Hi Folks,

Beta Tester #3 signing in. I have a lengthy report to share, that I'll have to enter in bits because I do have a day job! I'll also answer any questions I can about the 950 and the beta process.

Yes, you're going to want to buy this piece. It's worth the wait.

First, let me tell you how this all started...

GOT A CALL

Sometime back in October, I got a call from Peter at Outlaw saying that I had been selected as one of the possible beta testers - if I agreed to their non-disclosure rules. Sure! (I didn't realize at the time I was talking to Peter Tribeman, one of the Outlaw principals.)

He said in reviewing my beta application, my system was "unremarkable", but two things stuck out. First, that we host regular movie night get-togethers with our friends, and second, that I lived just one town over from where he was. He said he'd like to come over to hear it when we got it installed. Sure!

I asked what they expected the differences to be between the beta unit and the finished product. The biggest thing would be that there wouldn't be a manual for it. He also said something about the remote not being ready.

I asked if he'd heard the early production model. He hadn't, but said that the specs they got back were incredible and were better than they expected.

The next day I called Scott and left my shipping information. He said I'd probably get the unit by Thanksgiving.

On November 26th, we had our first child and I spent a week with Mom and baby at the hospital. I hadn't gotten the 950 yet, and was worried that it was sitting out on our front steps. We got home and there was no box from Outlaw. I waited another week, and then got worried that maybe since nobody was home, it had either been stolen or had been returned to Outlaw. Sent mail to Scott and he said it hadn't shipped yet. Later, I got a call from Peter and he mentioned that the hardware was ready, but some software challenges were holding them back.

With everyone else I got the Outlaw mail in December saying that everyone on the reservation list was getting a PCA cable for their patience. I sent mail to Scott and said I was being patient waiting for my beta unit. He said we'd be getting the cables too. Cool!

Every time the Outlaws have mentioned a shipping date, I've calculated how long I would have to do the beta test. Obviously it's going to be short, so I decided to write up a test plan. I started with the list from the Favorite Demos saloon. Since the other Outlaws have these disks and are familiar with them, I thought my comments might make more sense if I used the same reference disks.

IT ARRIVES!

After weeks of waiting for the DHL truck to arrive, we got a call from Peter saying he had a unit and I could have it that night if I wanted. I drove over to his place, met him and his wife, and picked up my new charge. We plugged it in at Peter's house just to make sure it worked - but we didn't connect it to anything. While we were talking, the manufacturer in Malaysia called to discuss something. It sounded like they were many overseas calls happening at this late date.

I went home and started plugging things in. Around 11:00 that night, Peter called and asked how it was going. He said he somehow thought I might still be up playing with it. At that point I was mostly connected, but I was having a problem with one of the rear speakers not working. Turns out it was my fault - one of the wires had come undone when I was moving things around on my equipment shelf.

MY UNREMARKABLE SYSTEM

List price on this setup was around $16.5k. I think it's a great system!

Sony DVP-S7700 DVD player
Sony VCR
Pioneer CD changer (not used for this test - I prefer the sound from the DVD player.)
Mitsubishi VS-7083 70" RPTV

Main Speakers: Snell C/IV (34-33kHz) - biwired with Monster Original, powered by an AudioSource AmpThree at 2x150 watts.

Center Speaker: Snell HCC-1800 (80-20kHz) Monster Original, powered by one channel of AudioSource AmpThree at 150 watts (My goal is to eventually power the front three speakers with a Bryston 6B-ST amplifier. Snell told me they used Bryston 4B-NRB as their reference amp when designing the C/IV's, and Bryston told me they used to have some Snells in their listening room, so I expect this to be a great combination.)

Surround Speakers: Snell J/III (48-20kHz) 14 gauge generic in-wall speaker wire, powered by my old Yamaha RX-V1070 receiver's main pre-outs at 2x110 watts..

Rear Center: Boston Acoustics HD-7 - temporarily used as center surround for some 6-channel testing, with generic 16 gauge speaker wire, powered by the other channel of the AmpThree at 150 watts.

Subwoofer: M&K MX-100 subwoofer (18-125Hz, 200 watt, 2x12") - with a custom-made interconnect
Salamander rack and Salamander amp stand
Power - dedicated 15 amp circuit for audio equipment. Intermatic whole-house surge suppressor wired in at the circuit box.
Room - 17' wide, 19' long, tall 18' ceiling. Soft carpeting and couches, no drapes.

TESTING PROCEDURES

Sorry, no single or double-blind testing. I set up each test and then switched back and forth. Sometimes my wife listened with me, sometimes not.

I always let the whole system warm up for an hour before doing any critical listening. I don't know that it really improves the sound noticeably, but I'm sure it doesn't hurt.

At times I used the Avia test disk and Radio Shack SPL meter (slow mode, C weighting). 0dB on the 950 volume scale was dead-on at 85 dB. This is actually much louder than we typicially listen to music or movies, so I did most of the tests around -30dB.

