Hi. New to this board but it looks like it is populated with helpful contributors. Am considering retiring my Denon 5800 receiver (7 channel rated at 170 wpc - lots of processing modes but no Dolby Prologic II). Has been a good performer for me (left separates a few years ago - wife likes the lack of clutter), but have read so many good things about the Outlaws (I own the ICBM unit and am very pleased with it). I am thinking about going with the 950/770 rig. First, I will not ask which is better. This is way to subjective a comparison for such a simple answer. However, any opinions on the sound of the Outlaw combo vis a vis Home Theater would be appreciated. I use my system primarily for movies, and seldom for "pure" audio. I need good clarity and definition in the center channel and I love tight bass with punch.

Current system is Denon 5800; Outlaw ICBM; Mirage OM-5s in front; Mirage HTS center channel; Mirage omnipolar surrounds with 2 rear channel (comparable to the Mirages) direct radiating speakers for effects channels; Mirage BPS 400 LF channel subwoofer, Velodyne powered sub (150 watts) which is wired to the center channel Mirage; Sony DVP ES 9000 for DVD; Pioneer DV45A for SACD and DVD-A; Bijou Home Theater 5.1 EQ; Mitsubishi 65611 65" WS Rear Projection TV.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Mike

I'm not familiar with the Denon flagship receivers like the 5800 so couldn't offer any sort of comparison between it and the Outlaw gear, but I will offer that I consider the 950 is an excellent pre/pro for home theater use. The 770 is likewise a great amp (I've been using it's predecessor, the 5x165W Model 750, for several years now and have been very pleased).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Thanks for the reply. The only hesitation I have about the Outlaw gear is a more than passing reference to a problem with "hiss" in some of the forums here as well as elsewhere on the net when reading reviews/comments about the amp (may have been the preamp - I can't remember). The Denon is a great performer, and I am really torn because of the satisfaction I have with it. Have you experienced any problems of this nature? Gald you are so pleased with the gear. Am also looking at the Sunfire Ultimate Receiver. Take care.

Mike

The hiss issue was heavily discussed, but all 950's produced since December 17, 2002 (or there abouts) -- the "blue dot" revision of the 950 -- include design changes that have eliminated the hiss. Don't let that worry you.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I wouldn't hesitate to try out this combo, I believe you will be pleasantly satisfied. The 770 is definately powerful, even with all channels driven!

I am sorely tempted at this point. A local dealer is recommending the Rotel pre-amp (1066) and the Rotel 5 channel 200W amp paired with a Rotel 2 channel 200 watt amp. This of course will cost me about $4500.00. The Outlaw rig is substantially less. I have read a number of newer posts on the net and the hiss and hum issues do seem to have generally resolved. Funny, although I intellectually realize that it should not be a factor, a voice in the back of myhead keeps whispering "this stull can't be "better" (I hate that term!) than the higher priced gear! That's not how the world works!" But everything I am reading seems ot suggest that the world is upside down at teh Outlaws!

Thanks for the input, guys. Much appreciated.

Mike

Remember, if your budget can stand the return shipping fees 'gamble,' you get a 30-day 'in-home, money back' audition.

I tried the 950/770 and still have them, still enjoy them very much.

I am just about sold on the 770. Everything I read seems to indicate that I can't do better even at a substantially higher price. I am still unsure about the 950. Again, the reviews I haveread are good, but they always include something like "remember, this is a $799.00 (can't recall the price right now) pre-pro." I will keep browsing (I am obcessive-compulsive about HT purchases) and looking for any downsides ot this apparently incredible amplifier. My guess is that one is on the horizon. Will probably test it out with my Denon 5800 as a pre-pro for now (I know I lose the 200 difference by buying the set) or maybe will just get both given the 30 day test period (I wonder if you can return one (losing the discount, of course). Thanks for the reply. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!

Mike

Yes, you can order the set and return only the 950, if you so choose. And, yes, you end up not receiving the set discount if you return one of the two items. But if you are reasonably sure you are going to like and keep the 770, the 950 is less shipping cost to return, lightweight compared to the 770, if you choose not to keep it.

With regard to your earlier question about the quality of the 950 or 950/770 for HT ... for a total HT audio budget remaining in or near the four digit realm, IMHO, there is no better heart to a system than Outlaw. If you have $50K to spend on audio, you might want something more 'esoteric.' But in my philosophy, as expressed in my user name, Outlaw is the best. And if your speakers are capable of the kind of timbre and punch you want, the 770 will definitely provide the the signal that can clearly put the 'speak' in loudspeaker.


[This message has been edited by bestbang4thebuck (edited November 27, 2003).]

Budget is such a relative thing! For example, I feel I can put an additional 50k into my ststem - my wife disagrees. Seriously, my speaker set up is Mirage - OM5s in the front, HTS center and HTS surrounds (I use rear and sides).

