Had my LFM(s) packed and stored for 5 months waiting for the HT to get done. When I opened them up and undressed them, the clear film on top came off in layers. Left behind is splotchy film layers here and there. Anybody have that problem and how did you strip it off?

Where were they stored? Was it a conditioned storage space?

Hello MurphyMan,

Please give Steve a call at 866-OUTLAWS. We will help you get this resolved right away.

Scott

I had a similar problem last year when I got my LFM-1 but I wasn't going to breach the subject on the forum until someone else brought it up. Since you have done just that I'll relate my experience. When I unpacked the sub (minutes after receiving it, no storage time) I left the film in place on the top. My thinking at the time was that I would leave it protected in case there were any problems with the unit and it needed to be returned. After using it for about 10 days, maybe 2 weeks, and being satisfied with the performance I felt comfortable removing the film since I would be keeping it. That's when I ran into trouble like you. The film would not peel off very well and would come apart easily. I couldn't even get it all off. Beyond that, it seems like the adhesive used to hold it to the plexiglas top was somehow reactive and had attacked the plastic. Instead of a nice smooth, glass like finish it had a blotchy leather-like appearance. Gentle cleaning gave no improvement. I sent an e-mail to customer service and got immediate response from Steve and Scott. They replaced the sub pronto and were very interested since I had the first complaint on a LFM-1. After some research by Scott he called me back with some feedback on what he learned from their vendor. Yes, the adhesive will start to attack the plexiglas if left on too long. I didn't think 2 weeks was too long and neither did Scott. The Outlaws were not satisfied with this any more than I was and they told me they would be doing some further research and indicated that maybe there would be some production changes. I don't know if that ever came to pass. Since no one brought up the subject in the forum (until now) I suspected that some changes were made, but I just don't know. The replacement unit arrived in good shape and I peeled the protective film off immediately. It came off quite easily and the top looked great.

Now some bad news: Since then there has been a slow deterioration in the appearance in the top of the replacement unit. I now see a greyish blotchiness in the top. I'm guessing that the adhesive used to glue it to the top of the cabinet is reacting with the plexiglas on the underside. The sub is kind of hidden from view so it hasn't been a real big deal for us so we have just been living with it. It's not getting any better though.

Curious side note: When I originally purchased the LFM-1 I got together with a friend and ordered 2 so we could get better pricing. His unit looked good from the start and has not changed (he removed the film immediately). In discussion with Scott we wondered if there was something in my environment that would have accelerated the reaction. But our home is about as typical as you can get and there was no exposure to sunlight, temperature extremes or unusual solvents, fumes or chemicals. The only one wild guess I could come up with is that our family room, where the system is set up, has some wood paneling installed as wainscoting and I've heard that paneling can outgas formaldehyde. Even if that was true in the past I'm not sure if that applies to modern materials (the paneling is probably less than 15 years old). Now I'm curious if other LFM owners are seeing anything like this too?

Tekdredger"
Well after reading your post, I to am auditioning an LFM-1 sub and did not take off the "protective film" from atop the sub...WHAT KIND OF ALIEN GLUE is used to hold this protective wrap on??? It came off about a square inch at a time...ugh!
Any ideas what is best to clean the top...don't want to scratch or cloud the plexiglass top.
Thanks,
Bill

I didn't use anything stronger than Windex on the original unit but that didn't work very well. It seems that the plexiglas was softened by the glue and had a tendency to smear when I cleaned it. Since receiving the replacement I haven't used anything more than Windex on it either but since I removed the film immediately on that one I didn't have the smearing problem. I just took another close look and the leathery look is returning to the top surface now and the grey blotchiness on the underside is spreading. I would guess about 80% of it looks gray. I think the grey look is from very small gas bubbles forming underneath causing a delamination. I think this must be a poor grade of plexiglas that it softens so easily. Ultimately, I would like to be able to remove the plexiglas and replace it with a piece of dark glass.

just a thought but if the "glass" is plastic...Windex might be too strong for it (amonia?)
Thanks,
Bill

Actually we use an "ammonia free" formula. Even at that it's only seen a light spritz a couple of times. It's ususally just dusted off with a soft flannel cloth.

Cool...good to know!
Bill

One of my personal pet peeves with made-in-China products is that the Chinese have not quite mastered "plastics" and other such materials.

Ever notice how much different their shrink-wrap feels?

Or how the plastic in most of their products smells different?

I'm probably more environmentally intolerant to certain products than most and I've had cases where I've felt ill after ripping the shrink-wrap of a blank VHS case. It has only happenned when they are made in China.

It would not surprise me if they also had problems with the adhesives that they use - as well as the plastics.

It's not something that most companies who source their products from China would necessarily either care about - or give much attention to - especially if they had no reason to believe that there might be differences. (Plastic is plastic - right? Not to my nose.)