(to be continued...)

Congrats, Jeff! I look forward to the rest of your report.

------------------
Gonk

Does Outlaw allow its beta testers to discuss beta testing in a public forum? If so it is very unusual. Usually beta testers are required to sign an NDA and breach of it is pretty serious.

------------------
Nigel Pond
SMR Home Theatre
SMR Forums
SMR Group
HighFidelityReview

BETA UNIT 2

My unit is identified with stickers on the back as:
PrePro #2 12/31/01
SW 2.0 DSPV17 1/28/02

Peter told me that a number of additional software changes were made after my unit was built. That doesn't surprise me, since nearly everything that I eventually reported as a bug they told me had already been fixed. In one case, Peter copied me on mail between Outlaw and the manufacturer discussing changes to the S-Video circuitry - and the mail included a full-screen photo of the board in question.

FM PERFORMANCE

Originally, I had hoped that the 950 would not have a built-in tuner, since I wanted to buy my own. Then when I learned that Outlaw was including one, I hoped that it would have RDS (Radio Data Service) like the European 1050 has. Nope. Just a standard AM/FM tuner.

Unfortunately, my beta unit had a faulty tuner in it and Peter told me not do any listening tests with it.

I was able to tune in stations, but couldn't do any critical listening. I also didn't have the right remote, so I couldn't easily move through the presets. The 950 doesn't have a signal-strength meter, so I couldn't really compare its sensitivity to the Yamaha's. I'll trust the specs when they come out.

One nice feature is that you can use the FM Mode button to switch to mono if the reception is noisy, and then you can store the station as stereo or mono.

Rats - my notes don't say how many presets there are.... I think it was 32 total, divided however you want between AM and FM.

ZONE 2 USABILITY

We built our house almost three years ago and I took advantage of the open walls to run 1500' of 14 gauge speaker wire throughout the house. Some rooms got speaker jacks, and others have in-wall or in-ceiling speakers. All the speaker wiring goes to an 8-way distribution box in the basement.

In my setup, each room has its own volume control. As such, I don't want to change the volume at the source. I want to set it to a maximum level, and then attenuate the volume locally using the in-wall controls.

The main point to having a Zone 2 is so that it can play another source than what's on in the primary zone. In my old system, I first ran off the B speaker connections - so the whole house listened to the same thing. Then I got a separate amp and fed it the output from the Record-Out jacks. This was much better, although you still had to power up the receiver and turn down the volume of the Zone 1 speakers.

With the 950, I connected my amps to the proper Zone 2 outputs. I immediately ran into a problem because there was no volume. I rechecked my connections and then gradually raised the Zone 2 volume until it sounded right. Hmm, 0dB in Zone 2 equals -30db in Zone 1??? It turns out that the impedence-matching circuit in my distribution box was cutting the power. When I wired up Zone 2 output to my main speakers, I saw that the 950 was working as it should.

One interesting thing is that if you are using Zone 2, and then turn off the 950, Zone 2 still works. When I say "turn off" I really mean to put the unit into standby mode by pressing the front power button or by pressing "Off" on the remote. To turn off Zone 2, you have to use the menu system (either on-screen or front-panel.)

REMOTE CONTROL

The official remote wasn't ready, so I have a remote that someone has programmed specifically for this beta test. Little paper labels indicate the buttons they remapped.

I read that the real remote is based on Home Theater Master SL-9000. This remote is available online for around $90 and seems to get good reviews.

So, I couldn't test the macros, range, or learning capabilities. Bummer.

On the remote they gave me, you turn the 950 on by pressing the input you want to use. Press "DVD" and the 950 turns on and selects the DVD input, with the surround mode you last used and with the volume you last used.

Check the newsletter; the testers have been released from their NDA as apparently the official beta testing is complete.


------------------
Gonk

Nigel,

Outlaw Audio officially released the beta testers from their NDA last night. Interesting enough ... right after I posted the newsletter everywhere I could think of!



------------------
pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

Hey Nigel - I was bound by a non-disclosure agreement until Peter called me last night. He said that Robert Fowkes over in the Home Theater Forum was going to be the first to post something, and after that I was free to give my impressions.

I think tester #4 just received a unit Sunday or Monday of this week, so I wouldn't expect anything from him/her just yet.


GENERAL COMMENTS

- no switched outlets
My AudioSource amps have an auto-on/off function, but no 12v triggers. I found that if the volume is too low, the amps shut themselves off. Oh well. I guess that's what they're supposed to do.

I don't want to leave them on all the time, so I'm going to have to get a switched power strip.

- pseudo analog test
My Sony DVP-S7700 DVD player has both analog and digital (coaxial) outputs. I connected both to the 950 for testing. I told the 950 that DVD input was on Coaxial 1, and that CD input was Analog. Then I used the remote to switch back and forth. Neither my wife nor I could hear any difference between these.

