066 was setup with a SPL meter. We set the 950's trim settings to the exact same, distance settings to the exact same and the speaker types and crossover to the same levels. In regards to trim setting, a db is a db no matter how you slice it... They should be the same. Even if there was a output voltage difference, it should be the same across the board resulting in an increase or decrease in volume not on speaker standing out more than another.

With problem number two, what we heard was a lack of cohesion throughout. There were distinct left, right center and rears, without the smooth transition between them.

Jeff

BigJeff, did you use internal test tones to set the trim levels or a calibration disc such as Avia? I have found that internal test tones do not provide accurate results for calibration. I'm not sure why, but I believe others have noted this as well.

Jeff, why don't you try it the other way? SPL the 950 and then use those settings for the Rotel. If I am reading your reasoning correctly, how did you determine that the 950 had the wrong levels and not the Rotel?

Dzung Pham:
I believe they were set up with the test tones from the 1066, not any special calibration disk.

Jed M:
I don't have the Rotel in my possesion so I can't do it the other way around. I could tell that the center was blatently out of place.

Side note: When I first got the 950 and set it in my system (aside from this test about 30 days ago) I had to tone down the center. With the SPL meter it was in the neighborhood of 4DB higher than that of the fronts, everything was set on the 950 at 0db.

To answer your question how I determined it was the 950 an not the other way around. I could hear the center out of place on the 950. If I remember correctly the Rotel was like +1 for the center, +2 for the right and +3 for the left. Thats the numbers I would expect from the 950 as well. That wasn't the case with the 950, even at home my fronts are about the same as the system we used, but my center at home had to toned down to like -3db. There was cohesion between fronts and the center on the 1066. Effects rolled left to right and front to back smoothly on the 1066. The 950 it was like left--center--right, front----back, where your transitions were choppy. Not terrible, but noticable. All three of us noticed. Now, I am sure I could have toned down the center by dropping it 4db, but in reality they *should* be even. Now hypothetically speaking if the 950 is giving odd volatages out that don't match each other, you could SPL each channel and probably do away with problem number 1. Which I have already done in my system, it looks like others have done it as well.

Since I do have access to a Ref 30. (I'll drag my brother over and his B&K in tow) I could then have a day of testing versus only a couple hours.

Jeff

Jeff,

You own the 950, right? Do you notice the same issues in your set-up at home once you calibrate it?

brianca..

Really? Why? Is your center speaker identical to the fronts? Is it on the same plane or is it higher or lower? What is it on or around? "Dropping it 4dB..." is why the ability to trim levels is provided- is it not? The Rotel unit is not the Outlaw unit. I still think you have to perform calibrations on both units when installed in the system. What is right (settings) for one won't necessarily be right for the other. I believe you have proved this to be so.

Jeff I agree with Steve,if you did not perform any calibration on the 950,then your statements are inconclusive,you see if your front channels are off by 3 or 4 DB's your soundstage from front to back is not going to be seamless,will sound like ping-pong,Wich i believe you accurately discribe.No fair game!!Your center channel obviously was out of balance by as much as 4 db"s by your own admission.I am waiting to see the results on your comparison to the B&K equipment.Good Luck.

Jeff I would agree with the other posts, there is nothing wrong with the 950. You need to calibrate each system you have. In this case, as you have proven, one size does not fit all.

Well a little more testing on the home system front..

Here is the setup:

950
Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis powering
Carver AL-III+'s for fronts.
Outlaw 750 powering
Boston 920 Center and a pair of
Ohm F's for my rear.
(I guess I have a heart for really inefficient speakers.. LOL One of these days I might go out and get a timber matched, efficient 5.1 setup... I'd hate to give up the carver ribbons though )
DVP-NS700P DVD hooked up via Optical cable

The 950 SPL calibrated to the 950's test tones. Same pod racer scene again. Room size was different though. 15 x 15 this time instead the larger room we used for the test. Issues one and two were pretty much resolved. ALTHOUGH, when calibrated there was still an issue with the center being off. Not by much but it was still off. 99% improvement all the way around. Transitions were greatly improved. So yes, the problems seemed to be unit settings (which I thought they might be). I still have some center issues which I will get calling Outlaw about on Monday.

Which brings me to my next point. Here is what I find ODD. Why are the output voltages seemingly WAY OFF between the 1066 and the 950? They SHOULD be set up to some type of standards regardless of Unit or Maker. I had to do quite a signigicant drop of DB to get the 950 to even out across the fronts and center. (BRIANCA: Did you see the same in your comparision? How much different are your calibrations between units?) And if the output voltages are off why arn't they off EVEN?? You would figure the 950 would sound louder or softer due to different voltages, why then is it semingly varied over all 5 channels, particularly the center channel which seems to be off the most.

With these issues in the bag and pretty much solved, I might still send the unit back or sell it due to the 950's POOR human interface. (This observation is completely mine, not nesessarily anyone elses) I guess I really have a pet peeve about those damn buttons and knob. Is 950 everything its cracked up to be, outside of minor issues. YEAH. Is it worth the $899 and shipping. Double YEAH. Probably the best bang for your buck pre/pro going. Just my humble opinion.. I still am planning on the Ref 30 Comparison on Sunday.

Jeff

I didn't make any comparison between the settings on the two when calibrated. I'll take a look at them when I switch back to the 1066 tonight.


brianca

Ok, My 2 cents worth.
You've just discovered an audio truth: All systems/components need individual calibration. Even between channels on the same amplifier you're going to find voltage differences between channels. Electronics manufacturing is far from an exact science. The distances, resistances, capacitances, etc. are going to have variations in different signal paths within a piece of gear, let alone two separate pieces of gear. Then you add even more organic materials into the mix (i.e. speakers-wood, fiberglass, etc.) and your differences become even more pronounced and measurable. Of course your speakers are going to have different sensitivities. You are using very different speakers for every position! (By the way, I love the Carver ribbons. There's rumor that BC is going to design more.) The center speaker is of completely different design than your fronts. I would have been extremely surprised if they had measured the same.
Bottom line: All systems sound better when completely calibrated and dialed-in. And they all measure and respond differently.
Big Shock!
Mix.

