Suddenly realized I have major confusion over hardware specs on "driven" channels. Not sure how to even phrase what I'm trying to clarify. Since I have 7.1 speakers now. What I intend is hardware for max separation of these channels regardless of decoders. Although I know the two are intertwined in practicality since you still need software,(and DVD encoded discs) (8?discreet channel capable DVD's are not recorded yet) to have full use of every speaker ie: tracking movement in 360 degrees. Since manuf. list specs in no particular order, in various confusing terminology (to me) I suddenly realized when looking at specs on the HK AVR 8000 that what I thought was 7.1 (as in speaker channels) (is 7.1 also referred to as 8 channel?) also has a stat. stating 110 watt x 5, so really the 7.1 listed is Decoders onboard only? giving a 7.1 effect and this IS a 5 channel receiver? What different connection stats. will cue me into whether these units are 5,6, or more channel receivers? When the Pioneer VSX-49TX mentions 7.1 Multi Channel Inputs & 7.1 Channel Pre-outs, does that mean 8 separated channels vs the 5 in the HK?
I'm running into the same foggy brain when looking at pre/pros.
Ex: The 950 is called a 7 channel pre-pro am I looking at the A/V number? on this unit to show the hardware channels driven? Since I seem to have discovered the HK is only a 5 channel receiver (though to a layperson (me) appearing as 7.1 SEPERATE CHANNELS at first)and by those stats. is the Pioneer a true 8 channel? If you think in terms of 7 for fronts, backs/sides, centers. With an assumption that the .1 is powered. Is THAT effectivly 8 seperatly powered channels?
I have never had the fun of hooking up cables, so looking at outputs/inputs & digital/analogue stats. on these products to discifer the hardware channel capibilites is beyond me.
I'm not sure if I've even clarified what I'm trying to ask. Let me explain how foreign the back of these units are to me.
I don't even KNOW what it is the speaker wire connects to..imputs/outputs digital/analg?
I' cant tell by looking at the connection stats on these units (unless the manf somewhere clearly states 7 sep channels driven) whether they are 6,7,8 separate (hardware?) channels vs 5 hardware channels with 7.1 matrixed sound?
Lost in a new world without the guidebook? Thanks for any help!!

Confusing, isn't it? I'm not sure if I can help much here, but I'll give it a shot.

First, 6.1 / 7.1 / 8 channels and discrete/matrix... If you see 8 channel somewhere, they are probably referring to 7.1 (seven full-range speakers and one ".1" subwoofer channel). If you see 6.1 discrete, they mean that they've added a surround back channel (like the center surround that the Outlaw Model 1050 receiver has) that has a discrete signal (not extracted from the regular surround channels) -- this requires software support, and is basically limited to DTS-ES Discrete. The other 6.1 and 7.1 surround modes are "matrixed" -- it's like the old Dolby Pro-Logic days, where you took the left and right channels and "hid" center and surround channels in the recording, only now they "hide" a surround back channel in the left and right surround channels. Also, most "7.1" material is sending the same signal to both the surround back speakers (channels #6 and 7, let's say). Lastly, the ".1" subwoofer channel is amplified at the subwoofer typically.

With that garbage aside (and it is sort of messy these days), let's get to the nitty-gritty of receivers and pre/pros. The Harman/Kardon AVR-8000 you refer to is not a pre/pro, it is a receiver -- it has an amplifier built-in. It seems rather weird, but it is only a five-channel amp, so you'll need a separate amp to drive surround back speakers. The Pioneer VSX-49TX is also a receiver, and it has a 7-channel amp built in (no need for the separate amp for the surround back speakers). None are "8 channel" because of the fact that the sub is assumed to have its own amp built in. A receiver will list "channels driven" to indicate how many channels of amplification are built in. Each speaker you have will need to have its own channel of amplification.

The Outlaw Model 950 does not list any "channels driven" or any rating of watts per channel because it is a true pre/pro only, not a receiver. A pre/pro contains no amplification at all. It must be connected to separate amplifier(s).

Connections? Hoo-boy. Try skimming through here , specifically the "receiver and pre-amp" and "cables" sections. Basically, though, speakers are connected to the output of an amp of some sort (either a separate amp or the amp section of a receiver); the connections won't show up on a list of inputs and outputs for a receiver because they are covered by the number of amplification channels.

