Not to get people mad at me, but I was just wondering if the beta test really helped Outlaw at all, other than recently getting us all to shut up quite a bit about the very close (yet sooooo very far) release date?

I know some(all?) of the testers found some problems in thier units, but then they seemed to say that when they told Outlaw about them, Outlaw told them they'd already known about them.

I guess they "could've" found problems Outlaw didn't find, but did they?

Maybe I missed it, but did any tester find anything that Outlaw didn't already know about?

Also, what's with the 5 beta tester's being only 4 testers, and then really more like only 3 testers since the last one (is his name Gene?) the Lexicon guy didn't seem to get his till the testing was pretty much over and the testers were released from their N.D.A. agreements?

He, like the other testers, are giving out good info about how the unit performs, and nothing against them at all, but did the 950 really have anything that needed to be tested by then? He didn't get one with a better tuner in it or something did he? Not that I heard.

It just seems like Outlaw was getting some good word out there about the 950's performance more than doing the actual 5 person beta test they got hundereds of people to sign up for.

Also, I thought that delay for getting the 950 to work with the audio on some new dvd's like JP3 was smart, but then I heard that it only effects a few discs, and no further ones'll be made like that? Is that right??

If that's true, it kinda seems dumb to worry about a few dvd's when they'll still play with one of the other audio tracks, and since this thing's decked out with DPL2 and everything else, I now think the delay was worse than the 'getting it all right' approach.

Besides JP3 stunk. Great audio/video quality, but it's as horrible as JP2 was. And wasn't Atlantis one of the prob. discs too? That stunk just as bad. Such a horrible story and lousy low grade animation (where does Disney put all that money, 'cuz it ain't into art or script work), who cares if one of the audio tracks doesn't play right? Everything else you own and will own in the future will.

Guess I'm just frustrated here and stiring up trouble 'cuz Outlaw said we'd be getting our 950's much sooner than we'd guess, which I think no one could possibly agree with by now.

I've been a strong supporter of their very open P.R. reports (till recently), and understood/believed the reasons for the delays starting with the October release delay, but they sure have given several impressions over the past couple months that we were very, very close to actually getting this thing, and I know there's lots of us out there have this same 'impression'.

Every few weeks it sounds like it's 'only a few weeks away'.

But I guess beggars can't be choosers.

If I could afford to be ticked off I guess I'd get the Anthem, or a used Lex., but for that kinda money you gotta be really really mad at Outlaw!
Which I'm not.
But I am kinda ticked.

And just to save myself the trouble later.... thanks for your response gonk.

I work for a dotcom. Actually, this is my second dotcom. The first one could have made me rich, as I wasn't exactly in on the groud floor, but maybe floor 3 or 4 (maybe the 150th person to come on board... I had 25,000 options). But it didn't, it went bust. That's what most dotcoms do.

So this is my second dotcom. Why did I do it again? Well, because I didn't lose anything from the first, only the potential that would have been there. I lost my job but I found another. Had a few offers, some safe (banks) some not (dotcoms). So I decided to roll the dice again. The more times you roll, the more your chances are of having your number come up.

What does this have to do with Outlaw? I'm getting to that.

So, I make decent money at this dotcom. Not as much as the first (about 75%) but still good money. Enough to afford a nice car (Miata), a nice apartment in the suburbs, and some HT stuff. But not enough for an Anthem or a B&K or a 50" plasma screen.

But I'm in on THE ground floor with this dotcom. I was the second employee, but the first one quit a while ago so now I'm the top dog. If this takes off my salary for the past few years won't even matter.
And if this dotcom goes bust too, then I'll just find another dotcom, and keep doing that until I have a wife and two kids and need a steady, dependable income. Or until I get rich. Whichever happens first.

So, the point is, Outlaws, if you get the 950 out the door before my company takes off, I'll be happy to send you my money. If my company takes off first, well, then you know who's going to get my money.

I'm pulling for you, Outlaws, I really am. I like your philosophy, your products, and your quality of service. And I understand the reasoning behind the delays, and sympathize with you for it. But there will be a day when I WILL buy an Anthem or a B&K. And as for your next few products... well, there's a much better chance I'll be buying a DLP or a DVD or a high-end pre/pro from you, when those come out, if I already have a 770 and a 950 in my system and I want the labels to match.