A point of information:

For those who are reading this thread and who have never "touched" a 950 - I completely disagree with those who say the buttons and knob on the 950 are terrible. I realize that this can be considered a subjective thing, but I just don't understand why the knobs and buttons are taking such a severe beating. I, for one, don't find a thing wrong with the knobs and the rubberized volume control is actually kind of nice.

After all this talk I took the time to compare the knobs and buttons with my other equipment, which includes some very nice pieces from a build standpoint and the Outlaw, in my opinion, fits in very nicely in build quality.

Also, in the real world I've maybe used the buttons and knobs on the 950 maybe 3 or 4 times (and I've had one for four months now) so even if these were crappy (and they are not!) it wouldn't really matter to me. I'm not trying to justify the importance or non-importance of quality knobs based on remote usage - it's just that I honestly do not agree with all this knob bashing since my unit (now a production unit) has perfectly good hardware.

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 04/17/02) Now includes Outlaw 950 and Outlaw 755

[This message has been edited by Robert A Fowkes (edited June 01, 2002).]

RAF:
I am glad you wrote your opinion on the 950 buttons and knob... It gives people two sides of view.

I may completely disagree with you on this, but its good to know that the buttons and knobs don't have an effect on others.

Unfortunately they effect me. Here are my pet peeves with the buttons and knobs. The buttons wiggle. I can almost make a button press pushing on them sideways. They feel cheap to me as a result. At least my Audiotrons buttons, which are similar are rubber coated and press firmly. The knob is what I dislike most. I use the volume knob quite often. This rubberized monstrosity is a hunk of garbage IMHO. It lacks any "feel" to it. There is no weight to it. It feels hollow and has little resistance. I don't mind the rubbery part, just the knobs feel. Even my 500 buck Sony receiver 5 years ago had a WAY better volume control knob. Compared to the 1066 or the REF 30, it doesn't hold water.

Just my observations.
Jeff

Strangely enough, I've been listening with my ears and not my fingers. Well, I guess you learn something new everyday.
Mix

Everybody's perception is different. smile....

Mix:

Agreed sound IS the most important part of a pre/pro. The 950 is good at that. However, the importance of human interface should be a factor as well and should not be overlooked.

Jeff

The human interface is indeed piss poor on the 950, in my opinion. But the sound is very good except for the hiss (which is more noticable than on most other models with the volume low) and some other issues mentioned previously. I also find the AM band unlistenable due to static, but that's maybe not a deal breaker for most people.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited June 01, 2002).]

Since it is rubberized, I would assume it would hold water quite well

Hello Jeff,
Indeed you are correct. Human interface is important. I was playing devil's advocate to see if I could wring some more hard, good information out of you guys.
I'm more concerned about the noise floor issue than anything else at this point. I'm currently using the 1050 as a pre/processor while waiting for my 950. The 1050 is a good unit and only makes me more comfortable with my upcoming purchase of the 950. The 1050's volume knob is also rubberized but is very solid and of the infinite type. No stops in either direction. I'm extremely pleased with the build quality and ergonomics of the 1050. I have no reason to believe that the 950 would be of any lesser quality. I will most definately give a report when the time comes. Until then, y'all enjoy yur 'knob' argument.
Mix

Jeff,

As you said, different strokes for different folks. I respect your opinion on this but I also retain the right to totally disagree with it. I don't find anything at all wrong with the buttons or knob. But, as you know, this is something that everyone can judge for themselves. I just don't want people to get the impression that the buttons or knobs are substandard or shoddy. They are not. However, your standards may be much higher than mine, even though the 950's build quality holds up nicely with other components I've used.

The important thing is how the 950 sounds - and the buttons and knobs have absolutely no effect on the quality of the sound. Rubberized or not, wiggly or not - nothing translates into sonic degradation.

And I will still state that the hiss on my 950 is no more than anything else I've listened to and non-existant in my real world conditions. I still don't consider maximum volume with your ear pressed against the speaker grille "real world listening." I still contend that if you hear hiss at normal volumes at normal listening distances then either (a) some is wrong with your individual 950 or (b) something else in your system is causing the hiss.

I have talked to enough people now who have used 950s (as well as my owm listening tests) to convince me of this.

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 04/17/02) Now includes Outlaw 950 and Outlaw 755

[This message has been edited by Robert A Fowkes (edited June 01, 2002).]

The 950 is the cheapest Pre/pro(that I know of) on the market. Some people seem to be getting good sound while others have units with QA issues. No offense to anyone who bought one, but it's a $900 product. If you get the sound you can't really expect looks and quality buttons and controls for that price too. Nothing is for free. You get what you pay for.

So for me the extra $375 difference I paid for the 1066 was well worth it. Better QA, looks, buttons and controls. Many who have tested the 950 and 1066 even feel the 1066's warmer sound was more favorable compared to the 950's brighter sound. The sound part is very subjective though.

You can't expect everything for $900. Outlaw put their money into the sound, so they had to skimp on something.


[This message has been edited by Legairre (edited June 01, 2002).]

I think the concern for some people is that given how many 950's have shipped so far, this suggestion seems to be coming up an awful lot when people report problems. One guy said that he was on his 3rd 950 because there were problems with the first two. Now, he may have been happy with the fact that Outlaw was very quick and very cooperative in remedying his problem, but the fact that they had to is cause for concern IMHO.