I'll have to buy a phono preamp so I can test a real analog signal. I haven't listened to a record in at least five years, so it wasn't a priority to me.

- display readability
I like the two-line display. It is easily readable from 10' across the room. I miss the LED on the volume control like my Yamaha had, but I understand the advantage of this type. The volume control is linear, so it's easy to set any exact volume level you want. With my Yamaha, I could only use part of the dial - from 7:00 up to 11:00 or so.

I think everything in the on-screen display is mirrored on the front panel. That's important if you don't want the 950 to do any video switching for you.

The display can be dimmed by 50%, which looks better to me, even in daylight.

- documentation
I'm a tech writer, so unlike most people I like to RTFM before installing something. But obviously I was able to set up the system without a manual.

Because Peter had told me I wouldn't get a manual, I printed the one from the 1050, thinking it would help if I got into trouble. I forgot that I had it, and never used it.

I found a few things that I thought were bugs, but that turned out to be features. I suggested that these would be good to mention in the manual.

- logo/button
Didn't Ben Franklin say, "in the dark, all audio components are grey?" The logo isn't as big as I thought it would be. I really got so involved with the awesome performance of the unit that the logo (and the whole equipment rack) became invisible.

And here's something - my beta unit actually has a BLACK button! (I wonder if I could swap it when I get my production unit??)

- noise level
Initially, I had a problem with hum, but it went away when I put cheater plugs on the AudionSource amps to bypass the ground connection. Two plugs at 99 cents from the local hardware store and the hum totally disappeared.

I'll do a test tonight for crosstalk and will report back tomorrow...


- headphone
As we saw in the alpha pictures, there's no headphone jack. The wife and I both have Sennheiser HD-580's that we use at work, so we are fond of good headphone sound. But why bother in the home theater room when we have the full speaker setup?

I think that people going with separates are expected to buy a separate headphone amp. Even the lo-fi cordless headphones we gave my father a few years ago need line-level outputs.

There's no Dolby Headphone processing.

- DSPs and tone controls

Last year, I voted to keep the the DSPs. I used to use the Jazz Club setting on my Yamaha once in a while. Oh well.

You can adjust the Bass and Treble by... rats, forgot to write it down... something like +/- 6 dB.

There's no balance control, but you can raise or lower each speaker's relative volume.

- naming inputs and associating surround modes with them
In college, I had a JVC receiver that called the CD input "DAD," for Digital Audio Disk. On my Yamaha, I had to connect the DVD player to "Tape2/VCR 2." On my Mitsubishi TV, the cable signal displays on the screen as "Antenna A." And, before I got an external amp (connected to "Tape 1 Out"), when we listened to anything in Zone 2 we had to remember to turn off the surround modes, because there was no center channel. This all lead to low SAF when I had to explain multiple mappings and steps to watch a movie.

With the 950, I want to select "DVD" and have it automatically use the proper surround mode. Yes! It works. Each input can have a different processing applied to it, and this is remembered when you turn the unit off.

What can't it do? I can't rename the inputs. So I can't change Video 1 to Game, Video 2 to Baby Monitor, etc.

- video quality
Unfortunately, my beta unit had a problem with the S-Video output. I considered this my first big find during beta, only to find out that manufacturing had already discovered the hardware problem and corrected it, but hadn't told Outlaw yet. Scott couldn't reproduce the problem, so obviously it has been fixed in later units.

- bass management
The 950 offers a hard-set analog bass management option for folks using the 5.1 analog inputs. I don't have DVD-A or SACD, so I couldn't test this yet. 80 Hz seems like a good compromise point, although it wouldn't be ideal for me.

I *really* like the triple crossover! My surround speakers are rated down to 48Hz, which was overkill for Dolby Pro Logic with its limited bandwidth of 100Hz- 7kHz. Now I have set a crossover for them at 60 Hz. I also used this feature to set my center to 80 Hz, and my mains to 40 Hz.The sub obviously gets everything below those crossover points.

An interesting feature (that I initially thought was a bug) is that if you set your speaker to "large", you can still set a crossover. In this case, the bass below the crossover point is still sent to the sub, but it isn't removed from the primary speaker.

You can also turn the sub off if you have all large, full-range speakers. If you do that, I don't know if it re-integrates the .1 signal back into the speakers...? Someone else will have to test that, or we have to wait for the manual. My big Snells go pretty low (rated for 34dB), but not down into sub territory.

The triple crossover works amazingly well. Each channel now seems more complete than ever before. Running through the test sweeps on the Avia disk really shows how seamless the crossover is. Wow! This feature sold me on the product.

- future proof?
Compared to the price of upgrades on some processors, you could buy this, wait a couple of years, then buy the high-end Outlaw processor and give this one away. I think you'd still end up ahead.

With the 950 in place, the processor is no longer the weakest link in my system. Looking at my own upgrade path, I want the Bryston 6B-ST I've been pining for, then a satellite dish to replace our lousy cable service, and then a new HDTV. After that, I'll need a DVD player with progressive-scan output and either SACD or DVD-A. The 950 can handle any of those upgrades. I was glad to read in the forum that the 950's component switching could handle HDTV signals.