I was asked to specifically look at usability - and of course to report any bugs I found along the way. I think they thought they'd corrected most things during alpha.

Yeah, it was frustrating to find some things the first two beta testers had already reported. The Outlaws didn't tell me anything until after I'd found those things. I also found a real show-stopper that the Outlaws didn't know about, but manufacturing had already corrected.

Then I reported a couple of things as bugs, like the mute disengaging when switching inputs, and was told that they were features.

I do have two more bug reports in that they said they're investigating. Hopefully these have already been fixed too - but I'll keep reporting them as I find them, just in case.

I think there's great value in testing with a variety of configurations and a variety of ears. They're also getting many hours of testing for really low $$ - whatever our discount ends up being!

As much as I was looking for bugs or usability issues, I was constantly being asked how it sounded. Our beta units came hot off the assembly bench and we were the first to hear them. I think Scott has one (is that the 5th unit?) but none of the other Outlaws have heard this thing they designed and spec'd out.

I think they've gotten both good and bad press from us. We all seem to love the sound, but we've also reported on the limitations such as the universal speaker level and distance settings.

gotta run - it'll be interesting to read this thread tomorrow!

------------------
JeffLH

Jeff,

Dang. You reported a couple of bug reports in that they haven't said have already been fixed?
Hmm...What are they?? You are allowed to say now right? So please. Feel free. We're listening.

Matthew,

Miata? Nice choice! Got one myself. Forced -in a good way- my wife to learn to drive stick. Now I never get to drive it! Mine's Emerald Green. It's got a nice classy 'mini Jag' look to it. Hope you didn't get rip-off with the Bose package! I put in a set of Focal Poly-Kevlar's for much less. Too bad my little Rockford/Fosgate amp fills half the trunk! -hah

Matthew: If your dotcom hits big, I doubt you'll be satisfied with Anthem or B&K if you can buy Krell, Conrad Johnson, Mark Levinson, or Jeff Roland gear with some nice Revels, Thiels, etc. I've heard some 100k stereos that were unbelievable (and some that actually sounded bad). It's rumored that a doctor bought 5 Mark Levinson 33's (which are individual amps, each weighing several hundred pounds and they run off of 220V) for his surround system.

Anyway, I'm just saying that if your dotcom hits big (like Priceline, for instance), 100k or even 500k might be peanuts for a home theater system.

Azryan:

Mine is Emerald Green, as well. '99, stick, fabric interior.

I did get stuck with the Bose, and some other stuff I didn't want (side sills, etc.) because I had to take one off the lot and they didn't have many on the lot. There was only one dealer close to me, and my '90 Taurus had just blown a head gasket (not worth repairing) and I needed a car ASAP. There were only two with stick and w/o leather, and I didn't want the white one.

Mine also has foglights, but they're dealer installed, not factory, so the switch is a cutout next to the stick shift and blocked by the handbrake. It has a dealer installed alarm, but it's not done very well (the brain is strapped to the bottom of the steering column and easily accessible, and the solenoids they used for the door lock make it kind of stiff).

I would have much preferred a special order car with the stuff that I wanted, but overall I'm still extremely happy with the car. I didn't pay much for the extras I didn't want, as the dealer gave me a decent price break and 0% financing for 3 years. So, it was a good deal. But it does have Bose speakers in it.

Oh, and a pack of cigarettes would take up half my trunk.

Azistoohot:

I disagree. If the Outlaws had their stuff out *NOW*, and I had $500k sitting in the bank from making it with the dotcom, I still think I'd go with the Outlaw stuff. I mean, price (at least value) still matters even if you have more money than you need. I won't be replacing my Miata with a Jaguar because I don't think Jags are a good value even if they are ungodly sexy. I also wouldn't replace a 770 with $5000 monoblocks.

On the other hand, time IS money. I'm waiting for the 950 because I have to; I don't have the money to do anything else. If I had the money now, I'd rather get a decent value, like the Anthem, rather than wait another six months for a great value. But I'd still probably try to get the best value available to me at the time.

Well, I don't know how valuable it is for you folks to hear about bugs that will be fixed before they ship the product. If you heard that 100 things were corrected during beta, would you think it was a buggy product or that it is a well polished product?