For me personally, the wait, the reports of possible compatibility issues with HTPC's, and the fact that people who have compared both claimed that the 950 sounds somewhat bright compared to the 1066 finally convinced me to jump ship and go with the Rotel unit. (which I picked up today and will be hooking up in a little bit when my wife finishes watching a movie).

me too, finally brought the Rotel RSP-1066 today. I have been on the waiting list since Jan, and I was supposed to get an offer email by the end of May, I waited, waited...and I am out of patience. I can move on with my life now.

rich

This brings up some interesting points. More than anything it emphasizes the need for people to actually hear these units for themselves rather than just to rely on the words of others. Nothing substitutes for actual experience, although in many cases this is impractical. However, there is a "good news, bad news" scenario with Outlaw and the 950. On the one hand, the waiting list makes this a bit difficult and frustrating to potential customers. But on the other hand the availability of a money-back return policy does allow for in-home auditioning at some point. You have to weigh the options and do what you have to do.

And on the matter of "brightness" I have some feelings on the matter. One of the first things I noticed when beta testing the 950 was that it appeared a bit "bright" (I thought more of the term "harsh)" when listening to certain source materials - especially satellite TV in my particular case. Then, as I listened more I realized that I was mistaking "brightness" or "harshness" for what is really "accuracy" of sound. My Dish Network audio is inherently bright or edgy sounding and all that the 950 was guilty of was reproducing it with a degree of accuracy that was missing from my previous equipment - a Denon 5700. Don't blame the 950 for doing its job in this area.

However, some people have probably become accustomed to other than accurate sound so they may not prefer accuracy, as curious as that may seem. Once again, an important reason to listen for yourself rather than to listen to others if this is feasable.

Whatever.

Nobody is forcing anybody to purchase one product over another.

My 2 cents on this whole issue of comparative evaluations.

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 04/17/02) Now includes Outlaw 950 and Outlaw 755

Well I have had the 950 in my HT since May 15th and have put it through all of the paces: (please note the "" around some words denote that it is "my" opinion and your mileage may and most likely will very)

1) Hiss - Well like most other 950 owners this is not an issue with "my" unit. I hear no hiss unless "I" put my ear on the tweeter.

2) Brightness/Harshness – “I” do not think it is bright or harsh and feel my Newcastle R945 is actually harsher. I get the feeling that Robert is correct and that the 950 is just very accurate and for this passes the brightness or harshness of the source. I have a lot of different CD’s in my 300 disc changer and “I” can now tell which ones are AAD, ADD and DDD and also how well they are mixed/mastered. “I” hear much more detail in my music and sound tracks.

3) Look/Feel of 950 – “I” feel that the MUTE button on the 950 is the best of all the controls on the front face. “I” like it best as it seems to be recessed more, thus does not move around as much as the rest of the buttons. “I” wish Outlaw would have done this with all of the buttons on the front of the unit. “I” think the volume knob is fine. Like most other 950 owners “I” use the front unit controls very little and in fact have a AMX control system that I loaded ever single IR code from the 950 remote control into and thus can control the 950 from my LCD color touch panel or use the 950 remote (which is almost identical to my R945 remote less the LCD display). Also since “I” watch DVD’s in almost total darkness due to front projection display I do not look at the unit much anyway and really only care mostly about the sound. That being said “I” can see the appeal for others to go with a more expensive, “better looking” unit for showing off their system. “I” do not feel the 950 is ugly by any means, but “I” do feel the 1066 is nicer looking.

In conclusion, the 950 is a great pre/pro for a great price. However I did end up getting a used 1066 for a very, very good price and it should be arriving tomorrow so “I” will get to compare, in “my” home theater the two units side by side. As mentioned by Robert, this is the best way to determine which unit sounds best to “you” in “your” environment. The 1066 does have a few features that I really like, for example, dual sub outputs, and RS232 control for my AMX system or a few of the main ones.

I will post more tomorrow after hooking up the 1066 in my system.

Stay tuned…..


------------------
-Mark
**** Digital Vortex ****
The Digital Electronic Site
www.digitalvortex.com

If the 950 is bright then it's bright. Buying amps pre/pros and speakers is all a matter of matching components properly. If you have warm speakers and amps then a bright pre/pro could make a good match. Just like a warm pre/pro like the 1066 matched with bright speakers could make a good match.

If I was considering a 950 I would be more conserned with the growing number QA issues and complaints from current owners. Everyone is trying to say things like "maybe the 950 doesn't work well with certain amps". If other pre/pros worked fine with an amp and the 950 doesn't then it's not the amp it's the 950.

If I swap out a part of my system with another peice and all of a sudden my system has a hiss. Then I'm not buying the part that caused the hiss. I should be able to swap in a new part and have equal or better sounds not worse.

From the reports in sounds and QA from current owners and for the amount of time buyers waited for the 950. It's definately not the holy grail of pre/pros. It is what it is. A $900 pre/pro. I think people really did expect a Lexicon killer with great look/feel and true qauility all for $900. Now that the 950 is on the streets it has to stand on it's own. Based on the threads I've read here and on several other boards. You really do get what you pay for.

[This message has been edited by Legairre (edited June 02, 2002).]

As far as "brightness" goes, the 950 might be a little on the bright side, but not overly so. And I am running Adcom amps, and NHT speakers. Believe me, if this unit were "harsh", this combo would certainly show it! My previous Parasound had good DAC's, but the 950 actually sounds better, at least on my Directv toslink. My CD player sounds better thru it's analog bypass mode, but it is an Adcom GDC600, which has outstanding DAC's (Adcom may build mediocre pre/pro's, but they have there D/A conversion down pat).
The knob/buttons dont bother me at all, and I use them more than most, since it sits right next to this computer, so I often adjust volume, sources etc, from the front panel.
Overall, this $900 pre/pro outperforms the Parasound setup I had previously, which I paid $2500 for (including tuner)4 yrs ago. That is probably also why the remote interface works fine for me, the Parasound used one remote to control 2 components, and was confusing at best.
Overall, a great product, especially for the price.