Downloadable upgrades would have been nice, but they did say they could put out fixes on a new eprom. That's better than what I have now!

The 950 is future-proof if the future is defined as only 5-10 years away.

- SAF

My wife and I were friends for almost a year before we started dating. One of the first things we did as friends was to go shopping for some real speakers to replace her college setup. She ended up with Definitive Technology BP8's, which she later upgraded to BP10's, and then to the BP30's we have now. She loves that bipolar sound where I prefer my more precise Snells. The point is, she's got good ears, but they are different than
mine.

Her take on this new piece is that of course the new surround modes are great. But listening to straight stereo, she hasn't really listened enough to notice much difference. Because of the nest of wires, it's difficult to compare the old and new setups since I couldn't immediately switch back and forth. The old setup sounded great, and the new one still sounds great. Continued listening will probably improve her impressions as we notice new things in our favorite songs.

One very important thing about getting the 950 is that we can finally move the Yamaha upstairs to replace a Sony receiver that died a year ago. The upstairs "zone 3," where the BP30's are, has been music-less for a year. Being able to do this will improve our overall enjoyment level more than getting DD and DTS down in the home theater.

more later...

Jeff

Great stuff - keep it coming!

>- noise level
Initially, I had a problem with hum, but it went away when I put cheater plugs on the AudionSource amps to bypass the ground connection. Two plugs at 99 cents from the local hardware store and the hum totally disappeared.<

You should be very careful when mucking around with ground connections -- they are there for a reason. Rather than resorting to cheater plugs, wouldn't you be better of trying to track down the source of the hum? -- in my experience it's usually related to cable TV grounding: http://smr-home-theatre.org/Ground-Loops/



------------------
Nigel Pond
SMR Home Theatre
SMR Forums
SMR Group
HighFidelityReview

Thanks, Nigel. I will revisit out the grounding situation later. I was just in a hurry to get it working. I didn't know how long the beta would last and I needed to get started right away.

TEST DISKS AND OPINIONS
I've been busy cueing up scenes from our DVD library, playing everything from Jurassic Park to that free Kenwood sample disk. I even have a bunch of disks still in the shrink wrap, because I've been waiting for the 950 to play them. I can finally unwrap my Jaws (dts version) disk!

The 950 has a theater re-equalization feature that is supposed to do the same thing as THX - but different enough so they don't have to pay royalties or worry about getting sued. I didn't play with it much. I turned it on, noticed that things sounded a little flatter, and didn't try it again. I also tried the night-mode compression settings, just to make sure they were working.

Every movie I played sounded better than it ever has before. Now, I know that comparing DD or DTS to a ProLogic system is going to give you a predictable result. At times it was hard for me to say what made the experience so much better - the software or the hardware. Remember that Outlaw didn't invent their own DD or DD-EX decoding - they get that software and those algorithms direct from Dolby. With the 950, everything sounded like it was supposed to, so I'd have to say everything was decoded flawlessly.

And that's what I expect a great pre-pro to do - decode the soundtracks correctly and don't add any junk!


CONCLUSIONS

Will I buy this unit? No. But that's a trick question - Outlaw is offering us new production units at a special price. They don't want these not-perfect units to still be floating around after the test.

Will I buy the new unit? YES!

You often hear reviewers talking about the coloration of a component - is it warm, cool, forward, etc? Well, to sum it up, it just sounds better.

Better because:
- I hear more details in the music and movies
- the sub is better integrated with the other speakers
- the DD and DTS processing is amazing compared with my ProLogic system
- ProLogic II is magic - by adjusting the parameters, you can make the system sound more forward or laid back, and you can widen or shrink the center stage

So I would say the 950 doesn't have any sonic characteristics, but it makes the rest of my system sound better.

One anecdote to share - during testing I was playing a test sweep from the Avia DVD and I turned it up a bit too loud (probably close to "reference level." When it got down around 23 Hz, the screens in our windows started vibrating in a really cool wave format. It looked like the ripple effect when you throw a rock in a pond. My wife was at the opposite end of the house and up on the second floor - she said the whole house was shaking. Later I found cracks in the plaster on two walls in room next to the home theater. Whoa!

What adjustments are available for time delay on the various channels? Also, are the time delays available in all modes?

Is the manual PDF up yet?

Charlie

The time delay is actually set as the "distance" in either feet or meters, from your listening position to the speaker. Then the 950 converts it internally to milliseconds. Basically, 1 foot (0.3 meters) equals 1 millisecond.

You set the distance/delay once and it applies to all processing modes.

Sorry, there isn't a manual yet. But I made a bunch of suggestions for when they do write it!




------------------
JeffLH

Thanks for the reply. Just to clairify, there is a distinct adjustment for each of the 7 channels? The surrounds are not lumped together? What about LFE?