I think I probably just created more questions than I gave answers, but it's a start, hopefully.

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Gonk

OK let me take a stab at this. First of all the HK to which you refer is a 7.1 channel reciever, however you need an external amp for the two rear surrounds. In other words the reciever has 5 amplifier channels and "outputs" for for two more channels.

7.1 and 8 channel are the same thing, due to SACD and DVD-A some manufactures have gotten away from the 5.1 or 7.1 thing because some of these new formats have 6 full range channels. Not 5 channels and an LFE.

Actually I believe both of the new formats are 6.1 channel but the DD version splits the signal to two rears.

Hope this help a little.

I must have been typing while you were sending, and you did a much better job explaining.

I've got another question. What makes the 750 a 7.1 receiver and not a 6.1? As far as I know, none of its surround modes will produce other than a mono rear signal.

If they'd kept the 7.1 inputs, that would have left open the possibility of bringing a 7.1 signal into it... but as I see it, those rears are strictly mono. Am I wrong?

I've been assuming that a "7.1 receiver" had separate amplification for two surround back channels (like the Pioneer VSX-49TX, since we've already mentioned it here), while a "6.1 receiver" just had amp for one surround back (like the Model 1050).

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Gonk

OK, while we're on the subject (sort of) of receivers and pre/pros and features and such, are there any receivers or pre/pros that are missing from the oft-changed chart (spawned by this old thread) that should be there? I'm thinking of the Anthem AVM-2, the new Denon 5803, the new Pioneer VSX-49TX (since it's turning a lot of heads these days), and maybe the Classe SSP-30 (pricey...) and the 1050 for grins.

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Gonk

Gonk,

I noticed you haven't listed any of the Adcom processors (GTP-750, GTP-830, ...). These are actually the closest (cost-wise) competitors I know of to the Outlaws. B-stock 750s are selling at audioadvisor.com for $995, new 830s for a few hundred more.

Sounds good, I'll see what I can come up with there...

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Gonk

I had down that receivers have built in amp vs pre/pro which have to have sep power.

Receivers.
Okay, so bing a total layperson I pick up the HK (seeing 7.1 on the box) and bring it home to my 7.1 speakers and unless the SP thinks to tells me, "By the way little lady you need another 2-channel amp with that setup". I just have 2 dead boxes (speakers) hanging on the wall. This unit will not "matrix" sound to 7.1 speakers as it sits because there is no power to run 2 of them. I think I've got it on (receivers) for a 7.1 system, watch out for # of amp channels on board vs preamps out. (Pioneer has it onboard for 7.1, HK does not as a standalone).

Decoders.
"Discreet" = separate channel information, no matrixing involved. (?)
Okay, if I look at just DECODERS, for 7.1 speaker setup. The most "Discreet" decoder out would be DTS ES 6.1 Discreet. It will send a separate signal to FL,FR,FC,BL,BR,BC and the LFE. And since I have basically (I'll call it) Back center L & R (the 6th/7th speakers) the ES 6.1 discrete will split the signal from the 6th channel equally into the 6th & 7th back L & R center speakers.
Any other decoder currently on the market has the equivalent of 5.1 Discreet channels and thus will matrix the 5th channel into the BL,BR,BCL,BCR equally?

Separates.
In a pre/pro only what connection (what is it called: do I need 8 of: (7 into amplifer/1 into LFE) indicates how many separate channels can be run out of that pre/pro into an amp. And if the pre/pro has 8 (whatever's) going out, then....
Your amp would nned to have 7 (what are they called?) ins if ONE amp is powering (what is it called) out to 7 speakers.
It's the what you ma call its, I need to know since manf (of separate components) seem to assume that if your samrt enough to buy separates, you know what the in/outs configarations are called; to see how many channels a particular unit is capable of processing/powering along the line?

In other words I seem to be lacking knowledge about the hardware side of pre/pros. Maybe I'm mixing up decoding/software capibilties with hardware. Is all channel handling done through the priopertory decoders, say if Lucas came out with THX SUPERKALAFRAGALISTIC (12 discrete channel sound), as long as the pre/pro had that decoder it could run 12 speakers? What would it need in HARDWARE on the ins/outs to run those 12 speakers? For me I trying to figure the hardware requirements of a pre/pro to run 7 channels?
(Shes circling the wagons but can't come in quite yet!)
Thanks for everything everyone and Thanks Gonk for the link I promise to read it 3 times till it sticks!