I am wondering if the people who use the terms "bright" or "harsh" could provide more information as to what sources those terms apply. Is it for DD/DTS movies, 2 channel music, etc. Specifically is it only for digital inputs and music? If that is the case, a smoother/warmer CD player can be used with 2-channel direct and the sound should still be smooth/warm. Digital connects are great (cheap and easy), but I didn't expect a $900 AV pre/pro to have DAC's that would make a cheap CD/DVD player sound like a high-end CD player or DAC running analog out.

I agree with John C 100 percent. I too have NHT (VT-2) speakers, and have had “bright” electronics. I would not characterize the 950 as “harsh”. I also drive a German sports sedan. Many people characterize German cars as “competent engineering accomplishments that are without a soul”. That is what I think that is what the 950 is like. I have an (ancient) Denon 3200 that I have swapped out, and to be honest, the Denon can sometimes produce sound in my system that is astonishing. The 950 does not produce the same results. It is more accurate and extended, but it cannot (in my setting) produce flute and saxophone with the same emotion as the Denon. I think even more curious is that it doesn’t generate the same ambiance and feeling of space that the Denon does on the Fifth Element dvd.

One more thing to consider is the severe limitations of all compressed source material. At the Home Theater Expo, Polk ran an excellent demonstration of SACD, and some DVD audio formats. Their demonstration clearly revealed the differences in the source material and format. It really was a bummer if you were interested in multichannel music formats.

I don't think the NHT VT-2's sound as harsh as some NHT speakers. I do think the NHT 2.9 sounds bright or (to put a positive spin on it) revealing or (to put a negative spin on it) fatiguing.

Hey RAF,

I've heard people say several times that the brightness on the 950 is just accurately producing the sound of the source, and I was wondering on what this is based? What experience are you drawing on to determine the true sound of the source? It's certainly information that I would like to add to my ability to review these two and other pre/pros down the road.

Like I said in my first review, I didn't want to get into which is more accurate becasue I don't know which is a truer represention of the source. I just thought that the 950 was bright and the 1066 was warm relative to each other. I notice this on all sources that I have tried so far.

brianca..

[This message has been edited by brianca (edited June 02, 2002).]

Will, that is interesting what you say about the VT-2's. I own some SuperZ's, and have only listened extensively to the 2.5's and 3.3's, so I admit I do not know squat about the revised NHT line.

I also am in the first half of my 40's (to put a positive spin on it), and I think listener age is much overlooked in these discussions. I doubt someone my age with normal hearing has near the ability to discriminate as someone 20 years younger. Never trust anyone over age 30 is sage advice, especially in audio concerns (why do you think vinyl made the big come back?).

Anyone with a 1066 heard any of this hiss???
Does the 950 have higher resolution dac chips than the 1066??? What difference if any would this make??

Back a few months ago the 1066 did have a noise floor problem that resulted in a hiss. Rotel stopped selling the 1066s so they could correct the problem. I haven't heard of any 1066s with hiss problem since then.

Just to be fair to the 950, I should say that Rotel did have a QA problem.

[This message has been edited by Legairre (edited June 02, 2002).]

The posts on this thread have been very interesting and informative to me - and as a result I am asking for help.

My family and I have watched a lot of movies at home (and very few in the cinema) for a number of years. After moving to DVD about 18 months ago - the timing driven by the belated availability of DVD titles - the performance upgrade is so startling that we have decided to upgrade from a 32" TV to a rear projection (Toshiba 65 inch). As a result, and also as a result of moving house with a more home-theater-friendly room available (i.e. larger: 22 x 25 with an 18-foot ceiling), I have decided to take the plunge and move from using my standard two-channel stereo to adding speakers etc. and accessing the Dolby / DTS / whatever capability of the DVDs.

Having always been a "components" chap - I gather the word today is "separates" - no other approach interests me. When I started gathering information about nine months ago, I was disappointed to see that there was very little available in the way of components unless one had a virtually unlimited budget (I don't - we established a saving plan and a defined budget for our upgrade, and have nearly completed it). I investigated the Adcoms - they appear to me to be over-priced junk with fundamental flaws such as highly audible hum and hiss. Marantz had a home theater pre-amp (I think it has been discontinued) which, although a bit better, also clearly did not meet my quality criteria. In fact, I was so disappointed by the available price/quality ratios that I put the whole upgrade project on hold (upside: by lengthening the savings period, the budget has been modestly increased). The then-available model from Rotel was better quality but, in my own opinion, poor value and a budget-stretcher at $1600 list / $1400 street. (By the way, so much, if I may say so, for the oft-stated view that one gets "more for less" in AV equipment as time goes on.)

I became aware of Outlaw through the Web and, combined with the appearance of a both better and cheaper (compared to prior Rotel offering) Rotel unit, have brought my upgrade program to, well at least the mid burner and hopefully soon the front burner. I have no desire to spend another $400 or so just to get a brand name, but on the other hand the price difference is small enough that I want to get the better, in terms of quality, of the two units: while I may upgrade other components down the line, I would expect 15 - 20 years' service out of the pre-amp / control unit.

Given my overall time frame, it really isn't a problem if I have to wait, say two months for a 950 should I choose that route.

While I know the Outlaw people will take the unit back if I'm not satisfied, no local Rotel dealer will do the same. So the ultimate test - an in-home comparison - simply and very unfortunately is not an option.

In that situation, I would like to make some observations and would greatly appreciate feedback:

1. Although my 30 years' experience with audio equipment is that pre-amps (unlike amps, or especially playback units with moving parts) will either fail under warranty or last indefinitely, I'm still concerned about the longevity of the Outlaw company's support / service. Thoughts?

2. A couple of months is OK. Based on the posts, I'm wondering if the reality is more like six months, which is NOT OK. Opinion? Is the backlog shrinking, stable, or growing?

3. A consistent theme of all the posts / reviews / etc. appears to me to be that quality control in the manufacturing of the 950 is a major problem; like American cars, the unit I actually receive could be a crap-shoot as a function of manufacturing not design. If true, this is not a product that I would want to buy. Am I being unfair to Outlaw in this regard?