Also, does LFE have phase adjustment?

Bummer that we can't rename the inputs - that's always a nice touch.


Charlie

One other question - what is the range of adjustment?

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited February 12, 2002).]

I'm pretty sure left and right are grouped, but I don't remember if the 4 surrounds are grouped... I'll check tonight and will post again tomorrow morning.

There's no phase adjustment for the sub.



------------------
JeffLH

Hello, gang.

Beta Tester #1 making a quick pit stop. If you want to see my take on the marvelous 950 check out my HT web site at

http://home.att.net/~rfowkes1/HT.html


I'm strapped for time right now so I won't be spending a lot of time here (the 950 has kidnapped my free time!!), but I do hang out at the HTF where I'm a moderator.

Enjoy!

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 02/05/01)

I would also be curious if the 950 mixes .1 back into the 'large' speakers if LFE is off.

On the 1050 I played the Sound and Vision sub woofer level test and switched the LFE off and on during. This sequence has atone sent to left for 4 seconds followed by a tone sent to LFE for 2 seconds. When I turned LFE down there was a 2 second hole. When I switched LFE off the .1 was mixed into the large speakers in the system, so clearly the 1050 mixes the .1 back into the large speakers.

Charlie

I checked the tuner and it does have 32 presets. I noticed that if a stored station is too weak, the preset scan will quickly skip over it.

The bass and treble can be adjusted +/- 6dB, in 2dB steps.

During calibration (using the built-in test tones and adjusting relative volumes) you can individually adjust all eight speakers -15/+10dB. That's L, C, R, R-surround, L-surround, R-back, L-back, and sub.

For setting the crossovers, the left and right fronts are grouped, the center stands alone, and the four surrounds are grouped.

Sorry, I forgot to check the delay menu to see about groupings...

To test for crosstalk, I played a DVD - connected to both the digital coaxial input and to an analog input, then switched to an unused input and cranked the volume up to the top (+10dB on the scale.) I didn't hear any crosstalk - absolutely no bleeding through of the music!

One problem with not having a manual is that I don't know everything this unit can do. I read in the latest Outlaw newsletter that it does format conversion between S-Video and composite. I tried it this morning and it works! I connected a composite input and it played on the S-video monitor output.
Then I connected just the S-video input and it played on the composite monitor output. Neat!

It was too bright in my room to really test the quality of the conversion, but it looked great in a quick test using The Fifth Element DVD.

A quick note about quality - I've been plugging and unplugging connections for the past couple of weeks and everything is holding up great and still looks brand new. I've also accidentally zapped the thing with static a couple of times when I forget to ground myself after shuffling across the carpet. It just keeps running great.

The metal case seems strong enough to handle some serious stacking. There are vents on the top though, so I don't know if that's recommended. It has only gotten very slightly warm during my tests.



------------------
JeffLH

It sounds to me like the 950 is shaping up to be an incredibly high quality product with a few minor annoyances. Some of those annoyances are understandable, as "fixing" them would drive the price way beyond $900 even for the Outlaws; some seem to be things they just didn't think where important.

Example: it converst composite sources to S-Video. Quite useful, except that it won't convert to component. This works great if you've only got S-Video and composite sources, but you'll still have to switch modes on your TV if you have at least one component source in the mix. I can guess, though, that S-Video to composite conversion circuitry is probably pretty expensive.

Another example: you can't rename inputs. Sounds to me like this would have been a lot easier to do, but they probably just didn't think of it. It would have been very useful to me, as my CD player will have to plug into one of the video inputs due to its on-screen displays.

Do these minor annoyances overshadow the quality and value of the 950? No, of course not. It's still going to be both the best sounding and cheapest unit out there. But you bet they're both on my wish list for the 950's successor.

Are the adjustments in 1db increments, or in the more precise .5db increments?

Neil

Here are the menu screens:

Main Menu

Input Config
Speaker Config
Channel Calib
Channel Trim
System Config
Multi-Zone
PL2 Music Parameters
Exit

----------
Input Config

Source: DVD
Input: Coaxial 1
Mode: PL2
Music
Treble: 0dB (+/- 6dB, by 2dB increments)
Bass: 0dB
Night: No Comp (DR Comp 1 to 4)
Return to Main Menu

----------
Speaker Config
Front: small/large
Center: small/large/none
Surr: small/large/none
Surr Rear: LB/RB bs(LB) none
Sub: on/off
front Xover: 40/60/80/120/150 Hz
center Xover: 40/60/80/120/150 Hz
surr Xover: 40/60/80/120/150 Hz
Return to Main Menu

----------
Channel Calib
left front: 0 dB (-15 to +10 dB, by 1 dB)
center front: 0 dB (or none)
right front: 0 dB
right surr: 0 dB
right back: 0 dB (or none if you only have one back speaker)
left back: 0 dB
left surr: 0 dB
subwoofer: 0 dB (or none)
Return to Main Menu

----------
Channel Trim

All the same entries as Channel Calib.
The difference is that in Trim mode, you
can hear your source playing. In Calib,
you get white noise.


