I am going to buy American made equipment whenever I can. B & K and Outlaw are the closest I can get.

Therefore, my choices are down to two manufacturers. I must admit the B & K is impressive and am leaning that way. I want to know if Outlaw can “out feature” and out perform B & K.

Mr. or Ms. Prillaman put together a comprehensive comparison of equipment in a spreadsheet. I have compared the B & K receiver and separates to the Outlaw. Nothing can touch the 770 for power, but I will never need 200 watts. Other than the light dimming power, what advantages does the 950/770 have over either the AVR 307 or Ref 30/6125?

Gonk or anyone else help me out here?

Mr. Prillaman here. It may still be too early to tell a lot about the benefits of the 950/770 over an AVR307 or Ref30/6125, but we do at least have some input now. The feedback from the 950 beta testers includes one Ref30 user, who indicated that the 950 had a noticeably lower sound floor (seeing as the 950 was sonically close to a Lexicon MC-12 according to beta testers, that's not surprising -- the 950 seems to be turning out to be a first-rate performer). That's the sort of info that couldn't be included in my chart , and it makes the 950/770 even more appealing (at least in my opinion).

Can the 950 out-perform a Ref30 or an AVR307? The best information we have now suggests that the 950 can match or beat the Ref30's performance. The AVR307 is possibly even easier -- the 950 offers the benefits of separates, which the AVR307 can't: upgradability (9.1 surround format appears next year? -- keep your amps, pick up another amp, and sell the 950 to buy a new pre/pro) and isolation of components (the bulky, power-hungry amp channels are completely removed with a pre/pro).

Can the 950 "out-feature" the AVR307/Ref30? I think the answer to that is probably yes. The Ref30 offers two more S-Video inputs, but overall two fewer audio inputs. It offers more digital inputs, but they are not assignable like the 950's (so they have to have more). The Ref30 offers IEEE 1394 input (something that many people felt should have been included on the 950), but there's not much or anything you can do with it. The 950 offers digital decoding modes that the Ref30 lacks (Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Pro Logic II, DTS-ES, DTS NEO:6, 5.1/7.1 stereo modes), although the Ref30 does have THX (no THX-EX or Ultra, though, and by all reports the 950's CES processing may more than make up for that). The 950 offers much more flexible bass management (triple-crossover, adjustable crossover points, an analog 80Hz crossover circuit on the 5.1 analog input that can be enabled if needed). The 950 has 192/24 DAC's, compared to the Ref30's 96/24. The 950 has an analog bypass mode available for any stereo analog input.

One thing you may not be aware of, which may direct you toward B&K: while the Ref 30, AVR307, and 6125 are all made in the USA, the 950 is made in Malaysia. The 770 is made in the USA, and both are of course designed in the USA, although they used consultants from all over the world for the 950. Just wanted to make sure we were all clear on that point.

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Gonk

Gonk, yo da man.

Being somewhat of a technical person, I have believed in "show me the data". I appreciate your response. Couple more questions though.

Is THX just certifications to a certain standards?

I understood IEEE 1394 is becoming the standard for HDTV and will be the standard connector. What do you know about that? What would that do to connectors on the processor?

From the THX website:

In essence, THX is an exclusive set of technical standards established by the engineers at the world-reknowned production company, Lucasfilm Ltd.

They have a lot more detail on that and history and products and descriptions ad nauseum at the website here .

Hope that helps, jacket_fan.

THX is, from what I understand, both certification to a standard (which can be applied to pre/pros and receivers, or to speakers, subwoofers, and I believe even source devices like DVD and LaserDisc players) and a processing method meant to most properly match a theater environment (reserved for pre/pros and receivers). Think of it as "better" Dolby Digital, so to speak. RAF (a moderator at Home Theater Forum) observed yesterday that his beta testing experience with the 950 left him feeling that it met or exceeded THX's "Ultra" level requirements (the Ref30 is not "Ultra" rated, by the way). Some people feel that THX is really valuable, but a lot of others consider it a waste of money if the equipment is designed well. I personally lean toward the latter, and so have been glad to see Outlaw skip THX in their products.

