I hate to even ask, but does the 950 have any of those odd behaviors (like the 1050 volume knob) that we're going to have to put up with?

Charlie

err ... what's so odd about the 1050's volume control and/or its behavior?

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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

I understand it skips sometimes. Never happened to mine, though.

Actually, on my 1050, it's next to impossible to turn it down manually. I happened to be right next to it the other day and listening to some music when I thought it was a tad loud.

Reached up to turn it down and it went up. Tried going slower, it went up. I then tried faster, but it kept going up. Even tried changing directions in the event my mind had completely escaped me, went up faster.

By now I've got the Offspring coming out of my speakers at about 70 to 75... do I think to just reach for the safety of the green button? Oh no, way too simple. Instead I start scrouging for the remote. Finally found it! Only then did it occur to me I had several options, including the stop or pause buttons on the CD player, mere inches from my face. Oh well, nothing damaged.

Just thought I'd share so y'all could learn from my lapse in reasoning!

Not to mention the 'mute' button was under your thumb while you were twiddling the volume...

Funny how it's so easy AFTER the crisis is over, huh?

Mine hasn't gone that crazy, but depending on factors I haven't been able to fully quantify mine goes from perfect to nearly unresponsive. The remote is perfect. I'm wondering if program matterial or mode plays a role. In DD it seems great, stereo ???, Pro Logic seems bad - I should experiment I suppose.

BTW - I was looking at the Anthem AVM-20 yesterday - the remote is oddly familiar.


Charlie

There have been times in the past when my 1050's volume knob either didn't respond at all or responded in the opposite direction from what was intended. For some reason, though, I haven't had any trouble with it lately. Don't know if I've found the magic touch for it or what...

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Gonk

Owl's_warder,

So what's the problem? I thought that was the point of the Offspring. 70. . . 75. . .I think the 1050 was just going to eleven. . .you know, one louder! It was old Offspring, though, right? If it was the newer stuff, maybe 65 should be the limit.

Seriously, though, I think that issue will be there, unless the designers noticed the problem either here or from phone calls early on in the development. I imagine it is one of those areas where testing didn't reveal a consistent problem (as some people don't seem to have the issue) and therefore they left well enough alone. Just a guess. I hope for everybody's sake, though, that the problem was noticed in time. Or you're listening to music/movies that play well at mega-dB!

S.

I haven't had any problems with the 950's volume control during beta.

I've tried spinning it quickly and slowly and it has always tracked perfectly.

I like the precision of it - you feel a little bump at every 1 dB increase or decrease as you turn the dial.

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JeffLH

Things aren't always what they seem, but here goes....

In a past life I worked in real time software and industrial controls. This involved a lot of reading various sorts of encoders and writing to lots of output devices. The deal with the 1050 volume knob looks a lot like the processor missing volume knob encoder ticks.

This can be due to many things, but typically it is because somebody decided, either due to hardware limitations or laziness, to poll the encoder inputs instead of using a hardware counter or interrupts.

So if this is true I suspect the DSP getting busy for whatever reason would tend to make the volume knob less reliable. Again this is all SWAG, but it feels right.


Charlie

More about the volume control:

- It takes about 2.5 revolutions to go from min to max volume.

- The volume dial does not move when you use the remote control. (On my Yamaha, you can hear a little motor turning the dial.)

- When you turn the unit on, it comes back at the same volume as when you turned it off. Spinning the dial while it is off does not affect the volume when you turn it back on.

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JeffLH

Jeff

The volume knob sounds like it functions very similarly to the 1050 -- I also had a Yamaha with a motorized volume control, and I've actually found that I prefer the 1050's knob (which just acts as "up" and "down" buttons combined into a wheel). For one thing, the 1050/950 approach gives better control than the Yamaha's motorized dial did (using the remote on the Yamaha, a brief tap of the button would cause the motor to crank briefly, moving the dial 10 degrees or so -- which was often more of an increase or decrease than I wanted).

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Gonk

Per Jeff, the volume knob does not physically ‘move’ with the remote? In addition spinning the volume knob while power is off does not change volume setting?
This appears bizarre to me, how do you stop from blowing the room out of the water on power up?
I assume my old JVC has a motorized volume, (although I’ve never heard the motor). The knob rotates with remote send, extremely smoothly in any increment needed.