4. In all of my audio purchases, I have always tried to buy the most "accurate" equipment I can afford. This word certainly has subjective elements and may even be "charged". To me, it means in particular that the equipment makes a trained human voice, from a high-quality recording, sound nearly identical to the "live" sound. For example, one of my references for auditioning speakers is "Tom's Diner" by Suzanne Vega. It also means absolutely tight bass without any boominess or exaggeration. (For reference, my musical tastes are eclectic but do not include heavy metal or "heavy" rock and roll). The posts clearly indicate that there is a sonic difference between the 950 and the Rotel, but - as even the posts themselves have acknowledged - one man's "accuracy" may - or may not - be another man's "harshness" or "brightness". Could we possibly pursue this dicussion theme further? It might (or might not) help for me to say that after an exhaustive search last year, I chose Linn Ninca speakers to upgrade my 16-year-old Cantons and, as an example, found the B&W to be a bit harsh but found Thiels to be far too warm and colored.

5. I've auditioned many home theater set-ups, and to my personal ear, all of them have been sub-par in reproducing conventional stereo recordings. Music will continue to be most of my "critical" listening, and my home situation does not allow the luxury of separate rooms / systems for home theater and music. My third-party and no doubt inadequately-informed view of the posts that laud the 950 in this regard is that all things are relative: when I read about the systems these individuals were using previously, to say that the 950 offers great stereo music sound is perhaps relative only. In this regard, good news bad news so to speak. I plan to continue to use my existing pre-amp for music. Its specs are an order of magnitude compared with either the Rotel or the 950 in terms of THD, IM, and frequency response, and while specs are one thing and listening is another, from my auditioning I believe its transparency is unmatched by sub-$2500 home theater equipment (maybe higher; I don't believe in auditioning equipment that is far beyond my budget, becuase it leaves me disappointed with what I can actually afford even though that too may be very good). Also, while perhaps just an "old fogey" in this regard, 99% of my CDs and discs were intended for conventional stereo play-back, and my auditions of multi-channel systems left me unimpressed in terms of music. SO: I really am only looking at the home theater capabilities of the 950 and the Rotel.

Other comments: (a) I couldn't care less about the tuner in the 950, I will continue to use my MacIntosh tube tuner connected to a rooftop antenna. But it occurs to me that Rotel, by not even including a tuner, is focusing more directly on my own needs. (b) The ergonomics of the remote are not very important to me. I will either learn to master it, or replace it with an aftermarket product. (c) Quality of control knobs and switches is a concern. Its not just a matter of whether or not you like the feel; from the posts on the 950 controls, I have to wonder how long they will last (bear in mind that my current pre-amp is 18 years old, therefore has no remote, and the [very high quality] controls have had to endure thousands of actions).

Current equipment:

Crown Straight Line Two pre-amp (audio only, no video capability)
2 x Crown DC300 amps (190 watts RMS / channel), 1 is currently not in use but excellent condition (was used for bi-amping during my "wild and crazy" years)
MacIntosh MR71 tube tuner
Denon DP-3000 direct drive turntable with SME Type III-Improved silicon-damped tone-arm
Samsung Model 711 DVD/CD player (I hate changers)
Panasonic PV-4660 VCR (used only for occasionally re-playing VCRs from our modest tape library, and occasionally taping NFL games)
Linn Ninka floor-standing main speakers

In the first upgrade phase, I will add a Linn center speaker and a good-quality active sub-woofer. Rear speakers will have to wait a year or so for budget recovery.

Gentlemen, your thoughts / suggestions?

In all fairness, brightness can be looked at as harsh or detailed, and warm can be looked at as smooth or muddled. Here is a good example of where warm systems can't get the detail: Listen to a piece with high piano notes and a bright system will have a shrill crisp sound, which some will claim is harsh but if anyone has ever played a piano they will attest to the fact that the higher keys are indeed a bit on the edgy side when struck. This can also be stated as RAF said, very revealing of the source. A warm system will smooth over the edge part, but that also means, whether the sound improves is subjective, a warm system lacks as much detail as a bright system. The other side argues, Who cares? I can't enjoy music when my ears are bleeding. So it goes both ways. For home theater I will never get rid of my Klipsch because I believe that detail and accuracy are the most important part of recreating surround sound. For music I actually prefer a warm sound because it is less fatiguing and richer, and I have Diva's for that. I just thought I should help people who are getting the idea that warm is considered ultimately better. Its a personal choice and one person's harsh or muddled is another person's detailed or smooth. I am not questioning anybody's opinion on what they believe sounds harsh, I am only trying to show the other side of the coin.

Anyone care to count how many run on and fragmented sentences I just used? Its too late to care.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited June 03, 2002).]

Good post Jed and I complete agree.

I still am clueless on which way to go.

I have a DC-1 that I'm selling. I'm using the money to buy a 950 or a 1066. Now being used to Lexicon and Presets for every format and sound quality.


Which unit is going to yield a result overall better than that of a DC-1.


I'm selling the unit because it is a bit outdated and I want more processing power.

Now I'm leaning towards The Rotel because you can have custom settings, but like sounds in movies to be a bit bright.

So all in all which direction should I go? Also what is going to beat a DC-1 and Dc-2?

Or am I better to cancel my sale of the DC-1?

man oh man, the Silver Rotel RSP-1066 that I picked up last sat was dead, it wouldn't turn on, the only sound it is making is the relay clicking noise when I turn off the machine. Luckily, I got it from a Rotel dealer that is only 20mins away from, I think it is the same dealer that Legairre from here got his. I am using the store display unit (black) right now, which has the older software and no DD ex logo. So far, I am very happy with the sound, I upgraded from a lexicon Cp-3+ to this, which I traded in and got close to nothing for it. I hope the store will get their new shipment in soon.