----------
System Config
front distance: 13 feet (0 to 20')
center distance: 11 feet
surr distance: 10 feet
VFD brightness: half/full
OSD Timeout: 3/5/10/15/20/25/30 seconds
Sleep Timer Set: 0/5/10/20/30/40/50/60 min
Theater Compen: on/off
Distance Units: feet/meters
Return to Main Menu

----------
Multi-Zone
Multi-Zone: on/off
Input: CD
Mute: on/off
Volume: -21 dB
Return to Main Menu

----------
PL2 Music Parameters
Panarama: on/off
Dimension: step 0 (+/- 3)
C width: step 5 (0 to 7)

Return to Main Menu
------------

There are some other hidden things - like if you press and hold the DD button, you can switch between a locked setting and an auto setting. I'm waiting for the manual to find out how auto works.

Also, some menu choices are disabled in some situations - although they're not greyed out. For example, you can't turn off the sub if you tell it you have any small speakers. And you can't adjust the night compression if you're in certain processing modes.



------------------
JeffLH

During the early part of beta, I called Peter directly whenever I had a question - at his home or office. He also called me many times and always asked how I liked the sound. He was always very proud of how the 950 turned out and how it was even better than they had hoped for. If they've left out a few bells and whistles (custom named inputs, for example) that definitely wasn't the case when it came to anything related to producing great sound.

I never got the impression that they were holding anything back from the 950 implementation in order to leave room for a high-end model later.



------------------
JeffLH

Surr Rear: LB/RB bs(LB) none

What exactly does that mean? What does LB, RB, bs(LB) stand for? Is there a large/small setting for these speakers?

Thanks.

Matthew -- Here's my guess (confirmed more or less by another beta tester yesterday): the "LB/RB" is "left back and right back" (7.1 speaker setup), the "bs(LB)" is "left back only" (6.1 speaker setup), and "none" is "none" (5.1 speaker setup). I suspect that these speakers are either always small or are covered by the large/small setting for surrounds (probably the latter), but without the manual we can't be sure.

------------------
Gonk

Matthew,

I think Gonk is correct: the bs(LB) probably stands for back surround for those who will be using one speaker, and menu is letting you know that the sound will be output through the (Left Back) connection. This is been a pretty well established convention in audio hardware: if you are going to output (or input) a single channel, it is usually hooked up to the (white coloured) Left channel jack.

The only other thing that struck me as strange is that there seems to be no way of time aligning the rears at different distances from the sides; at least not on the menu info posted above. The 4 surrounds are treated as a group, just as they are when it comes to crossovers in the bass management. The latter is OK as it is not uncommon for someone to be using the same (or very similar) speakers for all 4 surrounds and therefore use the same crossover setting on both pairs. However, I've rearly seen a 7 channel set-up where the listener was equidistant from the sides and the rears.

_______
Sanjay

[This message has been edited by sdurani (edited February 14, 2002).]

This one will affect us. As our SL/SR BL/BR will be hung straight across the wall, (with the couch on said wall) Ideally I'd want those Backs doing something else, for the 'illusion' that their not 'over our heads'.
But you can't expect the sun/moon/stars when your getting the planet at a steal.

Lena,

Any chance you can place the side surrounds on the side wall? If your couch is going to be against the back wall, having speakers on that wall might not do you much good. I mean, think about where those speakers will be pointing; who's going to be sitting at that location?

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Sanjay

Yeah. I would REALLY like 7 independent adjustments. Grouping speaker size and crossover frequency makes sense, less so for rear vs. surround but it is defensable. In the real world placement is often a bit asymetrical and I think a pre/pro should be ready to compensate.

Charlie

Does the 950 support stereo subs?

That's not been on any of the feature lists, and the back panel only has one sub output. However, the ICBM will let you run stereo subs if you put it between the 950 and the 770.

I think stereo subs are a VERY useful feature (also the option to have two subs configured as front/back) and have put it onto my wish list. I was really surprised when I found out the 950 wouldn't do this, especially as the ICBM does do it.

Sanjay,

Actually the SL/SR are hung on the side walls about 12” from the back wall. Our receiver won’t run the extra speakers (we like to move them around while we can hear them) so the BL/BR are still in the box. They were probably going to be centered on the back wall. (still places the 4 surround, to close for my comfort) until,,,,
We stopped installing when we realized the whole room is basically on an axis, with the Set in a corner. So I suggested that we quit thinking in the box, and off-set, equidistant the FL/FR across the 2 cornered walls and follow this setup all the way back, This boggled my husband until I pointed out that the way we traditionally sit in this room, our heads are turned. End effect placing the back wall to our sides, so we might as well go with the flo.
We have ceased and desisted, waiting on components to play with the whole thing at once, HOWEVER this has left me in the interesting predicament of having speaker wire running all other the place, looping from the ceilings like some strange jungle. (He wants to do it all at once, he hates pulling thru the attic)
Even the teenagers who normally could care less are beginning to comment about the spaghetti, I guess that’s why my husband nicknamed me a ‘man’s woman’ years ago.
(Translation, I let him get away with a lot)!

