This is my first post. I usually just enjoy reading and learning. I am seriously considering becoming a member of the outlaw family and getting on the reservation list for a 950 and a 750 or 770. Have a question though that I hope someone can help me with. I know the 950 isn’t out yet but, hopefully someone can shed some light on my dilemma. I just ordered Def Tech BP 2000TL’s, should be getting them next week. So, I haven’t heard them in my room yet. A lot of Def Tech owners swear that these speakers need to wired “full range” using a Y adapter and the pre out/ main in’s on the processor or receiver and then run speaker cable to the mid inputs on the speakers. The 950 doesn’t have any pre out/main in connections. Does anyone know another way to accomplish this configuration? I don’t know if this will be an issue yet as I haven’t heard them in my house just running speaker cable alone to the speakers. Any suggestions would be appreciated! Also, what about the LFE output. Will any of this info be lost without running a dedicated sub via the sub output. All the bass will be in the front three channels.

Because it's not a receiver, it's a pre-amp/processor so it only has pre outs.

What's wrong with just hooking them up via speaker wires? Instead of complicating things unnecessarily with Y connectors and what-not, you might first want to try the simple method. The crossovers that are specifically designed into these speakers will do a better job of routing various frequencies to the proper drivers that some external crossover (like the one built into the 950).

This depends on how flexible the 950 is. In the set-up menu there may be a provision to configure for a speaker set-up that doesn't include a subwoofer; in which case that information should get folded into the front L/R channels. We'll know for sure once we get a peek at the 950's instruction manual.

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Sanjay

The Def Tech BP2000TL's have built-in powered subs, don't they? A quick check of DefTech's site indicates that they are tri-wirable and have separate LFE inputs. I'm not sure what other DefTech owners do, but I would tend to go with speaker cable to the binding posts (don't think I would tri-wire them, but I might bi-wire and jumper the mid and high with a good scrap of speaker cable instead of the jumper bar) and then put a Y-splitter on the LFE output of the pre/pro and send the LFE to both speakers' LFE inputs. That way, the powered subs in each tower would be getting the LFE signal.

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Gonk

Using the 950 Gonk is 100% correct (as usual)! Some processors have a R/L sub output. In that case you would not use a 'Y' adaptor, just direct connection. As far as bi wiring --- only do this if you have the same type (and length) of cable for each 'wire'. If you use different cable/length you can incorporate a VERY SLIGHT time delay between each wire which will not be audible except a slight loss in stereo imaging (sound staging).

Considering that the signal is traveling through the wires at over 186,000 MILES PER SECOND, how much of a time delay do you think will occur for it to result in a loss, however slight, in sound stage imaging? For example, to introduce just 1 millisecond of delay you'd need one speaker cable to be over 980,000 feet longer than the other.

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Sanjay


[This message has been edited by sdurani (edited February 09, 2002).]

Right idea, wrong numbers I believe. After making the same mistatement a week or so ago, I went back to the books.

The signal is traveling through the wires at about .3 speed of light not speed of light itself.

None the less, it's still too fast for cable length to make an audible difference in delay.


brianca

It'll just throw things slightly out of phase. How badly, I don't know... but probably not enough to make an audible difference.

A tone near the edge of human hearing, at 20 kHz, will be 180 degrees out of phase if you introduce a delay of 1/40,000 sec. Using Brianca's .3 number, that still leaves about 8200 feet difference.

So, it's still out of the ballpark by about two orders of magnitude.

Thanks for the info. The reason I asked the question is because some “owners” and “magazine reviewers” have recommended the Y connectionmethod as far as the powered subs go. While others have not. The dealer recommends the simple speaker connection method, however, I was in the same dealership a few years ago and they were recommending the Y connection. (?) The LFE input on the speakers is “full range”. It takes whatever bass it wants and doesn’t pass along the other signals. Initially I am going to run just speaker cable and see what I think. As for the 950, I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t “limited” to the speaker cable only option. I believe I could run Y splitters from the 950’s L and R outputs, connect one end to the LFE and the other to the 750 or 770. Then from the amp with speaker cable to the mid connection (or even bi-wire to the high connection) of the speakers. Am I right, in this assumption?

Please don't take this personally, but I did say "VERY SLIGHT" and "NOT AUDIBLE" except "for a slight decrease in stereo imaging". Most systems will not notice any difference. Some systems I have encountered are so close to loosing this sound staging (instrument and vocal placement) that cable type and length has effected imaging to an audible degree. Differences such as having one cable made of silver and one made of copper can really have SIGNIFICANT effects on this imaging. Sometimes statistics and data facts only depict part of the story. A great deal of life is 'intangible', at least by my experience!

Widget, I am not sure, but am in hopes that the LFE output on the 950 will have the ability to disengage the bass management. Since it has not been released yet I don't know. If it can you could 'Y' off the 950 LFE output and use the speaker cross over. You could then run the remainder of the speaker from the 770 or 750 amp (bi-wiring if you desire!). Even if the 950 does not have the ability to disengage the bass management this might still be your best bet, you will just need to 'play' with the settings for the best sound. Your suggestion of using the 'RCA" out from the R/L on the mains on the 950 (using a 'Y' connector) may or may not work to your satisfaction. Some systems set up like this can provide feed back to the amplifier resulting in a 'hum' or 'hissing' sound. I have seen some systems work great set up this way, though! A lot of HiFi is trial and error! A lot of complex interactions exists between various components!



[This message has been edited by Slick1964 (edited February 09, 2002).]

Thanks for the info Slick. Didn't even think about any resulting hum or other interactions! I agree with that the LFE output on the 950 would be the way to go. Just have to wait and see (like everyone else) what the 950 will actually do. Shouldn't be much longer!!!

