I know one of the beta testers is comparing these two units in his system and has been very impressed in how the 950 has stacked up. A visit to Lexicon's web site and a quick look at the MC-12 specs shows they are using the same DSP decoder (Cirrus Logic's CS49326)as the 950. I know that does not explain all, but it sure shows me the Outlaws have good taste! I also believe Krell may be using the same DSP in their pre/pro.

That Cirrus DSP chip is what decodes the Dolby Digital and DTS streams. It's what the processors do with that data after it is decoded that separates them from one another. Lexicon's strength is their Logic 7 matrix decoder which does an incredible job of converting 2 channel material into a very natural sounding multi-channel presentation. It also expands on 5.1 sources and (on the MC-12) 6.1 sources. On top of that, they continue to refine Logic 7 constantly.

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Sanjay

Sanjay,

You are certainly right about the strengths of the Lex MC-12 unit- and the fact that what DSP decoder used isn't the only piece of the "puzzle" that is important. Interestingly, Logic 7 is probably included as one of the functions decoded by the programmable, mult-channel Cirrus CS449326 DSP engine. Thanks for your input!

Isn't Logic 7 proprietary to Lexicon?

Matthew,
Yes, and best I know JBL/Harmon Kardon also have it (all under the Harmon International umbrella)
Part of the reason I looked up the Latest HK receiver when I was going different directions, as it had Logic 7, very highly rated
Therefore if the Cirrus matches L7, very good job on Outlaws part. JMO

JBL and HK have Logic 7 because they and Lexicon are all part of the Harman International group. I very much doubt that the Cirrus chip does the L7 decoding -- that code is proprietary to Lexicon and they have not shown any interest in licensing it outside their group. Interestingly it appears as though the new Mark Levinson processor ($40K) will not have L7 even though it was originally on the feature list.

I dhoubt whether anything Cirrus can produce will come close to L7 -- that code has been revised, tweaked, and tested for years and, IMHO, is about as good as it gets. OK I am a biased MC-12B owner, but every time I switch that thing on, it amazes me.

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Nigel Pond
SMR Home Theatre
SMR Forums
SMR Group
HighFidelityReview

I understand Logic 7 is a proprietary process. I also said the chip was programmable- therefore a company could (might) use the chip to decode its proprietary DSP. Hey, I could be wrong! I believe I have seen it mentioned on the Cirrus web site that they have worked with Logic 7 or have the capability to decode same. Some consider the DSP chip to be the "engine" in the processor unit. My origial post was really intended to compliment the Outlaws for using a DSP that Lexicon felt was worthy enough to use in their unit costing 10 times as much! Sorry for the confusion. Thanks for your replies!

Steves,

You didn’t confuse me, in my vague way I get it all and good point. In old cars the Ford & Chevy with the big block (Cirrus chip in question) is mostly gonna beat the pants of the small blocks (some other inferior chip). These guys are concerned with the headers, the drive train, (is it turbo charged). That does make all the difference, but its very nice to know that Outlaw is using some of the ‘big boy parts’.
Also, waiting with bated breath, for the Lexicon Beta tester’s further studies into the Cirrus surround modes Vs his Logic 7 (he stated he would focus on this subject soon).
Everyone knows the Lexicon is a beautiful piece, and if the Lex. Beta guy says it comes pretty close, then it will be another plus for Outlaw, like their Zoran algorithms Vs THX EX, and their 1050 smallish 65 watts; (acts like 100+).
I bet the first guy that put Nitrous on his itty-bitty foreign car, had the crowd laughing silly, (…that guys gonna explode!) until he blew the pants off the Big block.
No one (I think) expects the 950 to trash the MC, but if it stays on the bumper, WOW.
There are many ways to tweak an engine, (some of them downright strange).
I don’t care how it’s done, as long as I put my foot to the pedal and the power’s there. (and I don’t blow up).

Lena

I like your analogy there. Seems pretty fitting (and I'm also looking forward to hearing the MC-12 beta tester's thoughts on the CES modes as compared to the MC-12's Logic 7).