Jeff Mackwood

I think the type of plastic used depends on what the company decides to spec and not so much of where it is assembled at. If that is true and if the assembling plant switched it with inferior quality plastic for their profit, then there will be litigation of some sort. Just my 2 cents…

When doing video work for trade shows and conventions, I found that many display managers knew that their Plexiglas or Lexan surfaces would deteriorate when cleaners not specifically formulated for such materials were used. Windex was one of the cleaners they avoided. The favorite among several display managers that I knew was a product called Brillianize . There are a couple other products out there for the same purpose, I’m just relating the preference of some display people I knew. These cleaners were not commonly available at the average supermarket or discount store, but could sometimes be found at home improvement centers.

Are there any specific instructions that come with the LFM-1 regarding cleaning of that surface? If not, perhaps Outlaw will advise LFM-1 purchasers of any potential problem with certain chemical or detergent cleaners should Outlaw be able to verify a problem.

I agree that a product specifically developed for cleaning/polishing plastics would be preferred. The products marketed for use on turntable dust covers (can't remember the name just now) would probably be a good choice.

Just so there's no confusion, I do want to emphasize that the problems some of us are experiencing are not caused by cleaning. The troubles are coming before any cleaning is done. That being said, it would definitely be prudent to choose a proper cleaning product for long term care.

Spiker,

Unless a major / well-known manufacturer of plastics / adhesives (Dupont, 3M, etc.) has set up shop in China, the best the Chinese can do is to try to reverse engineer / copy their fomulations. And in my opinion they are doing a lousy job of it.

They are loath to import even semi-finished products - unless those products will then let them manufacture products of their own. And it's only a matter of time before they will copy the finished products (like robotic assembly equipment etc.) that they are now forced to import. Their goal is to import only the rawest of raw products - and do all of the processing / value-adding in-country.

Litigation in China? Gimme a break!

Jeff Mackwood

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tekdredger:
[QB] I agree that a product specifically developed for cleaning/polishing plastics would be preferred. The products marketed for use on turntable dust covers (can't remember the name just now) would probably be a good choice.


i just used a cleaner/polisher for all the plastic lenses on my truck,when i get back over to the garage i'll get the name.it'll keep the surface clean,but it sounds like there are "deeper" issues also.

and staying away from windex is a good idea,i use it for alot of pre-paint cleaning because it is slightly aggressive

Jeff Mackwood:

I was referring to U.S. companies like Outlaw Audio or Nike working with Chinese fabrication / assembly plant. If there is a defect due to unauthorized material swap, then someone will have to folk over to cover the damage. Who will that be? I guess there can be more than one answer.

Spiker,

I was as well.

First, it may not have been an unauthorized swap. It might just be a case of Outlaw getting what it paid for - materials that are inferior to those found in the West. You can hand the Chinese a sample and say "just like this" and they will always say that they can deliver. You can look at a sample that they provide, or even the initial product runs and be happy. But you still run the risk that, with time, you could see more product degradation than what you might normally expect. They simply have not been able to match Western standards for things like plastics and adhesives - where they've developped them themselves. They will eventually - but they're not there yet.

Second, I was referring to Outlaw's chances of ever winning some form of litigation in China - if it ever came to that. It's an inherent risk of doing business over there.

And finally I have no doubt whatsoever that Outlaw will stand behind their product(s) and correct / repair / replace any that are defective. They remain a text book example of great customer relations.

Jeff Mackwood

This issue/concern you guys have rasied regarding the plastic/plexiglas top has me questioning whether I want to purchase this sub. I was just about ready to pull the trigger but now have 2nd thoughts. The posts seem to say that the problem doesn't appear to be cleaning chemical induced but more of an inferior product or an unexplained chemical reaction between the plastic and the adheasive being used to adhear it to the sub. What is Outlaw doing about this? If the material and/or the glue is at fault, can it be replaced without sending the whole darn thing back only to get another one with potentially same problem?

Don't fret pardner! I spoke to Scott at Outlaw recently and he informed me that they switched to a completely different protective covering, with a kraft paper backing, that doesn't attack the plastic. So go ahead an pull that trigger! I'd hate to see you miss out on a great subwoofer because you're worrying about a problem that has already been solved.

Thanx tekgredger for putting my mind at ease about the asthetics concern. It would have been pretty disappointing to own a great sounding sub with a serious appearance problem. I'm already an Outlaw customer (a happy 950 owner) and figured these guys would be all over it. I'll get in line to give this box an audition.

My cat jumped on my sub and scratched the top of my LFM. I own an iBook and had some "Ice Cream" you can buy from www.radtech.us Worked great. Cleans scratches from a ton of precious toys.

Nice to know they changed...wish mine wasn't so scratched up but...I only see it when I adjust between movies and music...
Bill

Interesting. I've had two for about 9 months. The first I took the plastic off immediately. The second I took off just tonight due to reading this thread. Felt like Saran Wrap. A few "textured" spots but they rubbed off with a soft cloth. Seems fine now.

Mine and others who were complaining had a brown paper with an adhesive back...alien glue was used to keep it on...I imagine most of the scratches came from me using a fingernail (and I don't have much) to remove the glue backed paper...sounds like the cured the problem...still sounds great though.
Bill