IEEE 1394 ("firewire") is used some, I believe, to connect DV camcorders. It will also probably be used for digital output of DVD-Audio and SACD signals, but currently the encryption standards haven't been agreed to so it's still in limbo. As for digital video (HDTV, etc.), I think DVI (digital video interface) will probably be adopted, not IEEE 1394. Check out the chart -- there's a lot of fuss about firewire on the forums, but not even the new Pioneer Elite and Denon super-receivers include it (although the Denon has a proprietary digital interface for DVD-Audio -- yuck). For that matter, even the $9000 Lexicon MC-12 currently lacks firewire, although there is the capability to add a card later that could provide it.

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Gonk

Guesss THX is really a "nice to have" as long as the performance is there.

Frustrating there is so much question as to where formats and connectivity will finally end.

Maybe the right thing to do is get a killer amp and upgrade the pre/pro as you go.

Thanks for the help. I will continue to lurk awaiting more info on the release of the 950 and 770.

If you're not willing to spend the money for a 950 yet, you could always get a 1050 (with or without a 750/770) and use that until the Outlaws release their high-end pre/pro, which they have already stated WILL have firewire and all the latest bells and whistles. This will most likely be over a year from now, though.

You can sell the 1050 for about a $100 loss used. We don't know what the used market for the 950 is going to look like yet.

Bingo! That is the exact reason to go with separates over one of those overpriced monster receivers.

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Sanjay

One thing that warrants posting is that the 950 (from what I can discern from the beta testers postings) might not be as adjustable as the other products mentioned. The 950 will not allow independent speaker to listening position distance adjustments nor will it allow each input a tailored sub or speaker level adjustment. Is this how you guys 'see' it?

Its actually worse than you think. THX isn't really worth anything, its merely a logo applied if you paid the bounty, many THX certified dvds are utter crap, its not hard to believe that the hardware receives the same pass, if the price is right.

Don't current 'THX' rated processors have a 'post processor' for 'THX'. At least that is what the THX folks say. How much added good that processor does you-----your guess is probably better than mine. I try to keep to tube equipment when I can! (I wonder if a vacuum tube processor could be designed and built without ANY transistors or ICs??? How much do you think that would cost???)

THX is post processing. It takes a processed signal (Pro-logic, PL II, DD or DTS) and applies post processing (re-equalization, timbre matching, decorrelation, etc) to it.

Jim Fosgate, inventor of Pro Logic II, designed the FAP-V1: a tube based PL II surround processor/pre-amp.

$7500

It was displayed at CES 2001; see photo here . I don't think it ever came out and Fosgate Audionics is now talking about a 2003 release, saying that the delay will translate to a better product. (Sound familiar?) To see the specs of the FAP-V1, check out the original press release here .

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Sanjay

THX Ultra 2 is both a certification scheme and an audio format. THX Ultra 2 is a "seven-channel" surround mode that derives sides and rears. This mode must be implemented in a processor to receive THX Ultra 2 certification (pace my colleague Philip Brandes over at SMR). Unfortunately THX updates its website so infrequently that there are no details available there yet.

But your concept is correct -- THX cert does not necessarily mean that the gear will sound any better than non-THX cert gear.

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Nigel Pond
SMR Home Theatre
SMR Forums
SMR Group
HighFidelityReview

[This message has been edited by ukexpat (edited February 19, 2002).]

Thanks for the info Sdurani!!! I look forward to its release (just as I look forward to the 950's release!!!)

Isn't THX designed to have the rear effect speakers on the side walls, parallel and in line with the listening position, where as the other formats (we are talking about 5.1 here guys!) are setup with the rear effects speakers behind the listening position?

For $7500 I personally wouldn't even consider the Fosgate processer (if it even ever comes out). It's a nice curiousity piece, but that's where it ends. The PL II decoding in the 950 will be just as good, for less than one-eighth the price.

Slick, if you're looking for that lush & warm tube sound, buy the 950 and hook it up to some inexpensive but nice tube amps.

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Sanjay

And 105 dB sensitivity speakers.

LothX speakers, perhaps! I hope that by its release I will be wealthy enough that 7000$ is like buying a candy bar! But until then I will just have to live like "poor white trailer trash" (no offence to anyone, it's just a saying!) and settle for the "best bang for the buck"! It would be nice, though, to just get the best regardless of price!

Hear hear. I'd love to buy that Lexicon but recognize that I am a man of limited means.

Of course, if this startup company I'm working for takes off... I may just have to say fare the well to all my Outlaw frieds... But then again the last startup I was working for went *POOF* very quickly...