PS: I think the store still has an open blackone in stock that allegedly someone brought it but returned it and got the Krell pre/pro instead. Should I get this black one instead and forget about the silver one?

If anyone wants to sell their 1066 or trade for a 950+cash then let me know. Email to powerserge1@Juno.com.

Regarding the brightness of the 950, like i mentionned the 950 is not bright but just a little edgy. My ATI 1502 amp and Monitor Audio Silver speakers combine for a very revealing combo and when you throw the 950 into the mix, MUSIC playback takes on an edgy side. This is why in my system i would prefer the Rotel.

Vise versa, if someone has a nice smooth layed back amp/speakers then i guarantee the 950 is a keeper for a system such as this. Rather than an "edgy" or "bright" end result then as RAF mentionned you will have well balanced, non fatiguing accurate sound.

[This message has been edited by power (edited June 03, 2002).]

Richard, as long as you can use the dealers 1066 I would wait for the color you want. No reason to compromise your preference of the silver 1066 just to get DD EX a few weeks early, or at least that's my opinion.

Richard,
Sorry to hear about your 1066. If you got yours in Northhampton(not sure if I'm allowed to mention names here) then we did get ours from the same dealer. I'm happy to say mine works fine, but I sorry to hear about yours.

If I were you I'd wait for the color I want.

Let's see...Rotel had a hiss problem, stopped selling it to fix it but Outlaw continues to ship???? knowing there's a hiss problem??
Are people making too much of this bright/warm thing. Is there really that great a difference between these two pieces of equipment??other than the cost.

While most people in their 40's can't hear 20 khz tones and many can't hear 16 khz or 14 khz tones, I think most in their 40's can hear differences in speakers and electronics, and that includes the area of harshness. Some frequencies where harshness (or shrillness or fatique) is apparent is in the hearing range of most people in their 40's. Also sometimes fatique manifests itself as an ultra-small "sweet spot", where anything outside of that sweet spot sounds fatiquing.

As a point of reference, the NHT 2.9 suffers from an ultra-small sweet spot, leading to harshness, more than the NHT VT-2 does, in my own personal opinion.

Well, count me among those who could not wait any longer. My old pre/pro had almost completely thrown out it's digital preamp stage and I couldn't stand it any longer. The wife said, "Just whatever you do, buy something else before it goes in to get fixed". Who was I to say no.

Let me just say that after several hours of installation and setup, I am EXTREMELY happy with the Rotel. It is very quiet (no hiss) and has a lot of really nice features. Since I never got a chance to hear a 950 (although a local enthusiast did offer: thanks again Phil) I can only offer my opinion on the 1066 by itself.

My comparison is based on the following equipment for those of you who are interested:

NAD T761 receiver as pre/pro and rear channel amp
ADCOM 5503 200 x 3 amp
NAD 512 CD (love it's DAC's)
Toshiba 2700 DVD changer
Sony T60 Directivo
Energy 5.1e mains, 3.1e rears, EPS12 sup and EC100 center.

There is a huge difference in movies. More detail, better sonic placement, substantial improvement in quantity and quality of bass. Prologic II does a fine job on my DSS's digi out. Stereo performance is very good. A little more laid back on the top end than the NAD, but extremly big soundstage and very listenable.

I won't blather on anymore since this is the Outlaw's site, but my point being that I'm sure the 950 will be a fine piece after it goes through it's QC growing pains and supply shortage problems. Unfortunately, I couldn't continue to wait for it to mature.

I am keenly looking at more amplification though and the Outlaw stuff is high on the list.

The initial Rotel 1066 that I heard had a noise level problem which was noticable DURING playback. They have since fixed that problem. The newest 1066 had almost identical hiss, none from >4 inches from speaker fabric, to the 950, as we demonstrated in the local Rotel dealer's showroom.

------------------
Take Care,
merc

Well, I think I am going to return my 950 to Outlaw. Not that there is anything wrong with it BUT I don't think I can live with my pet peeves about it.. I am off to get a 1066.

I'm Still an Outlaw, I have my 750 Amp. LOL

Instead of me returning my 950 to Outlaw, if anyone here is interested in BUYING my 950 (what a way of getting ahead in the line), feel free to email me jeffw@adelphia.net and I will give you details.

Jeff

I think its very cool of the Outlaws to allow discussions of competitors products to take place in their forums - along with overtly critical posts of their products etc.

In fact this is about the only online forum you ARE allowed to say something overtly negative about the 950 without fear of being kicked out, or getting your posting or thread deleated.

How ironic is it that the only free speach to be had on the net regarding Outlaw Audio is on their own corporate web site, not some of the general HT discussion boards (most notoriously HTF).

Kudos to Outlaw for realizing that free speech IS a good and powerful thing!!!

Yes. HTF certainly could learn from the Outlaw forum. I too give a big Thumbs Up to the Outlaw forum! Kudos to this forum, for allowing the responsible exercise of free speech.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited June 05, 2002).]

Oh my gosh... I'm actually agreeing with Will and HT Crazed on their stated forum speech issue. Thanks Outlaw!!!

Maybe I should post the single posted question, that got me suspended from that other forum, to see what happens here...?

BTW, my 950 is still going strong and operating perfectly. I feel very bad for those folks who are having hiss or other problems. I really wish I could figure out how to solve their problems so that they too could enjoy their 950 as much as I'm enjoying mine.

------------------
Take Care,
merc

Go for it!

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Merc, I agree with your sentiments totally. Also, like a car wreck, fill our morbid curiosity and ask the question!!!

If anyone has read Mark Knight's review at the HTF it should make you feel pretty secure in the 950 as long as they fix the hiss problem. In his opinion the main difference is upgradeability, not really the sound. With Evan's and Patrick's comparison of the 950 and the Anthem, Mark's and the majority of other 1066 owners comparison, and even Gene's comparison with the MC-12 I would say that if the Outlaws can clean up the hiss then they have really hit a home run.