You've got the receiver - pre/pro difference down, but I think we need to throw away the terms "discrete" and "matrix" for a minute -- they're just getting in the way.

The HK AVR8000 is, at least to my knowledge, pretty unusual in the presence of 7.1 surround decoding and only a 5-channel amp. Very strange, indeed. You are correct that if you took an AVR8000 home and tried to hook seven speakers up to it, two speakers would be SOL.

Decoding:
The beginning of the current surround decoding approaches is Dolby Digital, which is a 5.1 system. For our purposes, let's round down on all of this and set the ".1" aside (it can keep "discrete" and "matrix" company in the corner, as they're just cluttering up the party). Dolby Digital (or DD) had five channels: left, right, center, left surround, right surround. Each channel got a separate and distinct signal (the left and right surrounds were playing different things). DTS is basically the same. Back in 1999, Dolby and THX came up with Dolby Digital EX for movie theaters; it added a "rear center" speaker (going up from 5 to 6). This appeared in home theater as THX Surround EX, which is 6.1 -- when it is listed as 7.1, that just means that there are two speakers playing the 6th channel. Outlaw's Model 1050 can mimic THX EX with a proprietary system, which they call Surround 6.1 because they only have a connection for one rear speaker. There are several other systems available now, but they're just doing the same thing in different ways.

Hardware:
A pre/pro will have "pre-amp out" connections (where the pre-amp will output the speaker signals to a separate amp; the speakers would be connected to the amp). For a "7.1" pre/pro, there will be 7 pre-amp outs and one output for the ".1" that we chased off earlier. You would need either one amplifier with 7 channels (one per pre-amp out) or several amplifiers with a total of 7 channels; each channel would then be connected to a speaker. The ".1" goes to a powered subwoofer; unlike the other speakers, it comes with it's own amp, and it's just there for low frequency stuff (to put the "oomph" into the explosions).

How are we doing, Lena? You've definitely got your hands full -- this is a lot to get your hands on at once. You sound like you're catching on, though.

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Gonk

The connection you need to connect the pre/pro to the amplifier is a standard RCA cables. Outlaw's PCA cable is one of the better ones out there, but you can also get them at Radio Shack. You need one cable per channel; they're usually sold in pairs. It's also the same cable you run to your subwoofer, only shorter.

Traditionally in the two-channel world a receiver also included a radio tuner (that's what made it a receiver}, whereas an integrated amplifier omitted the tuner, just switching sources and preamping.

Had to go off a bit, thanks everyone so much!

Must be so dense I'm missing something on the back of these units. The 770 is a 7 channel amp right? And somewhere on something I've seen the the 8 outputs listed in the 770 stats. (7.1) makes sense to me there is a connection out for 7 speakers & one LFE.

But when I'm looking at pics of the back of the 950 should'nt I be seeing 7 or 8 connections, listed "prepro OUT"? As in the Pioneer (8) and not on the HK (5) (I know the Pion/HK are receviers and not pre/pro)

Dosent a pre/pro still need to have the 8 connections "out" to the amp to be 7.1 channels?
Something I'm not spotting on the pics of the back of the 950.
The 950 is a 7.1 pre/pro correct? So are the connections made diffrently than on the 2 mentioned recievers?

(..the brick wall is beginning to retain the imprint of her forehead.....)

If I understand your question correctly, the outputs are there. They are on the bottom right and are listed as "output."

They are Front L&R, Surr L&R, SURR Back L&R, center, and Sub. Those go to the amp.


Is that what you were lookign for?


brianca..

Brianca is correct about the pre-amp outputs on the 950 -- the "7.1" feeds 7 full-range speakers (which needs an amp) and 1 subwoofer (which has an internal amp). The bottom right of those 8 outputs goes to the subwoofer. The other seven would go to the 770, which is a seven-channel amp.

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Gonk

Thanks Brianca..

