Hey guys, I've been reading the forum since before my 950/770 combo purchase in June 2003, relying on the many great reviews and discussions to guide my decision to purchase the outlaw combo. Basically I have three questions/concerns. 1. It is probably the wiring in the house, but when certain circuits, wall outlets, etc. are used, the system cuts out momentarily. Examples: Stove burner pilot light causes this everytime, even though I think it is on a separate circuit! One light switch to enter/exit basement does it occasionally, and when I used a floor scrubber plugged into an outlet that uses the same circuit as the room outlet that the outlaw is plugged into, the system cutout until I turned off the scrubber. Is this normal? Is it the amp or the preamp? I've thought about calling an electrician to ask about a dedicated circuit. How difficult is this, cost, and will it help. 2. This is related to 1. and constitutes noise entering the system. The main culprit I've found are the dimmer switches, that when put halfway, will cause a loud hum through all the speakers. Will a dedicated circuit solve this? 3. Do any of the 950's bass management features become active on zone 2 if they are currently active for the main zone? I'm using the 770, 5 channels for the main zone, a separate powered sub, and then the 2 remaining 770 channels for zone 2 into the basement rec-room. I'd swear I hear a lack of bass into the basement speakers which are Infinity SM 12 inchers, compared to when I was using an old HK AVR-20 to power them in my apartment. I know that possible explanations could be a change in room acoustics, or that I have just gotten use to the monstrous bass coming out upstairs with the sub. I tried switching speaker outputs (ie. using the main room fronts downstairs instead of upstairs and turning off all bass management. There was still no increase in bass downstairs). The only way I can objectively compare would be to set the HK up and run the same signal through the HK and then through the outlaw to see if there is a difference, like A/B testing. Anyone's thoughts/comments would be appreciated.

There are some better sources for electrical issues like this around here (hullguy posted recently, and he's an electrician), but I've got some thoughts that might help you out.

1. That definitely sounds like a problem with your electrical service, not the fault of either the 950 or the 770. The 770 is capable of pulling a lot of current, although at regular volume levels it shouldn't present much if any more load than any other amp would. It is probably most severely affected by the dips in power, and may be the reason the system is cutting out on you. With activity on other circuits causing these dips, I wonder what size your house electrical service is. When I bought my house in 1999, it still had the original (circa 1954) 60amp service. In a modern home, with central air, refrigerator, clothes dryer, and all of the assorted electronics (microwave, one or more TV's, computers, home theater equipment, hair dryers, etc...), you can overload a 60 amp service without even blinking. While having a new dryer outlet installed that summer, I also replaced the 60amp service with a 200amp service, leaving me some capacity for future power to the detached garage. In the spring of 2002, I added a dedicated computer circuit, two circuits for the home theater (one of which is not even being used right now), and a couple of exterior GFI outlets on a separate circuit, and I still have spaces in the panel. The new service cost me around $1000, I believe. The dedicated circuits (which can only be installed if there is space in your main panel for an additional breaker) cost me less than $250 each (I had all four circuits added along with a closet light for $750 total).

2. Dimmers are notoriously bad about pushing noise back onto the electrical service in a building. We run into it at work (commercial HVAC and electrical design) fairly often, thanks to dimmed fluorescent and incandescent lighting and variable speed controllers on my fan and pump motors -- which are just really high tech electronic dimmers to vary motor speed. A dedicated circuit will help, but you may also need some sort of power conditioning on your home theater gear since this particular sort of noise can affect circuits throughout the house (for example, your lights should already be on a separate circuit from your receptacles, and you are clearly getting noise onto the receptacle circuits). A power conditioner from Panamax or even Monster could help a lot with the dimmer hum. Other sources of noise (such as vacuum cleaners and refrigerator compressors) can be largely eliminated just by getting the stereo on a separate circuit -- getting my fridge off the same circuit as my stereo was a big help.

3. The zone 2 portion of the 950 is purely analog, which means it is separated from the 950's digital bass management, so there shouldn't be any bass management taking place. It's possible that the change in space acoustics (as you noted) is playing a role. It's also possible that the HK had some sort of bass boost or tone control active that you got used to hearing.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gonk, unbelievable, less than one day for that detailed reply!!! I would agree with number 1 except that I believe our house has a 200 amp circuit. It was only built about 5 years ago. So I don't know if it is pulling that much current. Basically the pre-amp, amp, CD, VCR, TV, DVD are all plugged into the same outlet. I still don't think this would overload the circuit though, especially since all would not be run simultaneously at full capacity. My sub is plugged into a separate outlet for the reason above; too many things on one outlet, so this may also be bringing noise into the system. The only other thing that may be odd in my system is a realatively crappy Radio Shack surge protector/ outlet expander. I don't know if this has protective circuitry in it or not. Its not for the computer either, supposed to be specifically made for HT with equipment guarantee, etc., but then again it is Radio Shack. I agree with number 2. Do you think a separate circuit would do it, or should I try the noise suppressor first. I'm thinking the first way, only because of the cutout problem. We have about 7 open slots in the circuit panel I think. I'm in KY doing an internship, so I don't have reference to my home in WI at this time. So around $250, huh? How does that work exactly, and how much drywall, etc., may need to be ripped up? I totally agree with number 3. The HK had its loudness setting "on" all the time, since I never cranked it (ie. neighbors in apartment), and the bass and treble were slightly elevated to around "+1" if say it had +/-5 each direction. I have the outlaw set flat since my sub puts out so much bass. Thanks for the quick and detailed info. so far!!!!