Add me to the list of people that have to congratulate the Outlaws for allowing open comments on their site. Some sites censor anything negative about any Outlaw product, but not this one.

Here's to the Outlaws for runnig their forum in an open and fair manner.

Add me to the list of people who appreciate Outlaw's apparent commitment to the free expression of ideas. I've noticed that on some other forums messages or even whole threads are deleted citing the misbehavior of the participants. I can understand locking threads to calm heated tempers but the deletion of the expression of ideas and opinions is just so suprising to me.

In this forum, I have seen the free expression of ideas. Maybe I haven't been around long enough but I have never seen anyone removed or any thread deleted.

So I also just want to say thank you to Outlaw for this additional service that they provide.

'Tis one of the reasons I never registered for *cough* HTF...

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I have consistently been pleased with the free discourse that takes place here, particularly when it delves into competing products while remaining civil and generally productive. It's been sort of fun to see some of the notable participants in the 950 debates at HTF drop in here, especially since I think it has helped the discussions here.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I would agree that the Outlaw forum is truly remarkable. It seems like the only board with absolute freedom, ie. no locks, but it also seems like the most civil forums of all. I always enjoyed reading this board before I became a Gunslinger and its even better participating. Thanks Outlaw and all you fellow gunslingers for keeping this forum going.

I think it's just human nature that the more you police people, the more they need policing...

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I don't feel that my 950 is 'bright', or 'harsh' in the least. As previously stated by others, I would describe it with terms like 'accurate', and 'detailed'. Analog sources through the 950 don't sound any different than they do if I plug them straight into the power amps. Using the analog outputs of my DVD player makes everything sound significantly 'blurred' compared to using the digital out and the DAC in the 950.

I don't understand how the 950 can pass signals so true to their source, yet still be considered 'bright' or 'harsh'? Do people really want a pre-amp that's going to 'blur' the source material?

Am I missing something here?

- Mike

Off topic I know, but how do you like this amp? I tried for a while to find one, only to discover they weren't made for very long, and they were discontinued.

- Mike

Mike, I completely agree with what you are saying. I still think the 950 is pretty much neutral in that it doesn't add much "color" to the sound one way or the other. It is very revealing, but not what I would call "bright" in my opinion.



Well, I for one, are going to have to disagree with you. The 1066 looks fine, but so does the 950. I like the volume knob on the 950 over the one on the Rotel- you can hardly turn it. The buttons on both are ok IMO. As far as getting what you pay for, I believe the 950 would sell for about what the 1066 sells for if it were offered at the local B&M- in the $1275.00- 1350.00 range would be my guess. Maybe more as it does have a tuner and some other features not available on the 1066. I have listened to the Rotel a couple of times now, it find it to be a really nice sounding product. After hearing it described as sounding warm,I was surprised to find it to be somewhat bright to me (coupled to a Rotel amp, DVD player and B&W CDM9's)and maybe slightly lacking in detail. In reality, I would probably have a hard time telling the difference between the two if I were blindfolded unless I spent a lot of time with them. (I'm referring to 2 channel music here). Like Merc said, the other equipment in the chain plays a big part also.
The biggest problem the Outlaw's have today is they can't get product fast enough to satisy the demand. And that seems to be about their only real problem. So- if you are going to have problems- that's a pretty good one to have.
And I'm glad we have this place to agree to disagree if we feel the need.

I've made that statement on the HTF and I agree that the Outlaw is not bright. I own and have owned bright equipment and I think the outlaw is dead on neutral. I think the majority of the people who a/b ed them liked the Rotel sound to begin with so it should come to no surprise that they found the Outlaws bright since (based on my experience with other Rotel pieces) Rotel is a very warm unit to begin with. Whatever it is, I strongly disagree about it being harsh.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited June 07, 2002).]

My sacrilegious opinion is that *some* people prefer the Rotel simply because it's more expensive, and that's how they justify the higher cost to themselves...

My opinion!

I know that some folks have simply stated that they feel the 950 is bright, but the majority of the "bright" comments that I've actually read seem to have been made in the connotation of "brighter than the Rotel". Considering that to my ears the 950 sounds very neutral, I just read such comments as the Rotel is Warm compared to the Outlaws Neutral and that those folks prefer a Warm sound.

To each their own.

------------------
pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

IMO, the 950 is not bright but is detailed and can be revealing if used with other revealing gear. Comparatively, the Rotel is warmer, but not so warm as the Ref 30 which in my opinion is somewhat veiled sounding.

When the Canadian government in conjuction with API tested the sound that most folks preferred, they found the sound most people liked best was of a slightly elevated midrange/upper midrange with a slightly rolled off treble. This sonic signature is not the most accurate, flat sounding audio but does sound pleasant and somewhat warm. Generally, tubed gear also tends to do this as well.

When folks compare the Rotel to the 950, IMO, they are probably choosing this warmer sonic signature to the more accurate detailed sonics of the 950... then again, maybe not???

------------------
Take Care,
merc

Quote:
"If anyone has read Mark Knight's review at the HTF it should make you feel pretty secure in the 950 as long as they fix the hiss problem. In his opinion the main difference is upgradeability, not really the sound."

Yep, the 950 is one great sounding piece of HT gear and believe me, I would be keeping the 950 in my system had I not stumbled onto a 1066 for only a couple dollars more then the 950 as I am unemployed and have to really make my HT dollar stretch these days until I get my own business started and have money coming in again.

My 950 did not have a big problem with hiss but it was on the same level as my Sherwood Newcastle R945 and both had a higher hiss level then the 1066… but again you had to be up at the speaker to hear the hiss and I could not here any hiss once I moved away from the speaker. I did speak with the Outlaws today (nice bunch of guys) and it does seem like they have fixed the “hiss” problem. It would be nice to compare another 950 with the fix applied to the 1066 but alas my 30 days are up and shipping the unit back to the Outlaws cost money… which, like I said I have to watch closely these days.