Acutally, she would be OK with anything I wante to do (a real gem!). I was planning on dropping about 5 grand on a pre/pro and 7 channel amp. But I have been looking for a while, and I so far have not found anyone to really say that I would be unhappy after going with the Outlaw 950/770 over, say, the Rotels or any of the new flagship receivers (Yamaha Rx-Z9, Deneo 5803, B&K 507). I guess when I finally take the plunge, I will find out for sure!

Mike

I had a $20,000 budget for my system. I listened to a couple "flagship" recievers one being the Denon, and couple of processors listing for $5000+. I kept thinking back to the reviews on the 950 and 770 and how you could send them back minus shipping if not satisfied. I ordered the 950 but I went with the 755 and have no regrets.

Like I have said previously, I could have spent x times more for my system but I would not have x times more satisfaction. Spending exponentially more funds for a proportional sense of gain in your sound seems rather pointless IMHO.

Whatever path you take good luck and enjoy.

Thanks to all of you guys for all the helpful comments. I have to go in ot the office today for a while, but when I return, I think I am going to order the 950/770. I am amazed at how products at this price point can get the reviews they are getting, but am really pleased ot see that real value is still alove in the home theater world. The Outlaws must be pretty confident to have a 30 day no questions asked return policy, and I will take advantage of it and give them a try. Will let you know how it turns out.

Thanks again!

Mike

Thanks to all of oyu for your recommendations and help. I have just taken the plunge, and ordered the 950/770 combo. The overnight shipping is a real beast! But, I figured that with a 3 day turnaround for putting the order together I will get it hopefully by next Thursday or Friday. That should give me enough time to get my wiring checked.

One drawback appears ot be the inclusion of only 1 set of analog 5.1 inputs (the Denon has 2), so I will either have to choose between my Sony DVP 9000-ES player or my multiplayer, a Pioneer DV47. I looked for a switch box, but the only one I ofund was over 400.00. For a few dollars more (how appropriate a phrase for this site), I can go buy a new multi-format player. Looks like I may be going ot the Ebay site soon with all this old gear to unload!

Thanks again for the friendly comments and advise.

Mike

Mike -- the Sony 9000ES is a stereo-only machine, right? So why not use stereo bypass on the CD input for it and put the Pioneer on the six channel analog input?

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Hi, Gonk! Every now and then, the realization that I am over 50 hits me like a meteor. As I was drooling over my new purchases, I had this vision in my mind of the Sony and the Pioneer each requiring a set of 5.1 inputs. Yes, you are right. I used to have both sets of 5.1 inputs taking space on the back of my Denon because I had separate multi-channel SACD and DVD-A players. That is one of the rpimary reasons I moved to the Pioneer DV-47a. It plays both.

Thanks!

Mike

- Always glad to help.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Mike, you sound just like me. I went back and forth also. For me the biggest draw back with the 950 was its inability to be user upgradable. Electronic items are quickly outdated and I liked Sunfire's upgradable feature of using a CD. That is my only regret with the 950, that in a few years I may have an $800 antique while my friend's Sunfire pre will still be current. In the meantime, I really love my 950/770 combo. Hope you enjoy it.

Thanks, Alejate. Upgradeability is a something I always ocnsider, but I only let it guide my decision once. That was with the Denon 5800 receiver. I canot say it was directly from Denon, but when reading about it the potential ability to upgrade was discussed vis a vis the RS-232 port. Well, the only upgrade from Denon was an 800 dollar job shipping the unit off if you were able to get on the list. Besides, I always get the envie for new gear about every three years. My brother, on the other hand, is still running his Haller preamp and amp we built together some 20 years ago. I, on the other hand, still drive a 1992 Mercury Grand Marquis while everyone at my office tools around in a Lexus, Mercedes, etc. Go figure!

I figure that by going into separates again I can always upgrade at a more palatable cost one piece at a time anyway if the urge strikes again.

But thanks for the endorsement of the 950/770. I am eagerly awaiting their arrival. I paid of overnight shipping, so I hope they will be here in tile to debut Pirates of the Carribean this weekend!

Take care.

Mike

Well, the 950 got here. The 770 is lost somewhere in the Twilight Zone. Overnight shipping, too! Have asked the Outlaws and DHL for help on this. Will advise when receive the amp. Thanks for all the help.

Mike

With the Outlaws help, tracked down the 770 and it is here. Switching out the connections from my Denon to the 950 is proving to be a chore! I had the pre-out on the Denon running my Audio Control Bijou 5.1 EQ as well as the ICBM. Not sure how to hook them up now - and too tired to figure it out tonight. God, the 770 is a beast!

Mike

We have the 950 and the 770 now set up and have listened to a few CDs as well as some movies. Remember that I am not an engineer or a physicist so this report will be about as subjective as you can get. I do recognize that I WANT to like the new gear, and tried to take that into account. I have not "A-B'd" the Denon 5800 and the Outlaw units. It is therefore at best past recollection remembered versus current impressions.