I'm guessing here, but if you're running the amp through a cheap surge protector, that may be limiting the current it can draw to the point where a dip elsewhere pushes it over the edge -- amps need an uncluttered path to power, and that little Radio Shack power strip may be getting in the way too much. Something like a Panamax MAX5100 or MAX5300 might be a worthwhile replacement for the RS strip.

The collection of devices on a single circuit doesn't seem too unreasonable as long as there's not a lot else in the house on that circuit -- I run my entire system off a single (albeit dedicated) 15A circuit.

Adding a circuit will depend on the specific conditions. In my case, I was working in exterior walls of a little bity house, so I surface mounted conduit outside for almost all of the wiring -- quick, easy, cheap, and aesthetically dubious. You'll need to identify the shortest and most painless route from your electrical panel to your equipment. An attic or crawlspace could help minimize drywall work and keep the installation cost down.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gonk, thanks for the time replying to my questions. I have a few more regarding the separate circuit. Would you or any other "Outlaws" advise just connnecting the amp, or all of my HT components to the dedicated circuit. I'm afraid noise will be introduced from RCA cables, sub cable, etc. if I only isolate the amp or only the amp and 950. Is there a possibility of overload if the 770 and sub are on the same circuit? The sub is a HSU VTF-2 (~150W RMS). I'll try your suggestions when I get home regarding the RS HT "protector". Also, can a separate circuit's conduit be run through the basement floor joists? Lastly, Is it possible to still get hum from the dimmers with the dedicated circuit if no conditioner is installed? What is the cost of the Panamax, etc? Thanks, Eric

With a 950, 770, sub, various source components, and a TV, you can probably put them on a single circuit, although you might consider two circuits -- one for the 770 and one for everything else. (Anybody else have a thought on that? I've got a second circuit and haven't seen a need to shift anything to it, but my degree's in mechanical engineering, not electrical...)

The sub and 770 should be able to share a circuit without any trouble at all.

As for conduit routing, a basement would be a very slick way to run new conduit -- everything exposed and easy to install, and you'd only need to mess with a little bit of sheetrock at the new receptacle. Feeding receptacles from the floor is always preferred over feeding from above, because it cuts down on the conduit and wire required.

I am not absolutely positive about it, but from what I understand about dimmers it is very possible that they can still put noise on a dedicated circuit if there is no conditioner or filter of some sort blocking their path.

The Panamax MAX5100 that I use retails for $350; it can be had for as little as $200 online, but you may not get the insurance included (non-licensed distributors). Here's Panamax's list of approved online distributors. Brickwall also makes some good surge protection / conditioning products , including an 8-outlet unit (8R15) that costs $200.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

So after I returned home around Thanksgiving, I immediately started playing around with my 950 to see if I could find the problem. I unplugged both the 950 and 770 and ran them directly from the wall outlet. Unit still cutout. Finally, a light bulb came over my head! I realized I did not ever remember the units cutting out when DVD's were on. So I proceeded to test this theory switching between the DVD and CD and then lighting the stove burner. The DVD never cut out, and get this, the CD player (which is an HK) only cut out when the digital output was used! I have both units hooked up to the 950 via both analog and digital cables. So, the problem is obviously either with the HK digital out, or the 950 digital in. Interestingly, the Toshiba DVD does not have these problems using digital hook-up, so the problem may be specifically with the one 950 input. Thoughts and comments would be appreciated. Since then, I have only been using CD with analog output without any cutouts. I cannot tell much of a difference in music quality. I'm assuming in digital, the 950 does all the decoding, but with analog the HK decodes and then the 950 also has to process the information? If I am wrong, please let me know the difference.

That sounds rather odd. One simple test is to swap the Toshiba and HK's digital inputs at the 950 (assuming both are coaxial, as that's the digital output I've had on my HK CD changer and Toshiba DVD player) and see if the problem still happens. If it still happens to the HK, then the problem is in either the interconnect (unlikely) or the CD player.

Digital vs analog inputs: when using a digital input to the 950, the source is passing the original audio signal (CD, DVD, satellite, digital cable, whatever) unaltered from source media to the 950. The 950 then does whatever is needed to the digital signal and converts it to analog before outputting it to the pre-amp outs. When using an analog input, the source is converting the audio from digital to analog (if applicable -- obviously not the case for a VCR, tape deck, turntable, ...) and the 950 receives that analog signal. That analog signal is converted back to digital for processing (bass management, surround modes such as Pro Logic II) before being converted back to analog and passed on to the 950's output. (On the way out, a few things happen in every case -- delays for the different channels, some tone control if you have adjusted treble and bass, and of course volume control.) If you are using an analog input and enable the "stereo bypass" mode, the 950 routes the signal past the analog-to-digital conversion and all of the digital processing.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Hey Gonk, sorry to leave you hanging. The problem is definately with the HK digital output. I should have known better to doubt the Outlaw. As a result I am only using analog out from the CD player. Any thoughts/reasons you can think of why this would happen? Any EE's out there? The question is why would a stove burner pilot light consistently cause the digital output signal to cut-out coming from my CD player. I'm stumped! Lets just blame it on HK's poor qc of their CD players!