I'm setting up my first HT and want to know how the Marantz sr4200 and 5200 compare against the 1050(presently own Marantz 4120, which I'm quite happy with for 2 channel.) Also, have questions as to if I go to 6.1 and presently don't have a center rear speaker is there a setting to play in 5.1 until I aquire a center rear and rewiring room? Spousal negoc. in progress!!!

What is the deal with dipole speakers, importance of, and the corrrect use of? Paradigm pimps them highly in their literature but neither of the Paradigm dealers here tried to sell them to me.

On another tangent my two year old has rendered my 3 year old DVD player inoperatable. The repair person said that the lasers(and lens?) have a limited life on DVD players and not to spend more than $150 on a new one. Is there any truth to this?? I asked this at the local Paradigm dealer and he looked like I'd shot his dog and took quite a time to formulate an answer. Which leaves me leaning towards that it is true.

Toshiba- Cinema series 36 in.--pre-Digital/HDTV ready :~(
Paradigm -Atoms, fronts
Paradigm- CC170(most likely)
Polk-PSW350
Paradigm- rears to be decided between Atoms(own already) and ADP170s

Thanks, from a HT newbie

[This message has been edited by Q-man (edited September 16, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Q-man (edited September 16, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Q-man (edited November 13, 2002).]

RE: Your tangent topic DVD player life span.

I can tell you that my experience is that what you were told might be true. My Sony DVP-S560D died after approx 14 months. I did some research on various news groups and found that many people are referring to this as the 560 syndrome. I then found that other Sony players have the same issue. I was told by a Sony repair tech that the lasers eventually have alignment problems and it would cost $150 to repair. Of course since many new players cost less than that I decided to just purchase a new one. I appears at least with Sony DVD players that this fact is true.

I would suspect that this does not have to be the case just that the manner in which many consumer electronics are made these days leads to a somewhat limited life span. One positive side effect of this limited life span however is that it "Spousal negoc" as you put it for a new DVD player with all the latest features becomes much easier when the existing player has died.

Thanks. That explains the circular non-answer I recieved on this question.

I going to hold on Spousal negoc. after HT for a year or so to get the HDTV. I don't think she'll believe that the two year old $1800 tv is obsolete already. Need more HD broadcasting before I start in on wearing her down.

[This message has been edited by Q-man (edited September 16, 2002).]

Some people here in the forum have found the Marantz receivers to be pretty good competition for the 1050, and there have been a number of posts on the subject - try this one first , then maybe this one , and this one (some stuff that may interest you starting a little way down the thread, looking specifically at Marantz).

The best bet for setting the 1050 up without a center rear speaker is to tell the 1050 that you have one but never enable the "Surround 6.1" mode so that it is never used (there are a few discs -- Pearl Harbor, Jurassic Park III, and Atlantis -- that have some bad flag coding that upsets many receivers, but the 1050 will work fine if it thinks it has a center rear speaker).

Dipole speakers are intended to simulate the multiple sidewall surround speakers in a movie theater. They aren't essential, and some people prefer regular speakers for surround duty. I have been very pleased with my Paradigm surrounds (Studio/ADP's). May want to try to do a little listening test -- your Paradigm dealer should be able to set something up, although it may take some coaxing depending on the dealer.

Like Desperado, I've heard a little about laser and lens problems with some players. There are not a lot of players that I would invest $150 of repairs in, since good new players have gotten so inexpensive -- especially if you are like me and have a standard-definition TV, making progressive scan pointless.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Thanks!!! gonk. Will you ever divulge how you keep up with, manage, and find so much info?

I'm moving into new construction that has the family room prewired. The surrounds are mounted on the back wall, not to the side of the "listening stage." Additionally, the prewires are about ten feet up. Any idea if the ADPs or Atoms would be better for this arrangement? I'm guessing the Atoms on a swivel bracket are going to function better in this set up.

Also, after reading all those links(thank you again, gonk) I've decided to give the 1050 a try. Easy of use(it would be great if my wife could use it) and bass mangement(watching movies after the kids go to bed) being a couple of the top reasons.

Hey Q-man: For DVD, the 1050 is excellent, especially in the price range, and also especially for 6.1. The Outlaws and the folks in this forum are top notch! In the end though, I ended up with a Marantz to get PLII for music, TV, and VHS. It was the right move for me. I gritted my teeth and jumped up to the SR7200 for additional features and power. More bucks, but right for me. I recommend 6.1 (you'll probably get a center rear speaker sometime). If you don't need PLII, the 1050 is tough to beat for $500+.