Lena,

Your husband is a lucky guy!

As for your future speaker set-up, if you can find a listening position where the 4 surrounds are equidistant (or as close as possible) from the sweet spot, then I think you will be all set. There's no way for the speakers to be time aligned with all the seating positions in the room, but at least there will be that one spot where everything (speaker distances, volume levels, etc) will just SNAP into focus. Great for wowing friends!

And don't worry about the mains and centre, as those can be separately time aligned and level matched on the 950.

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Sanjay

Can you tell us about how heavy the 950 is?

While I know that one of the beta testers (RAF) is doing this, I personally would only put the ICBM before the 950, never ever after it. Follow:

The signal coming into the 950 goes through processing that includes bass management and time alignment. If your speakers are not all the same distance from your seating position, then the time alignment will compensate by applying appropriate delays to each set of channels. Now, if you apply bass management to those channels after the delays are incorporated, you could be asking for trouble.

Just one example: imagine taking the bass from your small fronts and small surrounds and outputting the combined result via the sub out. If the front and surround channels have different delays applied to their respective signals, they may then end up out of phase (slightly or severly) with each other when their bass info is combined. This can cause all sorts of re-inforcing and cancellations (bass peaks & dips) in the sub channel output. Now imagine combining the bass from each group of channels (fronts, centre, surrounds, LFE) each with its own delay, and you have the recipe for a possible sonic mess. Not a good idea, IMHO.

Which is why it's always better to have bass management before time alignment; or in this case, have the ICBM before the 950.

Also, if you do use 2 subs, you'll have to make sure they are the same exact distance from the listening position since you can't level match and time align them independently.

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Sanjay

[This message has been edited by sdurani (edited February 14, 2002).]

I'm not sure this would really be a problem with subs, except in extreme cases, as the frequencies involved are so low. At 100 Hz, each sound "wave" is going to be about ten or eleven feet long. I don't think a delay of two or three ms is going to put that wave significantly out of phase. At 30 Hz, your waves are about 35 feet long... the problem would be even less obvious.

Matthew,

Agreed. It may not make much difference at very low frequencies; especially for small rooms. If you've got a 1ms or 2ms delay at 20Hz or 30Hz then the problem (while there) will most likely be inaudible.

However, it is not uncommon in some home theatres to have speakers which have a 5 to 10 foot difference in distance from the listening position. A 5ms or 6ms delay on a 80Hz or 100Hz signal (both of which could end up in the subwoofer) would place one signal 180 degrees out of phase with the other. While you wouldn't get perfect cancellation (they are different signals after all), you will get bass problems. Even small delays can lead to the bass sounding muddy instead of tight.

The bottom line was that there is a chance of creating bass problems by placing the ICBM after the 950. And my point was that I don't think it's worth the risk to do that when the solution is so simple: place any bass management before the 950. You can get lucky with the former set-up, and either not have a problem or have phase problems that are inaudible; but what do you have to gain by taking that risk?

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Sanjay

Stereo subs.

I agree, though, that bass management is better done within the processor. For the time alignment reason and also because I'd rather have it done in the digital domain.

Hence, my wish list for the 950 successor includes dual sub output. Who knows if they'll put it in? I can think of many uses for it though.

I plan on putting my ICBM after the 950, and I don't think time alignment will be an issue. Correct me if my logic is faulty.

I am setting the center and surround crossover point at 60, 80, 100 - whatever works. Then set for no sub. Not sure exactly this is done in the 950, but I'm sure there is a way to send all bass material to the mains.

The 950 center and surround output go directly to the amps, but the main L/R goes to the ICBM first, using it as a stereo crossover for the main outputs. There I set the main crossover to whatever I want (60 or 80 Hz most likely). No recombining of delayed bass to send to the sub, just a redirection of the bass in the mains, which is all of it since I set the 950 for no subs. I can have stereo subs, or mono - the ICBM can do either.

In the past, I have had very good success with slightly different crossover frequencies for the HP (to mains) and LP (to subs). I can do this by splitting the main L/R signal out of the 950, and sending a full range signal to the sub and use my sub's continuously variable LP crossover for the bass. Now I have independently variable HP and LP crossover points.

I also want to have the option of 4th order L-R crossovers for the mains. The ICBM only allows 2nd (12dB) order Butterworth HP, and either 2nd order or 6th order or LP. But... with the set up described above, I have lots of unused inputs available on the ICBM. So I can set the ICBM for 12 dB HP and LP. Take the main L/R outputs and feed them into the L/R surround inputs. The surround outputs are now actually the main L/R signal filtered by 2 cascaded 2nd order Butterworths. There you have it - a 4th order (24dB) L-R crossover! In case you are unaware, a 24dB L-R is 2 cascaded 12dB Butterworths.

