My friend just picked up 2 Philips SACD 1000 players and hooked his up to an Outlaw 1050. He gets subwoofer output from DVD movies and cable TV sources but not in SACD mode.

I checked out the unit's specs and reviews and found the following in Stereophile - my question, what does this mean? Does it mean you cannot use the ICBM with the Philips 1000 in SACD mode? Does it mean the Outlaw 1050 will not output any discrete subwoofer signal if the Philips is in SACD mode?

Help!


"The SACD1000, unlike the Technics DVD-A10, will not output PCM of any bit-rate from its digital jacks—not even from standard CDs! The only signals at those jacks are for DTS or AC-3. Thus, no external high-quality DAC or digital processing device can perform any upsampling, control tone or balance, or—most important for multichannel use—manage the bass unless it redigitizes the analog signals."

"And how about the DTS and AC-3 signals? DTS is digital-out only since the SACD-1000 does not incorporate a DTS decoder."

"The SACD-1000 will decode AC-3 and output it as high quality analog. However, internal decoding means bypassing the speaker/bass management in the pre/pro, so I prefer using the digital output as the default for both DTS and AC-3. But, whatever your preference, for AC-3 you must connect both analog and digital links and switch between them in order to use all the capabilities of the SACD-1000."

"But that's not all! The SACD-1000 does have facilities for speaker setup and bass management but these are effective only for audio from DVD-Video (Dolby Digital, Digital Surround, Dolby ProLogic, and a 3D-Sound mode that simulates surround from two speakers). Because the SACD-1000's speaker and bass management is ineffective on the analog outputs from all SACDs, you must use full-range loudspeakers on all channels. There's no way to tell the SACD-1000 to re-route bass signals from a small loudspeaker into a subwoofer or to create a phantom center channel."

"Moreover, you'd better have a subwoofer for the LFE (low-frequency effects) channel no matter how big and extended your main speakers are—there's no way to reroute the LFE signals either! High-end speaker/bass management in the analog domain is rare (TMH is promising one derived from their professional models), so you're stuck between redigitizing or no bass management at all. Well, Sony said from the get-go that SACD was the new high-end medium; you'd better ante up with the rest of your system."

What do you all think?!?!?

First, is it a two-channel SACD or a multi-channel SACD? If it's two-channel, you won't get a sub signal from most anything (the 950 and Rotel 1066's 5.1 input's analog bass management could do it, as could an ICBM, but not much else could).

The review says that the 1000 will only output digital signals if the signal is Dolby Digital (referred to as AC-3 in the review) or DTS -- so you would need to play CD's through the analog output. That's a little unusual. The player's onboard bass management is similar to most (almost all) DVD-Audio and SACD players -- it works for Dolby Digital audio decoded by the player, but not for SACD playback. What that means is that when you play multichannel SACD's (which have an LFE channel) you will have to actually have a subwoofer -- you can't rely on redirecting the LFE channel to full-range main speakers because there is no way to do it in the player. The player takes the six channels, converts to analog, and sends them on their way without any changes.

This is exactly why Outlaw made the ICBM -- and why so many people have bought them. It's the only way to get bass management for SACD and DVD-Audio with most players currently on the market.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Thanks Gonk
Yes, the Philips SACD 1000 has separate outputs for Center, Front, Rear (side) and Subwoofer channels. He gets sub output when playing DVDs and CDs. He gets zero sub output in SACD mode.

The Outlaw 1050 has inputs for the center, front, rear and sub channels.

Any more thoughts?

Very curious, very troubling.

When he plays SACD's, he is using the analog output from the Philips and the 5.1 analog input on the 1050. All that the 1050 does is volume control. If he gets no subwoofer signal when playing an SACD, it is because there is no LFE track on the disc. Many SACD's are stereo -- left and right only -- so the subwoofer, center, and surrounds will do absolutely nothing.

It sounds like the Philips and the Outlaw are doing exactly what they are supposed to do (unless you contend -- as many have, including Outlaw -- that the Philips ought to try to implement some bass management).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I've had this problem for a year and have exchanged two SACD players, called the manufacturer (Sony - they blamed the receiver), and written to magazines (http://www.hometheatersound.com/letters.shtml)

Here's what I think.

The two standards (DVD/SACD and THX) are not compatible as there's a 10db boost with THX. You need two receivers with the speaker volume calibrated separately for both.

Alternately, you can have two subwoofers with the SACD/DVD sub output going directly to the subwoofer and bypassing the receiver.

I tried to boost my SACD bass by 10db but there's not enough "oomph" in my controls (receiver plus SACD player) to get that far. Besides, you'll pick up some distortion with a 10db boost. It's better to bring the fronts and sides down 10 db for THX.