But since we're all outlaws here...

The last things I reported were:

- On my unit, the VCR video input and output jacks are reversed. (The audio jacks are fine.)

- The 5-channel stereo mode sends music to the rear center speaker. This might actually be a feature(?) If you only have 5 speakers, you'd tell the 950 and it would turn off that rear output. And if you have 6 speakers, you'd never want to use the "5 Stereo" processing mode. Maybe they want the 950 to use all the available speakers? Or, maybe it's just a bug after all!

- The VFD Brightness and OSD Timeout settings are not saved when you do a hard power-off using the rear power switch.

------------------
JeffLH

[This message has been edited by JeffLH (edited February 26, 2002).]

JeffLH

Thanks for the info -- I am curious to see what sort of things were uncovered. I'd also be curious to know what sort of experience Pat (psklenar) had when he beta-tested the 1050 two years ago, since the question of the role of beta testing in the design of products like this has been raised.

The Outlaws did mention some extra-careful checking of the early production units in the last newsletter, which would make sense if somebody got a beta unit with reversed video inputs/outputs on the VCR source. It looks like most of the internal connections are on PCB's, but there may still be some individually-made connections and somebody at the factory might have had a dislexic moment when making some of those video connections in Jeff's unit. Did the problem affect composite or S-video (or both)? Dan Hitchman also noticed a possible problem with the rear panel silkscreen ( this thread ) missing labels for in and out on the tape loop. The "5 stereo" mode is sort of odd -- I'd be curious to hear what the Outlaws told you on that one. It could be that the "5 stereo" and "7 stereo" are the same, and that which mode you use is determined by how many speakers you have?

As for the 5 beta testers that became 4, one of the beta testers (don't remember who) indicated that there were to be 5, but one fell through at the last minute. I don't know why Gene was about a week late getting his. The bulk of the testing took place in-house with the alpha units, but there is always value in getting a fresh set of eyes involved and putting a product in a real-world setting. That's a big part of what I think the Outlaws were after with the beta test.



I'm sorry, azryan, was I supposed to post in this topic?

------------------
Gonk

If I had the money, a Krell processor would be at the bottom of the list -- I would stick with my Lex MC-12B.



------------------
Nigel Pond
SMR Home Theatre
SMR Forums
SMR Group
HighFidelityReview

I think in the ideal world, a beta test would reveal no problems at all, as the alpha test (or perfect design/manufacturing) would have cured them all. I think, from the fact that many of the testers were getting the "we know that and have fixed it already" seems to indicate that the alpha was pretty successful. I think back to some of the computer programs I have gotten in beta form. Ouch. I don't even think they try the software themselves sometimes. . . just compile and release. Of course I'm joking, but if you want to read some real fun beta tester info, do a newsgroup search on beta versions of operating systems.

The only question I have is why, if Outlaw knew the problems, didn't they fix them before the beta units went out? Maybe the time constraints rushed them a little, but I'd hope to beta test the 'real' unit, not the 'almost' unit. I've even seen some magazine reviews of various products where the reviewer would comment about some malfunction and then he'd say the new units are already fixed. Seems like suicide to me, but if that's how the game gets played, so be it.

I think the most interesting reads will be when the first 50 people have theirs and spend 6 days locked up in a dark room because they are so into it. That should make for a really good read.

S.

Jeff,
I hope that stuff's already fixed, but since I'm not listening to my 950 right now, I've gotta wonder if they missed any of that stuff you caught.

Matthew,
Ha! It sounds like we got almost the same deal! I got one of that last '00's when the '01's came out (w/o leather and 4 year 0% int.).
A funny note... the models that don't have the Bose cd deck and speakers come with... Bose speakers and cd deck! It just doesn't have Bose printed on it, and it doesn't come with the top of the door tweeters (they just cover the holes w/ cloth!)
Somebody else's gotta be making that cd deck, but they do call is a Bose model. Wierd.

I totally agree with you about not wanting to blow a ton of money even if you had it to blow. Sounds like you try to get something as nice as you can, but without ignoring the word 'value'.