I rarely physically move my volume. Yet a quick visual check is part of my power up preflight routine. Across the room, I can see the ‘mark’ in lighted conditions, and when the unit is powered, in darkened conditions, there is a tiny display dot that shows me exactly where I lay.
On a few occasions, the knob has visually looked dangerously high for startup, I go over and physically turn it down, (with power off), realizing that my volume down, through the remote, will not rotate counterclockwise fast enough on powerup, before the processing delay hits the speakers.

So on the 1050/950 the knob if moved with power off, and/or by the remote, leaves you with no line of sight clues as to volume level setting!

How do you who live without this keep from giving yourself, the neighbors, and the pets a dangerously riveting wake up call?
This one doesn’t seem at all simpatico with my normal system routines.

Lena,

Does your TV have a volume knob? If not, then how do you keep it from coming on too loudly on power up?

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Sanjay

I haven't had any trouble with that. Think of it as not having a volume knob at all, just "up" and "down" buttons. Nobody can walk by and turn it all the way up while it's off. It stays at whatever volume it was when you turned it off, so unless you had it really cranked up when you shut it off you don't get blasted when you turn it back on (it doesn't hurt that nearly all of my sources are quiet when first turned on -- CD, VCR, and DVD are quiet until I hit "play" or at least until a menu loads, and the cable box defaults to channel 1, which is a silent and static display).

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Gonk

Don’t mean to sound nitpicky, as was well proven on the other forum, it is almost hilarious how one factor
“gets someone’s goat”, that another operator finds a complete non-issue. There are some other larger “tweak” limitations, that don’t bother me a bit.

Sanjay, Yes it does, but never does the TV volume level get placed where simply powering up would make you jump out your skin. When my guys were 3 & 5 they could occasionally fool me like that, but being teenagers when they crank it, its always through the receiver now.

Gonk, I think you & I have the same remote and I love my macros!
I have 3 main choices, and we live by them, (the coming and going crowd I’ve trained to 3 buttons, since my remote is a bunch of incomprehensible paths to them.) If I leave even one step out for them on the 3 mains, (such as engage play) they tend to start turning my system upside down punching any ole button on screen.
1) Powers up Satellite & TV, with audio thru TV, (we never push the volume on that). If its something good, I add the reciever through the separates section.
2) (This is a problem) is set to power up DVD. Correct Video Feed, Audio thru receiver, DVD & Play all at once. Usually the DVD just defaults to the menu screen which can have a quite loud audio loop playing right away.
3) Video off, powers up the CD and the receiver, with play engaged.

The problem for me is I have learned & so have the kids, on 2 & 3 to do that quick ‘visual’ to the receiver knob if you don’t want a nasty surprise. If I cant ‘see’ it, in countless scenarios I can ‘hear” us getting burned.
I could be safe, and step over the BIG dog whose ‘spot’ is always right in front of these controls, hit power and immediately spin the knob down, (since its not engaged with power off). And then go back across the room and back to my macros.
When its gonna hurt, Is watching ‘The Sixth Sense” basically a dialogue movie, and having volume up, Pop around the corner to answer a call/knock; hit mute, and come around the corner and engage, during the staircase birthday party screaming scene etc. We have all trained to “visual” before hitting macros on, mute, etc.

And yes Sanjay, (I can see you thinking) , I do have to step over the dog to load the DVD’s, CD’s any way. But I usually have 2 CD’s loaded that stay put for days and weeks at a time, As I breeze around I’ll engage them if alone, at any given time day & evening, with the remote.

Just a major speed bump for me individually, prob. not for anyone else.

Very good. That's exactly what I was thinking! (I'm that predictable? Doh!)

The 'having to step over the dog anyway' thing illustrates the point I was getting at originally; i.e., the 950's volume control behaves like something you already deal with anyway. If you do end up getting the 950 you'll have to use the volume control the way you do on the TV. I'm sure you'll figure out something. It might be a minor problem, but it shouldn't be a deal breaker.

BTW, before your post I hadn't given the volume interface a second thought because it operates exactly like what I've been used to (on pre/pros I've had) over the last 6 years.