All of the things you are talking about are measurable. Different cable mediums will hae different properties, including transmit speeds. But the transmit speed differences would be so small that imaging would not be affected. There are other differences that could cause an audible difference.

Even if you were to assume that you could create sub-microsecond delay into a system with a 10' longer cable, the variance created once the signal is turned to sound waves and passes to your ears would be far greater.


brianca..

I've never seen a wire as slow as 30% of C. I don't think your referring to copper wire. Most interconnects are 70% to 80% of C. That's still at least 210 million meters per second. Even at 30% of C that's 100 million meters per second. We are talking LFE audio which is at most 150-200 Hz (Bose). You'll get bigger offsets from the speaker positions themselves than from miles of interconnect delays.
Imaging and soundstage? I'd be more concerned with the cheap amps used for the built in subs.

....cheap amps used for built in subs.

Ouuuuuuch!!!

You're right, did I write that. That 5-10 nS of difference in delay will kill the imaging of the deep bass much more than a class D amp with $15 worth of parts.
I know nothing of Def Tech products other than where they are sold. Speakers have a huge markup. How do they compare with ACI's lineup sold online only? Are they class D or maybe a "sunfire" amp? In any case the power supply of a decent amp is not very practical in a speaker and not that cheap. The amps themselves are pretty cheap with a good 400+ watt amp setting you back less than $200, parts cost. All that brings the cost up to a point most consumers won't spend on speakers. That's why class D is attractive. In all fairness the distortion at 80 Hz and below is pretty high on even the most expensive speakers and will swamp out any non-linearity from whatever amp is driving them, aside from tubes of course.
I was really pinging Slick1964 on his comment on delay and imaging. Deep bass is pretty much non-directional therefore imaging and soundstage are irrelevant as pointed out in a previous post. None of this is really helpful to the original post so I will go back to lurking.

I will just keep quiet then (of course after I say one more thing!!!)!! All I know is what I have audibly experienced in the past! If you want to quote specifications and data I can do that as well. After all, I have an engineering degree! In fact, by all specification accounts most solid state amps will outperform vacuum tube amps. I feel that (unless your speakers are inefficient and have varying impedances through their frequency response) most 'tube' amps are superior to solid state in terms of pleasurable sound quality! I come to this conclusion after auditioning various solid state and vacuum tube amps over the last 25 years. When I first started my journey in stereo I would (and did) quote specifications and data, and wound up buying solid state equipment against the recommendations of my dealer and my ears. I had just graduated from engineering school and all that was important was statistics! I now know better! What a true audiophile learns to do is to listen with their ears and not their mind (which is full of 'useless' specification and data). Facts and data are great for initial designing of equipment and structure, but for fine tuning one must use their heart and soul, not their head. Once your heart says 'THIS IS GREAT' then invite the head to the party so it can figure out why 'THIS IS GREAT' and apply to future experiences and pass this experience to future generations and try to statically explain why 'THIS IS GREAT'!
Anyhow, what do I know? I am just an old coot who wants great sound and a chance to pass down my experiences to others interested in this obsession! My experiences dictate that it is best to eliminate any unnecessary variables from any equation, especially if the cost and effort is minimal. Using the same type and length of cable would fall under this category! No since in tossing in one more unknown into an untried system unless substantial cost savings can be reaped. And yes, my ears have told me that in fact these cabling variables DO matter, although my head agrees with you.

I'm not sure how the DT's compare with the ACI's. Many people seem to like the ACI's though. I must admit, I didn't really compare the 2000's with many other speakers. I bought some DT BP10's about 8 years ago and have been very happy with them. Believe it or not I've been happy with the sound quality and the sound stage (bi-polar) just using two speakers. I know I have been missing a lot, especially since the advent of DD and DTS ect. I'm finally ready to take the full surround sound plunge!!! Hence, my interest in the 950 and outlaw amp combo. Needing more bass and more speakers (10's going to the rear) I ordered the 2000's along with a matching center channel. I feel like I got a decent "deal" on the speakers, 30% off list. I was happy with the non-powered 10's and have very high expectations for the 2000's, as I have not heard them in my room yet. After I decide (and purchase) the "components" that will actually drive the speakers (and my bank account fills back up) I'll add some side speakers for 7.1. My impression is that the outlaw products will have outstanding performance and a great price! Now to the matter of speaker wire length. . .

Slick,

I agree that cables make a difference and not all of those differences can be shown on a scope. If that's the argument you're making, you should say that it effects the sound but not cite measureable reasons why (time delay). When you say that the sound change is due to time delay in the longer speaker, you are saying that it is measureable, unless you are saying that signal speed can't be measured.


brianca..

I wonder how much out of phase it takes to hear the difference. If it were only a small portion of the actual wavelength, then the number would get smaller, of course. When thinking of the system as a single sine wave, it is un-likely, but what about the fact that the system is an extremely layered complex sine wave? How would this minimally existent phase shift change the result?

You would also have a (very small) change in resistance, inductance and capacitance. How would these very small changes effect the flow of energy? Would the resistance of the longer wire change the parallel flow that much? Would the capacitance of the shorter wire change the reaction of the crossover? Who knows.

A gut feeling would be to say that none of it really matters at all and you could indeed have a 1 foot wire running in parallel to a 50 ft wire. But if some people hear a difference, and they might, then why not just say forget it and get speaker wires that are the same length. Its not that hard and it in fact would be insurance, as you have reduced the variation of more properties, even if that variation would be nearly impossible to quantify.

S.