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Gonk

Lena,

Thanks for the translation!

Gonk,

I see his thoughts on that subject are posted over there now.

Here are Gene's comments comparing the 950's processing to the MC-12's. He hopes to report on DVD-Audio playback next week.

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Gonk

I too was waiting for Gene's evaluation of how Cirrus Extra Surround compared to Lexicon's Logic 7. Unfortunately, I never got a clear understanding from his review of what CES really is.

He discusses how it processes 2 channel material, but then he mentions it again when he's discussing 5.1 sources that have undergone post processing (as opposed to 5.1 sources with no additional processing, which he discusses further down). So, does CES enhance 2 channel material or 5.1 channel material or both? It's never really clear. He then adds:

He would have reported those findings before hearing the 950 because he could compare Logic 7 to PL II in his MC-12? What does that mean; is CES basically PL II? (Am I missing something here?) Further down he says:

I have absolutely no idea what he's talking about here. On the MC-12 (or ANY other Lexicon processor, for that matter) if you play a 5.1 source in "pure 5.1 mode", the surrounds are run in parallel: the left surround channel info is sent to the left side & rear speakers and the right surround info is sent to the right side & rear speakers. That is, unlike what Gene has stated, NONE of the speakers are silent. (Trust me on the above; I've owned and used Lexicon processors since 1995, and been living with a MC-12 since August of last year.)

Anyway, I hope he clarifies his statements. Or at the very least I hope someone explains what CES is.

_______
Sanjay

Sanjay,
Confused me too as I'm still getting a handle on all the processing modes.
I thought CES (Music & Cinema) were processing choices, seperate (and additional) to PL2, (two modes). Yet it seemed as if he did treat it as a combined process.
I also thought most 5.1 modes matrixed out to 7.1 if you them online?
Can you post to HTF? (I lurk there but have never registered). The beta testers seem to be awfully nice about trying to reply to any and all questions.

Sanjay,

Good questions. I think CES stands for "Cirrus Extra Surround". I'm not sure, but was guessing he was using PL2 with CES as a sort of "post processing" to get 7 channel sound(?). I was also sort of under the impression CES is Cirrus's own version of the Logic7 algorithm. Just a guess on my part- and I'm also confused. Thanks for bringing this up. Hope someone can clear this up. By the way, since you mention that you currently have a MC-12, are you also looking to get the 950?

[This message has been edited by steves (edited February 15, 2002).]

Darn, I think I meant repeated the signal in BL/BR, not matrixed, anyhow, (no dead speakers).

Gonk, Owl's Warden, Sklenar, somebody:

In Robert A. Fowks reply over at HTFon Feb 14 at 9:42 pm to John he reports "... the firewire connection does exactly what I expected ...". Did I miss something somewhere? The Outlaws did say that firewire wasn't (can't think of the word) at this time.

[This message has been edited by vox (edited February 15, 2002).]

Like Vinnie Barbarino would say "I am so confuuuused!"

I actually thought CES was supposed to be some new 7 channel matrix decoding, not a variant of PL II. But its full name seems to imply that it actually expands on PL II. Now, folks have been asking, begging, speculating, etc for a 7 channel version of PL II ever since the format was released. I wonder if CES is something that extracts a centre back channel(s) from PL II's stereo surrounds without officially being a Dolby product (you know, just like the Outlaw 1050 receiver extracts a centre back channel from the stereo surround channels of DD 5.1 without officially being DD-EX).

Ditto. I lurk there (mostly because of the 950 coverage), but I've never registered either. Maybe our Mr. Prillaman will say something (hint hint Gonk).

_______
Sanjay

[This message has been edited by sdurani (edited February 17, 2002).]

Steves,

Confused? Welcome to the club. I was guessing the exact same as you; after all, isn't that how they billed CES, as some sort of new 7.1 channel matrix decoder?