That must be it. In the written FAQ for the 950 they don't list outs, (mainly "inputs" stats). Whenever I pull up the back pics for the 950 and enlarge (where i can read labels) I am losing the entire right side of the picture (won't load) so I could'nt find them. (That section, in miniature, did not click that it had 8 outs, I thought it was something else)
Since the husband dosent have time to look at stuff now. (keeps saying, "when I see the backs then I'll know) I need to figure out the interconnects shopping list now so that if the 770/950 ship somewhere together, we will be ready to roll on hookups. The old system was a receiver with 5.1 speaker setup so we will be short on connections.
The old Pioneer DVD player I'm running, is DV-C302D. (And I'd rather keep it till firewire & DVD-A/SACD sorts out on mutlifuntionial players)
Am I correct in what I'm trying to absorb that to have the decoding preformed in the 950, I want to order 1 Digital cable for the out from the DVD to the 950 (vs 5.1 analogue out) and that sound wise the Coaxial Digital is preferred by many over the optical?

(Are you guys just born with the electronics handbook included, or is it that I just never cared to look before!)
I do know I can learn though, I'm the only one in this house of males that knows how to program the learning remote. Me & my remote are a package deal!

Try this picture and scroll over to the right (it's really wide). You can see the "Output" plugs.

You're getting a 950/770? You'll be adding two speakers, I'm guessing, so you'll need speaker cable for them. If you already have a powered sub, there's no need to change anything there. You will need 7 analog audio cables to connect the 950 to the 770 (assuming you get two new speakers -- if you don't add any speakers, you'll need 5 cables). You can get Outlaw's PCA interconnects; they are one of the best values in interconnects I've ever heard. As for the DVD player, your DVD player has both coaxial and optical outputs, so you can use either. I have also heard that coax is better than optical, but I've had a hard time proving it to myself.

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Gonk

Yep! 950/770 combo.Been all over map shopping hi-end/used, latest tricks 'ultra 2' on pioneer, but so far keep coming back to Outlaw. Since we haven't upgraded in many years, was tempted to the high-end, but what I see on horizon, tells me that would be throwing my money away on the first 1Gig CPU for 1K when 3 months down road, it will retail 350. Too much playing out, firewire vs the IE..B version coming, (will connectors even be same) DVD-A vs SACD vs combo unit, new digital guts/tech in everything from speakers to players. I was attracted to Lexicon & Bel Canto but I don't want to be shipping things back & forth for upgrades, rather just buy it new fairly loaded, since many changes are in works. The pioneer became attractive because it was status quo, I need to get to furniture store for the seperates with Outlaw. My antique won't hold an 80 pd amp. Hve decided Outlaw is best use of funds for mondern convenience's whether I feverishy upgrade for years or just want to keep it awhile.

I am awfully impatient though, and hard part will be staring at the 950 box with no amp, Boy I hope the 770 is on ship target. Right now I'm just killing time learning this brand new world, but all info I pick up backs the Outlaw choice for me right now.

??I did a quick glance at THX Ultra 2, really not much on it except at THX site, it seems at first glance not too much of a change on the multichannel variations as Pro Logic 2 dicussions talk as if that is a larger leap forward in that arena. Does anyone know if the Cirrus Surround Modes, Cinema & Music are the proprietary equivalent of THX Ultra 2, cinema & music modes or different intent/animal entirely? (Curious)

Yes Gonk, I've already got the 7.1 setup with new wire, and got so tired of sorting out THE BIG WIRE DEBATE, I'm not even going there on interconnects. Just going to trust you and what I learned about quality/sturdy built terminations and go with the Outlaw brand. DONE

Now I just have to get a list made. Gonk if its not too much trouble I saw where someone posted their HT connection capabilities and you gave them a shopping list. In the next few days if I can pull my manuals I'll post that and ask for help if you don't mind terribly?

"I have always depended on the kindness of strangers"!! and I apologize for my site handle "Smart LL"....Funny name for someone who just learned the diff between pre/pro & receivers etc. I own horses, and while staring at the blank 'user name' line for a sec, becuase of the "Outlaw Logo" that name jumped to mind. "Smart Little Lena" was a stud in my area, the 2nd top earning NCHA sire in record, he was a 1 Million + syndicate, who overcame some 'odd's' when he was young.

Thanks to ALL

I think the 950/770 combo is a good choice compared to some of the other things you were looking at (of course, I'm also on the 950 waiting list and already own a 750, so I may be a bit biased...). It sounds like you've got the speakers covered, but if you need a hand putting together a shopping list for other wiring needs just toss up what all you're connecting and we'll see what we can come up with...

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Gonk