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Sanjay

I, too, prefer the motorized kind, for several reasons, mostly because I think they're easier to use. I know, I know, how can a volume knob be hard to use? Well, it just seems more intuitive that every possible volume should have a unique position on the knob. I know they don't last as long, most of them being potentiometers (sp?) but there's just a coolness there that the fake knobs don't have. In my mind, rather than doing the Outlaw kind of knob, you'd do just as well to put two buttons on there. Same effect.

This doesn't bother me as much now that I've become a couch potato and accustomed to using the remote for all volume changes. And it's most certainly not a reason to buy something else over the 950.

BTW, every receiver I've used in the past 20 years had this kind of knob. Unmotorized for some of them, of course, but they lacked a remote of any kind.

Sanjay, …aren’t men always!………

eeeek, I’m ducking, I’m running (I really didn’t mean it, giggle)

For you, I will cover up my volume and see what’s/what. And Matthew, -“just a coolness there”. That why I’m kicking and screaming (or just being ‘whiny’, if you prefer). I took SO MUCH flax around here when I came in with my remote a year ago. (Too complicated, never work, HOW much did you pay for that, da/da/da). I’m the only one who can program it; they all love it now and treat it with great reverence. And for the first time in years, I have one control, that does EVERYTHING, regardless of brand or age. And it was a cool factor to see that big ole knob scrolling up and down all by itself, and with a visual stop past a certain level that clearly tells me: - Warning, if you attempt to power up now you WILL break the sound barrier! (And I try really hard to step over the dog, 50 times a day instead of 100)

I don't have a motorized volume control on my receiver (I won't tell you what it is because I am embarrased), and I have never had an issue with it for a couple reasons. First of all, I never leave it cranked when I power down. Secondly, when I power down my receiver, I also power everything else down. Therefore, when I power back up, there is nothing running, no CD's, DVD's, LD's, or anything. I guess that if I left it on the radio (which I never listen to because there is nothing good on), I could run into an issue. Again, though, I think that the first point is good enough.

Funny! Now get you head out of Cosmo and back into Guide to Home Theater (where it belongs).

For moi? How nice. All kidding aside though, do you really rely on visual confirmation of the volume knob enough that you would seriously reconsider getting the the 950? I ask because there isn't much (if any) alternative at the 950's price point; at least not in pre/pros.

Better than trying really hard to step ON the dog even once a day.

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Sanjay

Hey, Lena. If the power on volume is really this much of an issue for ya, could you just add a sequence in your macros? For example, turn on the 950, turn it down, then turn on other components? Never had a remote as smart as yours so I don't know if it'd work or not.

As a general rule, even in my pre-1050 days (motorized volume knob with a dot), I would lower the volume level to less than loud (on the 1050, around 25 or so). That way, there was no jolt to my system regardless of what I was playing.

The other option would be to set your macro up to mute the receiver on start-up. Then, if you so choose, you can check the volume and change it to your preference. Or, you could be real sneaky and program the power off macro to lower the volume prior to shutting the system off. I've found that macros make many of the problems encountered with home audio fixable with a little creativity.

S.

Cosmo – Smamos. I did a stint of modeling years ago (Market Hall not print) and I hate that stuff!

Yep that’s me, at the big family gatherings and/or events, you’ll find me with the guys talking aviation, not with the manicure crowd. (mine are consistently broken from horses and garden)
Tim, the Tool Man is one of my heroes; the trouble he gets into makes me quite fond of him, as its rather reminiscent of my own husband!

Kidding aside:
I really could look at a broad, (price) range, but as I’m new to this, and love a bargain. I have settled on Outlaw as a great, medium for my learning curve. If my own ears agree with the hype, I think it’s an excellent choice. I feel in my first peek into this industry (all of audio/video), that the change of pace in technology is far too aggressive and unstable in the tech, particulary in infor chain, ie,firewire,Ditg. out copywrite hitch, decoders for HDTV, COFDM vs 8-VSB etc. The other day I read, (I believe maybe Audio Engineering Society or such) right now, the “Media moguls are eating their own young”.
I’m not saying I won’t make a purchase based on the I don’t care, I like it now theory, (I can impulse buy with the best of em!). But I’m trying to be cagey and wise in this new arena.