Quote:
“My sacrilegious opinion is that *some* people prefer the Rotel simply because it's more expensive, and that's how they justify the higher cost to themselves...”

Since my 1066 was only a few dollars more then the 950, I can say for sure I was not swayed but this theory at all. As my review over at the HTF states”,

“Sound:..... OK then, onto the most important part, the sound: Both units sound very, very good and sound almost identical, with the Outlaw sounding a bit “brighter” then the 1066. The 950 might also have a bit more detail (my guess would be because of the DAC’s) but after switching back and for between the two units in 2-channel stereo using the digital output from the CD changer, I could not discern much difference if any. With 5.1/7.1, I also could not tell between the two units except with Gladiator in DTS-EX mode, it seemed a little “brighter” with the 950. Both units blow me away when watching all my favorite demo scenes from the best DVD’s. I can tell you it is not much fun switching cables back and fourth between them and trying to listen very closely to each unit while remembering the previous ones sound. I like the sound of both units and I think just about anyone would agree they both sound very good.”

I really do not think I could tell the two units apart in a double blind test with most source material. And I put the “brighter” in “” because I am not convinced myself that it is really brighter… it could just be that the unit is more accurate and passes the source signal more accurately making it sound to some ears “brighter” and/or the DAC's could be playing apart in this also.

Bottom line… You just can not go wrong with the 950 for the price the Outlaws are offering it for…. period.

That said… I really do love the Rotel 1066 (I will have both reviews and the comparison review of them on my web site once it is back up and running) and I must say, it is very cool of the Outlaws to let threads like this thrive on there own site. My glass (filled with beer of course) is lifted to them!

------------------
-Mark
**** Digital Vortex ****
The Digital Electronic Site
www.digitalvortex.com

I got tired of waiting(and I only waited for 2 months) The 1066 is here now and available. When you decide that you want to upgrade your system...you don't want to wait months on a list. As of 6/10 the woman in the office "hadn't heard a thing" about more 950's coming in.
I don't hear any hiss with the 1066 so I'm wondering if it has to do with set-up,other equip etc. As far as bright vs warm, whatever is on the disk is reproduced - accurately I feel. Some stuff sounds bright even harsh and good recordings sound great. I like haveing the treble/bass knobs to fine tune the sound of each disk.
I'm sure the 950's fine.....it's just not available.

Merc, interested study in Canada that you mention. The "temperature" of sound people seem to prefer definitely does vary by nationality and even race.

I've heard that Asian countries tend to prefer their music on the bright side while Americans largely (IMO) prefer the warmer and fuller sound. And the Brits seem to enjoy a dryer more analytical sound.

As I've spent more time with the 950, the edginess and brightness have receded and I'm starting to agree that the 950 is fairly neutral afterall, though still leaving out ambience, room acoustics, etc that I know is present in the source material. I think an infusion of warmth would be helpful there.

When I get more space I'll probably experiment with the Sony PT900 (or whatever model it is) to handle 2 channel duties. If the sony is as good as some say, this combo should substantially beat the Rotel soundwise for about the same price. The sound of the 950 for DD and DTS already is excellent IMO.

Hi
I can't wait for 950 any longer, it's been too long. Do you guys know where I can buy Rotel RSP1066 for $1250-1300 within 2 hours drive from Los Angeles? Thanks,

Same issue. Anyone know of a Rotel dealer that will ship. Only one dealer (ListenUp) in all of Colorado. I'm fed up with them, won't buy one there. Went by today to give them another chance. They locked their doors and left AT LEAST 30 minutes before their posted closing time. Not the kind of 'local service' I want for my money.

[This message has been edited by bigmac (edited June 16, 2002).]

Rotel has pretty much the opposite business model of Outlaw. Rotel dealers are pretty much given a fifedom in their own city. No competition from other dealers in proximity and no competition from the Internet (not allowed).

Though I've had some very good Rotel dealers (like in Seattle and San Diego) now that I lived in smaller cities they can act quite arrogant and unaccomodating. My local dealer allows for no more than a 3 day in house demo (absolutely worthless) and only sells the 1066 at full retail.

Though I'll likely go the 1066 route myself, I sure wish their business model was more like Outlaws. No middleman and 30 days in home to try.

Wow! Someone else has Ohm F,s. Ive got a pair now that needs repair and another Ohm F upgrades to a Walsh 5 with new cabinet venting etc and the ability to play much louder. They are power hungrey too? How does your F,s work as a surround. Are they high enough or do you have them elevated. John at Ohm wants me to trade in my old F's for a Walsh 100 or 200/300 whatever and have the tweeter mounted up . Said they have had good sucess this way as a surround speaker. I too am on the waiting list for the 950, but, I am very impessed with the 1066. Do you know any on-line dealer offering these at a good price/ like $1300? Thanks again! As they say at Ohm.. Good listening!

Everett, Rotel doesn't allow sales of their products online and they are really good at enforcing it. Just take a look at HT's post above yours and you will understand. You can always buy used Rotel products online like I did but finding the 1066 may take a while going that route.

Can someone explain the Bass Mgt on the 1066 vs the 950, a little more clearly?

Does the 1066 have the simple capability to let the L&R be "large" i.e. full range, and the Center + surrounds have the low freq. routed to the Sub?

Does this cause the so-called double bass when doing so?

On the Outlaw does this set up cause the bass to be repeated on the L+R and the Sub?

In the Rotel manual - available at their site - it states the sub has three modes: off, on, max that mean basicly no LFE/SUB, 'normal' LFE/SUB or double bass LFE/SUB, so all the basses (HEH) are covered.

The 1066 has IMO better bass management except (1) no analog filters on the 5.1 inputs and (2) no triple xover. I would use neither, but some setups might benefit.

Charlie