So if you think about it long enough, the ICBM is a VERY flexible box, particularly if you aren't using it to cross over all channels of your HT system.

Did this make any sense?

Cheers,
Chris

Chris,

Yes, that does make sense. In essense you have done most of your bass management (re-routing bass from other channels to your mains) before the time alignment step. At that point you're basically splitting the signal from your mains and directing the correct info to the correct drivers (Left low-pass to the Left sub, Left high-pass to the Left speaker; Right low-pass to the Right sub, Right high-pass to the Right speaker).

Clever! It never occured to me to use the ICBM as simply a crossover instead of a complex bass management tool.

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Sanjay

Sanjay,

I notice that you mentioned that I'm using the ICBM after the pre-pro and that you would never do this because of time alignment issues. While I don't share the same passion that you have for time alignment and its implications I can appreciate and respect your position.

However, let me clarify my use of the ICBM with the 950 a bit. Ideally, I would not have wanted to use the ICBM at all since the 950 offers bass managment internally. However, having both a 5.1 DVD-A player and a 2 channel SACD player (my Sony 9000ES), then without the ICBM I would have to choose which unit to connect to the direct analog inputs for bass management. (That's a bit like you asking me who my favorite grandchild is!).

I figured out a way to connect the ICBM after the pre-pro (as mentioned in the ICBM manual) for processing STEREO signals from the SACD player. First I pass the L and R front channels and the Subwoofer channel from the 950 through the ICBM. Then the four surround channels go directly from the 950 to their respective amps. Therefore, the issues you raised with time alignment and, more specifically, phase prolems introduced by the surround channels into the ICBM are not applicable here.

Would I prefer *not* using the ICBM after the 950? Of course, and for some of the very reasons you mentioned. The less pieces in the puzzle the better. But until I eventually get a single player for both DVD-A and SACD multichannel (like the new Pioneer or such) this at least gives me some bass management of SACD 2 channel sound.

I'm continuing to investigate some alternative ways to get energy to my subwoofers from SACD 2 channel without the ICBM and if I come up with any viable options I'll share them (probably over on the HTF since my time to surf all the sites is limited)

Take care.

Hi Robert,

Thanx for the clarification; much appreciated. You're essentially doing what Chris does. The bass routing/combining and subsequent time alignment has already occurred (and in that order) inside the 950 before you pass your mains & sub channel info to the ICBM. Done this way, very little (if any) bass re-routing occurs after the time alignment.

What I was wary about was using the ICBM as a full bass management tool after you've time aligned your speakers using the 950. In that case, you'll be taking signals form the mains, centre, surrounds & LFE channels each with their own individual delay and combining them. As opposed to your set-up, the above configuration can lead to all sorts of phase & timing problems.

Of course, you may not be experiencing these problems because you're not doing heavy duty bass re-routing & combining with your ICBM. However, think about the impression others are getting about your experiences. Folks, like me for example, read that you are using an ICBM after the 950 and that you are not experiencing any of the possible problems that can occur, and then get the impression that they can do the same. Do they know that you're not using the ICBM to combine bass info from various channels? If not, they may be in for a surprise when they hook up their ICBM between their 950 and their amps and expect everything to sound like a coherent soundfield.

You may want to clarify this at some point (even if it's only at HTF).

BTW, as to my passion about time alignment, let me ask you a simple question: do you use time alignment on the receivers or pre/pros in your home theatre? If so, why?

Best Regards,
Sanjay

Hey Folks,

Matthew asked how much the 950 weighs - I'm not going to unhook it to weight it, but it's somewhere in the 15-20 lb range.

Dimensions are: 5" high, 17" wide, and 14.5" deep.

I had commented before that my wife and I couldn't hear a difference when switching between the coaxial input and the analog input. Well, I revisited that test yesterday when the wife was out shopping.

Is there a name for that magic volume level where your speakers disappear and you only hear the music? On my system, that's around 70dB. At that level, if I try to audition just one track, I often end up listening to the whole disk. Well, while I still didn't hear a difference at wife-friendly levels, I did hear a difference at my personal reference level - and I prefer the sound from the 950's DACs.

The difference is subtle, similar in my opinion to when I swapped in better interconnects. Using mostly acoustic material during my tests, I found the 950 has a better soundstage, and that it sounds crisper without being bright or shrill. One of my favorite disks is Muddy Waters, "Folk Singer" (MFSL gold disk) and it just sounds amazing through the 950. A little bit of glare that I hadn't noticed before was removed going through the 950's DACs.



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JeffLH

Robert

If you are looking for a way to use your ICBM with a DVD-A and an SACD player, look no further than Shawn Fogg's switch box. I have one and it works like a dream: http://people.ne.mediaone.net/shawnfogg/

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Nigel Pond
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