Nope, but I know folks that are. You know how it is when folks bug you with questions about what "stereo" to get. The 950/770 combo is cheaper than many of those mega-receivers; and I think it's a better value. Besides, the 950 is easily one of the most exciting products to come out in a while! Who wouldn't be following the drama of a piece of hardware that is about to shatter the price/performance barrier.

_______
Sanjay

P.S. Vox, I think RAF was having a little fun and pulling our legs. ;-)

sd

I've often wondered about this. If you poke thru the datasheet for the Cirrus CS49300 family of DSP chips, it lists Logic 7™ as one of the supported formats. See http://www.cirrus.com/design/products/overview/detail.cfm?d=45 I haven't read the whole thing (it's waaaay over my head) so I'm not sure exactly what "support" means.

[This message has been edited by Ellen (edited February 15, 2002).]

I think he was taking a friendly jab at a former member of the forum (who apparently got himself perma-banned) who made a huge fuss over the need for firewire. RAF also goes on to say that it worked with all the devices available at this time that use firewire (translation=none). There is no firewire.

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Gonk

Here's another interesting thought. At one time Dolby/THX were considering patent infringement action against all the non-licensed boxes which perform pseudo-EX processing. The reason is that EX decoding is patented (by Dolby) and there is a strong argument that any non-licensed EX processing is infringing the patent because it is a simple SR + SL = SB sum. I haven't heard much about that recently, but it sounds like CS' pseudo-EX processing might also be open to challeng.

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Nigel Pond
SMR Home Theatre
SMR Forums
SMR Group
HighFidelityReview

"The 950/770 combo is cheaper than many of those mega-receivers; and I think it's a better value. Besides, the 950 is easily one of the most exciting products to come out in a while! Who wouldn't be following the drama of a piece of hardware that is about to shatter the price/performance barrier."


Exactly! I was pretty much ready to buy one of the "mega" receivers when I discovered Outlaw's offering. The 950/770 combo was just what I have been looking for. It makes separates affordable for me.


[This message has been edited by steves (edited February 15, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by steves (edited February 15, 2002).]

Ellen.


It was pointed out at the beginning of this thread that Outlaw is using the same base DSP chip as the Lexicon MC-12 (a 10K product), some others noted that a lot goes on (and into the sound) with what’s done beyond the chip.

(Near as I understand)
That same chip, decodes the same basic info for both CO’s and also ‘supports’ Harmon using it for Logic 7 processing and Outlaw using it for CES processing (plus whatever else the chip "supports” and each manf. chooses to pay licensing fees to use, such as DPII).
Other manufactures purchasing this chip are not allowed to use this chip to produce Logic 7 as ‘7’ is patented by Harmon International who has never sold the license to use it in the industry.

Its a case of ‘one up mans ship’, and all the sound processing schemes (after the point of decoding truly ‘discrete’ channels separately) I would class as ‘pseudo’ sound processes, attempting to get more out of less, (matrixed channels out of discreet channels). And each new version on the market trys to better the last.
For Harmon I. this promotes people buying a HI product if they want ‘Logic 7’ which is a highly esteemed sound processor, this does not keep other manf. from trying to equal or better ‘Logic 7’ with their own versions of matrixed sound.
Logic 7 has been refined and perfected for awhile now, it seems to be considered one of the benchmark sound matrixing schemes, to try to beat. Outlaw has had great success (the 1050) with getting to certain sound benchmarks, via their own road, given time there’s no telling what they’ll produce as they seem to have already reached an (industry stirring) incredible quality for the price point. And many add, quality valued at any price point.

Gonk,

Very perceptive! It shows you are actually reading these comments. The problem with cross pollenation of these forum messages from one site to another is that some of the "inside" jokes sometimes defy translation. I'm trying to be very careful not to place any such cryptic messages in my general comments (like those on my HT web site.)

http://home.att.net/~rfowkes1/HT.html


Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.
No, vox, there is no firewire.

Take care.

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RAF

My HT (latest update 02/14/02)Now includes Outlaw 950

[This message has been edited by Robert A Fowkes (edited February 16, 2002).]