Azistoohot,
1) Anyone who thinks 500K is peanuts for an HT is far too rich! And you can have a world class system for waaaaaaay less bones than that anyway! Those are rip off 'installer' prices.

2) Az ryan has to disagree with your moniker. Everywhere else is too cold! -heh
Have you escaped the desert or are you just complainin' 'bout it? I escaped the tundra of WI so I can't whine about the summer here. 118's a lot closer to perfect than -70 w/ the wind chill (the day I decided to escape!)!

Jim,

heheh- I took the chance that you'd post. I've yet to find a post you haven't started or replied to so it wasn't a bad bet. -heh

500k may be an over exaggeration, but 100k really isn't. My boss knows a woman who was employed by Priceline and she sold her stock for over 4 million. My roommate worked where Priceline is, and he said that he saw at least 4 Porsche 911s there (which are 69k stripped). These people made quite a bit of money. If you've made 4 million through a dotcom, buying a house for 1 million or 2 million is a distinct possibility, and 100k for a home theater system in a 2 million dollar house is about right. And, it's easy to get 100k for home theater. For instance, a Proceed home theater system would cost you 5k for the amps (assume 5 channel), 5-6k for the preamp, and 5-6k for the DVD/CD player. Then, add some nice revels at 15k for fronts and 7.5k for rears (I'm not sure what the center costs), and you're up to 45k just for sound. Then add a 30k projector, screen, and scaler, and you're nearing 80k. Then, you still have to add cables and other hardware, a fancy $1000 remote to control everything, fancy (remote-controlled) drapes...

Personally, I'll never be able to afford that, but I'll also never have stock in a dotcom.

About the beta test -- I'm wondering why there were so few beta testers. I would think that 10 beta testers would be the minimum necessary, given the complexity of this type of equipment. Heck, I just tried the THX button on my Onkyo for the first time last night, and I've had this system for months. There's just too many features with most systems these days to test everything. Additionally, the more beta testers, the more weird equipment that may or may not like the Outlaw stuff. For instance, I was using my friend's Proceed amp for a while, and my Onkyo's 12V output operates differently than what the Proceed amp was designed to accept. The Onkyo kept turning the Proceed amp off and on at weird times. This type of error is very hard to find without a lot of people testing.

Are any of the beta testers using the "Triple Xover" function of 950's bass management?

Could those that have describe their speaker's frequency response specs, and the 950 xover setups and experiences with different xover frequencies they have tested/used?


Jeff, I did read about your use of the Triple with your Snells. I'm trying to configure for Dynaudio Contours.
bstan

[This message has been edited by bstan (edited February 28, 2002).]

Merc (John Morris) at Home Theater Forum has used the triple crossover some (Robert Fowkes has a THX speaker setup, so they're all designed for an 80Hz crossover). You can see his comments here .

------------------
Gonk

Speaking of dot coms, last fall I heard a presentation by Jakob Neilsen who is renown expert on web usability. His recommendation on testing for the web was to get five users and have them do actual work on your web site. By the time they run through their test, you will know if you are on the right track.

What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China? IMHO, I think it shows you don't need a huge number of beta testers to run an effective evaluation program, but it is crucial to test with real users. Doing so avoids "blind spots" that can frequently happen with internal testing teams. The real highly technical/methodical testing done in house. So what you are doing with the outside testers is checking for the end user/equipment interface rather than minutia. If you pick your beta testers well they will pick up on much of the detailed testing done in house, but they will occsionally pick up on other problems (usually minor and sometimes major).

Yes, they are late -- there's no denying that. But I have no any interest in dealing with any product that is under cooked. I manage an IT group that has an 800 node network and I don't like dealing with flakey or quriky equipment or software in our networks. We deal every day with PC software that is pushed out on the public way too early and makes us and our end users feel like we beta testers instead of end users. I don't have time or the desire to deal with stuff that works sometimes and not others. I want to be able to stick any disc in to my DVD or LD or whatever player and not have to worry about if this is one of the titles that does or doesn't work. So I see it as a good thing that Outlaw pulled their product back to get it closer to perfect.

I suppose if they go through all of this and the 950 still has significant problems with the feature set they have committed to on the web site then I would have a legitimate beef with them. But that's not happening right now. I for one am willing to wait for a clean build.

Just my $.02.

Eric