Suddenly realized I have major confusion over hardware specs on "driven" channels. Not sure how to even phrase what I'm trying to clarify. Since I have 7.1 speakers now. What I intend is hardware for max separation of these channels regardless of decoders. Although I know the two are intertwined in practicality since you still need software,(and DVD encoded discs) (8?discreet channel capable DVD's are not recorded yet) to have full use of every speaker ie: tracking movement in 360 degrees. Since manuf. list specs in no particular order, in various confusing terminology (to me) I suddenly realized when looking at specs on the HK AVR 8000 that what I thought was 7.1 (as in speaker channels) (is 7.1 also referred to as 8 channel?) also has a stat. stating 110 watt x 5, so really the 7.1 listed is Decoders onboard only? giving a 7.1 effect and this IS a 5 channel receiver? What different connection stats. will cue me into whether these units are 5,6, or more channel receivers? When the Pioneer VSX-49TX mentions 7.1 Multi Channel Inputs & 7.1 Channel Pre-outs, does that mean 8 separated channels vs the 5 in the HK?
I'm running into the same foggy brain when looking at pre/pros.
Ex: The 950 is called a 7 channel pre-pro am I looking at the A/V number? on this unit to show the hardware channels driven? Since I seem to have discovered the HK is only a 5 channel receiver (though to a layperson (me) appearing as 7.1 SEPERATE CHANNELS at first)and by those stats. is the Pioneer a true 8 channel? If you think in terms of 7 for fronts, backs/sides, centers. With an assumption that the .1 is powered. Is THAT effectivly 8 seperatly powered channels?
I have never had the fun of hooking up cables, so looking at outputs/inputs & digital/analogue stats. on these products to discifer the hardware channel capibilites is beyond me.
I'm not sure if I've even clarified what I'm trying to ask. Let me explain how foreign the back of these units are to me.
I don't even KNOW what it is the speaker wire connects to..imputs/outputs digital/analg?
I' cant tell by looking at the connection stats on these units (unless the manf somewhere clearly states 7 sep channels driven) whether they are 6,7,8 separate (hardware?) channels vs 5 hardware channels with 7.1 matrixed sound?
Lost in a new world without the guidebook? Thanks for any help!!

Confusing, isn't it? I'm not sure if I can help much here, but I'll give it a shot.

First, 6.1 / 7.1 / 8 channels and discrete/matrix... If you see 8 channel somewhere, they are probably referring to 7.1 (seven full-range speakers and one ".1" subwoofer channel). If you see 6.1 discrete, they mean that they've added a surround back channel (like the center surround that the Outlaw Model 1050 receiver has) that has a discrete signal (not extracted from the regular surround channels) -- this requires software support, and is basically limited to DTS-ES Discrete. The other 6.1 and 7.1 surround modes are "matrixed" -- it's like the old Dolby Pro-Logic days, where you took the left and right channels and "hid" center and surround channels in the recording, only now they "hide" a surround back channel in the left and right surround channels. Also, most "7.1" material is sending the same signal to both the surround back speakers (channels #6 and 7, let's say). Lastly, the ".1" subwoofer channel is amplified at the subwoofer typically.

With that garbage aside (and it is sort of messy these days), let's get to the nitty-gritty of receivers and pre/pros. The Harman/Kardon AVR-8000 you refer to is not a pre/pro, it is a receiver -- it has an amplifier built-in. It seems rather weird, but it is only a five-channel amp, so you'll need a separate amp to drive surround back speakers. The Pioneer VSX-49TX is also a receiver, and it has a 7-channel amp built in (no need for the separate amp for the surround back speakers). None are "8 channel" because of the fact that the sub is assumed to have its own amp built in. A receiver will list "channels driven" to indicate how many channels of amplification are built in. Each speaker you have will need to have its own channel of amplification.

The Outlaw Model 950 does not list any "channels driven" or any rating of watts per channel because it is a true pre/pro only, not a receiver. A pre/pro contains no amplification at all. It must be connected to separate amplifier(s).

Connections? Hoo-boy. Try skimming through here , specifically the "receiver and pre-amp" and "cables" sections. Basically, though, speakers are connected to the output of an amp of some sort (either a separate amp or the amp section of a receiver); the connections won't show up on a list of inputs and outputs for a receiver because they are covered by the number of amplification channels.

I think I probably just created more questions than I gave answers, but it's a start, hopefully.