I am too much the Neophyte, to worry right now about some of the time delay etc, issues. (I know, I know, I should, but a few things at a time) But Volume, now that’s something I understand. Every purchase design has tradeoffs. Right now my husband has pushed me to buy a new car, but they just don’t make what I want. (A cross, between a Vette, Austin Martin mixed with Minivan, PU, Hummer!) And no, the volume tweaking is definitely not an issue alone to nix a purchase.

Owls Warder, good point and actually the entire reason I posted my gripe, to see what back door method of dealing with this (issue for me) might have been achieved by any of you. I can’t recall absolutely, but its seems I played with volume settings in my macros a year ago when I set it up, and twasnt allowed. I’ll look up the manual and try to verify this soon.

Sandman,
We were real time typing together. I will pull that manuel soon and check that out. If I play with the command timeing chain, (if it will control volume there, can't REMEMBER) and place a voloume down in a couple of spots, that might do the trick.
My macros are set up where you hit the one button to power up the 1/2/3 main choices. and the same button tapped again powers it all off. (KISS for the kids)If it can volume down, first and last step in the macro, just might....

Sandman: This makes a lot of sense, as I don't think the 950 has an ON button on the remote. The POWER button only turns the unit OFF. Per one of the beta testers, to turn the 950 ON you simply press any of the INPUT buttons. So instead of having a separate macro for each input, it seems much easier to program just one macro: something that will drop the volume right before turning the unit off.

Lena: That's good to hear. I think the 950/770 is an incredible value. You're right, the change of pace in technology is far too agressive and unstable at the moment. This makes going the separates route a much more attractive proposition; certainly more attractive than some of those ridiculously high priced receivers that are out there. Years from now when you've outgrown the 950 (and you will outgrow it), the only change you'll have to make to your system is replaceing the pre/pro (which is the part of the audio chain where the technology is moving the fastest). Your amps, speakers, etc, all will stay in place.

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Sanjay

I guess my bottom line would be (regardless of feature set) and the Beta Testers are very encouraging here:

Can it make me catch a breath, when I'm alone and crank, The Piano "The Heart Asks Pleasure First", - or on a single Violin note, held and spiraling up...

Then I’d be a happy camper abit!

Lena,

For that new car you should take a peek at a Saab 9-5 Aero wagon.

[This message has been edited by bstan (edited February 28, 2002).]

Thanks Bstan,
I'll take a look at it. My husbands pushing for the vette, but I just can't figure out how to stuff trees and manure into it.

SLL:

The new 9-5 Aero is nicer, but the Audi A6 Allroad is much cooler. It would be my manure hauler of choice: A screaming 2.7 turbo engine, adjustable ground clearance, Quattro all-wheel drive and loads of room. Only a bit more than the Saab, but still less than the 'vette.

And don't forget the extra-cool Xenon (HID) headlights.

Yep. When you have to haul manure, its best to haul it fasssssst.

Hello

Just wanted to add some observations. Warning: I have a tendency to overexplain...

Yes, it is amazing, how subtle are the factors that can influence each of us, and how that *one particular thing* in the midst of hundreds of design features can just throw you completely off track sometimes...

This thread has made me realize that, similar to BenjaminKing, I've been thoroughly trained by experience to always-always-without-fail turn the volume down manually to a reasonable level as the final step just before hitting the power button (or power-down macro) on shutdown.

Of course, Miss Lena, with your current volume knob, even if you turned it down *every single time* at shutdown, someone could still come by and crank up the knob while the unit was turned off, and it would blast you as soon as you turned it on if you didn’t do the visual check. But check this out: because the Outlaw volume control has no effect when the power is off, there is *zero* chance of anyone turning it up to dangerous levels while the unit is turned off. In other words, if you lower the volume *every time* as the last step before you power down, it can *never* blast you when you first turn it on, even with no visual reference.

Which means: You could (as you mentioned) program a macro to drop the volume substantially as part of the shutdown procedure, BUT - this is the cool part - if you’ve already got ’em trained to *always* use the shutdown macros, and you include the volume drop *only in the shutdown macros*, you would *never* have to worry about the volume being too loud on startup, because it *cannot* move from where it was at shutdown. See?