On movies, the Outlaw gear is simply first rate. The Denon 5800 did not sound as clear, distinct or "present" as the new gear. I use Mirage OM-5s for my fronts and Mirages for the surrounds as well. The Mirages have always seemed to me to produce a pleasing wide soundstage (we cook on the weekends and have company over for movies, so the Mirages made listening a pleasure for more than the "sweet seat"). I know this probably makes no sense, but the wide soundstage still seems present, but the sound is clear as a bell and distinct as hell. Previewed Pirates of the Caribbean, and my wife told me that she had never heard a swordfight through the system that sounded so breathtaking. My wife is NOT into audio in any significant way, and her testimonial was surprising to me.

On CDs, I noticed no harshness and again, crystal clarity. There is no fatigue factor yet, and my wife and daughter have been listening to music all day, and still are marvelling at the difference in sound.

The bass is deep and tight. It simply thunders at the appropriate times with no hint of muddiness to these 52 year old ears. (Mirage BPS-400 sub.)

The Denon 5800 was a flagship receiver two years ago, and is a very nice piece of equipment. I am frankly astounded at how much of a difference the Outlaw 950/770 makes in my setup. I wanted ot like them, but the idea of replacing my $4,000.00 receiver with $2500.00 worth of gear and being happier was going against my sense of audio snobbery. I had nothing to worry about. This stuff is simply unbelievable.

In short, it's a keeper.

Again, this is not a scientific or double-blind analysis - I don't have the time. Whether or not it is the triumph of my subjective subliminal hopes or a true improvement that could be verified if I had the time or the instruments, I am a - no, we are - happy campers.

Thanks to all for the information, encouragement and suggestions. This is a great place to be!

I do not have the ICBM in the loop yet, nor the Bijou 7 channel EQ. I am so enamored by the new sound that I ordered a Denon 5900 DVD player that should be here in a week or so. There goes the savings from buying the Outlaw rig!

Thanks again.

Mike

Congrats on enjoying your Outlaw gear. That is the end point isn't it, total home theater enjoyment!

I was just reading about you difficulties in placing your ICBM and/or your Bijou EQ in the system. I have some ideas...

1) Unless you have the proper meausrement tools or you have a friend with them, leave the EQ completely out of the system. The right tools to place the EQ into the system include a meaurement quality microphone, a laptop with a RTA program on it and/or a portable RTA unit. If you don't have this equipment available, putting the EQ into the system will probably cause more harm than good. In other words, don't move the sliders into a nice pattern just because it looks good!!

If you have these tools, you can use the EQ between the 950 and the 770 to cut any frequencies that stick out too much on the RTA. Do not try to use the EQ to overly boost any dips as this is the way you will just add more noise into the system. Also, make sure that any adjustments you do make are not too drastic. The EQ can certainly help with any peaks or dips you may have but it isn't going to fully rid the system of these anomalies without doing some harm to the musical content that is playing.

2) Unless you have stereo subwoofers, I really don't see a place for the ICBM in your set-up. If you are using stereo subs, I would put the ICBM in right after the EQ, just before the 770. This would allow for the subwoofer signal to EQ'd properly but also split into stereo.

The bass managment features of the 950 should be enough to get correct bass management for direct sources. For the final verdict on this, I would, however, post on the 950 forum about bass management with an ICBM and a Denon 5900. I don't personally own the 950 but I know there are some quirks with its bass management. A post on that forum may help solve that issue.

One more thing, before using EQ to solve room problems, you may want to look into acoustical solutions first. Not only will that solve most of the problems the EQ would be trying to fix but it would also give your home theater room a cool new look. There are some great new products out there specifically designed for this purpose. As most would say; your system is only as good as the room it's in.

New equipment gives one lots to think about, huh??

Thanks for the tips. I have my system set up now and have enjoyed a number of movies as well as music for a day or so now. I have removed the Bijou form the loop and do not notice a real difference. I want to keep it around as I may one day try to integreate it into the system, but for now it is fine. Will put the ICBM between my multi-format DVD when it arrives (having some trouble finding a Denon 5900 right now - they appear ot be in short supply). I have a Pioneer DV47 but its video is on the fritz (video drop-outs - only 2 years old, too!). Anyway, I am constantly amazed at the sound coming from my speakers with the 770 hooked up. Pirates of the Caribbean was really something! I read in the forum somewhere that one user's center channel really came to life. My wife has difficulty discerning dialogue form the center, and I use dot have to pump up the gain on the center 9db. With the 770, the center is just fine without adjustment (but she loved it with a 3db gain). I cannot tell you how pleased I am with this purchase. It is more than I expected for less than I expected.

Thanks again.

Mike