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Gonk

OK let me take a stab at this. First of all the HK to which you refer is a 7.1 channel reciever, however you need an external amp for the two rear surrounds. In other words the reciever has 5 amplifier channels and "outputs" for for two more channels.

7.1 and 8 channel are the same thing, due to SACD and DVD-A some manufactures have gotten away from the 5.1 or 7.1 thing because some of these new formats have 6 full range channels. Not 5 channels and an LFE.

Actually I believe both of the new formats are 6.1 channel but the DD version splits the signal to two rears.

Hope this help a little.

I must have been typing while you were sending, and you did a much better job explaining.

I've got another question. What makes the 750 a 7.1 receiver and not a 6.1? As far as I know, none of its surround modes will produce other than a mono rear signal.

If they'd kept the 7.1 inputs, that would have left open the possibility of bringing a 7.1 signal into it... but as I see it, those rears are strictly mono. Am I wrong?

I've been assuming that a "7.1 receiver" had separate amplification for two surround back channels (like the Pioneer VSX-49TX, since we've already mentioned it here), while a "6.1 receiver" just had amp for one surround back (like the Model 1050).

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Gonk

OK, while we're on the subject (sort of) of receivers and pre/pros and features and such, are there any receivers or pre/pros that are missing from the oft-changed chart (spawned by this old thread) that should be there? I'm thinking of the Anthem AVM-2, the new Denon 5803, the new Pioneer VSX-49TX (since it's turning a lot of heads these days), and maybe the Classe SSP-30 (pricey...) and the 1050 for grins.

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Gonk

Gonk,

I noticed you haven't listed any of the Adcom processors (GTP-750, GTP-830, ...). These are actually the closest (cost-wise) competitors I know of to the Outlaws. B-stock 750s are selling at audioadvisor.com for $995, new 830s for a few hundred more.

Sounds good, I'll see what I can come up with there...

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Gonk

I had down that receivers have built in amp vs pre/pro which have to have sep power.

Receivers.
Okay, so bing a total layperson I pick up the HK (seeing 7.1 on the box) and bring it home to my 7.1 speakers and unless the SP thinks to tells me, "By the way little lady you need another 2-channel amp with that setup". I just have 2 dead boxes (speakers) hanging on the wall. This unit will not "matrix" sound to 7.1 speakers as it sits because there is no power to run 2 of them. I think I've got it on (receivers) for a 7.1 system, watch out for # of amp channels on board vs preamps out. (Pioneer has it onboard for 7.1, HK does not as a standalone).

Decoders.
"Discreet" = separate channel information, no matrixing involved. (?)
Okay, if I look at just DECODERS, for 7.1 speaker setup. The most "Discreet" decoder out would be DTS ES 6.1 Discreet. It will send a separate signal to FL,FR,FC,BL,BR,BC and the LFE. And since I have basically (I'll call it) Back center L & R (the 6th/7th speakers) the ES 6.1 discrete will split the signal from the 6th channel equally into the 6th & 7th back L & R center speakers.
Any other decoder currently on the market has the equivalent of 5.1 Discreet channels and thus will matrix the 5th channel into the BL,BR,BCL,BCR equally?

Separates.
In a pre/pro only what connection (what is it called: do I need 8 of: (7 into amplifer/1 into LFE) indicates how many separate channels can be run out of that pre/pro into an amp. And if the pre/pro has 8 (whatever's) going out, then....
Your amp would nned to have 7 (what are they called?) ins if ONE amp is powering (what is it called) out to 7 speakers.
It's the what you ma call its, I need to know since manf (of separate components) seem to assume that if your samrt enough to buy separates, you know what the in/outs configarations are called; to see how many channels a particular unit is capable of processing/powering along the line?

In other words I seem to be lacking knowledge about the hardware side of pre/pros. Maybe I'm mixing up decoding/software capibilties with hardware. Is all channel handling done through the priopertory decoders, say if Lucas came out with THX SUPERKALAFRAGALISTIC (12 discrete channel sound), as long as the pre/pro had that decoder it could run 12 speakers? What would it need in HARDWARE on the ins/outs to run those 12 speakers? For me I trying to figure the hardware requirements of a pre/pro to run 7 channels?
(Shes circling the wagons but can't come in quite yet!)
Thanks for everything everyone and Thanks Gonk for the link I promise to read it 3 times till it sticks!