Does that make sense? Or help at all? It sounds like this type of volume knob might even work out *better* for your situation. The “level check before un-muting” would still be an issue; perhaps you could do a volume-down-then-mute macro, though this kinda defeats the “instant off” nature of the mute button...

Also want to point out that my understanding of the Outlaw “linear volume” control is that it actually provides *much* finer control than a standard potentiometer, even if it doesn’t have a cool light. One reason is demonstrated in JeffLH’s post: it takes the Outlaw volume a full 2.5 revolutions to go from minimum to maximum volume, compared to much less than a full revolution of usable rotation for a fixed knob. Plus, the “linear volume” concept supposedly gives you a smooth volume increase through the full range of the knob (perhaps JeffLH can confirm this), as opposed to many other products where you get the majority of your usable volume - from where it’s just audible up until distortion kicks in - in the small space between maybe 7 o’clock and 3 o’clock on the knob. Add it up, and you’ve got 900 degrees of rotation to fine-tune the exact volume you desire, compared to maybe 240 degrees of usable rotation with a pot. That’s over three times the resolution: for each “unique volume position” on Matthew Hill’s knob, the Outlaw actually has a range of three+ positions (not pickin’ on ya, bro, just making the point). This should give us much more sensitive control over very small volume changes while completely avoiding the “oversteer” gonk mentions, where the inertia in the knob motor moves it farther than you’d like when trying to make subtle adjustments - happens on my Onkyo receiver all the time (not fer long, though, heh heh heh).

Just my $.02...I could be on crack tho...


Edit: Apparently I really am on crack, just noticed that you're not sure if you can make a volume adjustment part of the macros. Hey, if you can train them to use the macros, you can train them to lower the volume manually every time, as an integral part of the shutdown process. Do it a couple of times in a row, and it becomes a habit.

Hope I haven't totally wasted your time...



[This message has been edited by ampeg66 (edited March 01, 2002).]

Using the knob or the remote you can adjust in 1dB increments, so I'd say you've got dozens of usable volume points. Each time you press the volume up/down buttons on the remote, you get that minimum 1 dB increment. Very nice! Of course, when the wife says to lower it and I tap the remote once or twice, she's not amused. ;-)

I've never had a remote with macros - can you program a duration for the volume drop, or would you have it send multiple down commands at 1dB each?



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JeffLH

All input is always greatly appreciated! I prefer to ‘blank slate’ and ponder facets of all I view/hear/see.
The plus of having the knob inactive with power off, does not apply here, as we really never muck with it physically therefore in that scenario it is never accidentally spun up. I have run into over steer on many occasions trying to keep the TV audio low with too few incremental choices, but never thru my current receiver. Additional range in the dB’s would probably be appreciated once I had access but currently find no fault with my more limited range on the potentiometer.

Haven’t kept my promise to Sanjay yet to cover up the view, but that’s a needed experiment, as the visual ck. is an unconscious action. I was hoping not to drag out the dratted remote manual, (very obtuse), until new components needed to be added. After a first read went ‘huh’, and after second perusal just starting punching buttons and finally tamed it.

I did think about playing with it again, since the Sony is limited to 3 main system control macros, and someone (Owls W ,Sandman,or ?) gave me the idea that other source selection buttons might accept a whole chain of macros, for further tweaking. Although, it’s possible to lose memory of where selection’s live, if you don’t use them frequently. Since I never want to touch other remotes, I have all the DVD micro adjustments spread across the VCR2/VCR3/DVD source buttons now.
I know the Pronto seems popular, I have the Sony, which I picked up before I saw other choices available in a commander. I have that vague memory that the Sony would not incorporate mute, or vol. +/- in the macros. If it's doable, have no idea if it would take a 'duration' signal or incremental 'taps'. Possibly this weekend I can sort it out and post on abilities.

On the pronto in the macro you would likely just put 'volume down' a total of 10 times to get a 10 dB drop on the 1050. The only things I've noticed that use a time relation are the beeps and pauses you can implement, but I've not really messed with them that much.

S.

How long would it take the Pronto to transmit that macro?

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net