Q-man: A DVD note: I took the advice of some others in this forum to try a Panasonic DVD player. They suggested getting one with DVD Audio. I did and I'm very happy with it.

I've been thinking more about this laser life span issue while looking at my CD player. How different are DVD players lasers and lens from CD players? We(I) don't hear of limited life on CD player lasers. This thinking now makes lean toward urban legend status for limited life of DVD lasers.

Since, I don't need progessive scan there seems to be many choices of DVD players in the hundred dollar neighborhood. I been reading good things about Samsung in addition to the Panasonics. I never had problems with my Toshiba until it got toddlerized.

Mayor D, I'm too much of a newbie to know what PL II is as opposed Pro Logic and its use. It seems important for VHS but not DVD???? Not a VHS guy. I'm trying to build on budget to make wife happy.

This system will be 95% +++ for music. It is hard to watch anything over PG with a toddler in the house. I hadn't realized how graphic regular TV has gotten until looking at it from a stand point of do I want my two year old to see this. Even the "family" channels are full of gun play. The hardest part is commercials for mature themed TV shows. Those CSI promos come on all the time during all kinds of shows.

Q-man,
I've also heard about the DVD laser problem. I know for a fact that they go out of alignment. I don't know about a "limited lifespan" per se, but they do go out of whack. There are laser alignment tools on the market for the DIY'er to maintain his/her own equipment. I tend to agree with your repair guy who advised against spending more than $150 to fix 'em. They've become nearly disposable. Not the high end ones...the majority of the mass market ones.
It doesn't sound like dipole speakers would best suit your set up. They are designed to be on the side walls, and actually have 2 sets of drivers. One faces front, the other faces rear. There is a null at the listening position. The drivers produce sound which is then "bounced off" the front and rear walls to give a more diffused sound. Dipole vs. direct seems to be one of the "hotter" topics in home theater. Some people love 'em, others hate 'em.
I think the Atoms on swivel brackets on your rear wall is a great place to start !!

I am using Atom's on swivels mounted behind me and relativly high. I found when I switched to the 1050 that I wanted the placement to be more on the side but I am moving soon so I left the speaker in this position with no center rear so far and it still sounds great.

Q-man: For TV, dish (cable), and VHS - Prologic II is a nice improvement over Prologic. You get a much better surround/stereo effect with PLII (see www.dolby.com). The same holds true for music. While Prologic and a couple other modes (DSPs) are decent for music on the 1050, I think others in this forum have found the stereo mode the best (Outlaw comments?). Again, I think Prologic II is a great improvement over Prologic for music. When you play a DVD, Prologic and Prologic II are not needed. That's when the digital 5.1 and 6.1 modes come into play.

I agree that TV programs have gotten graphic - sex and violence sells. Even the prime time comedies are based on sexual inuendos. Life imitates art you know.

As far as DVD, my $179 got me a very nice player with DVD-Audio included (no progressive scan). For $100 to $150 you'll probably find a nice player for your immediate needs. I'm still mostly a TV/VHS guy. Toshiba, Panasonic, and others make good players.

I hope this helps. If you can pull it off, a side by side receiver comparison is the best.
MD

Pioneer released the Elite 45A "universal" DVD-A/SACD player which is a step down to the Elite 47A, I say go with this if you intend to buy a Dvd player with DVD-A. YOu might as well get one with SACD. It retails for $700 but you can get it online for $500 ...i saw even saw it online for 390 bucks, Yes people! $390 can beat that for the price. The truth is i'm planning to get one soon. Well, that all depends on your budget.

Hi gonk, could you clarify something, please? (Newbie, first post, will buy Outlaw 1050 and Boston Acoustics 9000 once construction on our addition finished in time for Xmas )

You said: "The best bet for setting the 1050 up without a center rear speaker is to tell the 1050 that you have one but never enable the "Surround 6.1" mode so that it is never used"

I read the 1050 manual off the Outlaw website, and I thought that for the 5.1 setup, I was supposed to tell the 1050 that the center surround wasn't there. I'm confused -- could you clarify?

Thanks, UW

Sure.

The manual says to disable the center surround if you don't have one. But a while after the manual was written, a series of DVD's were mastered in Dolby EX with a flag that ended up causing a slew of problems for receivers with proprietary 6.1 decoding formats (Onkyo had a bunch of receivers affected). Some 1050 users reported the problem (audio drop-outs every few seconds on Jurassic Park III, Pearl Harbor, and Atlantis), while others had no trouble. Outlaw figured out that the 1050 was not affected by the bad flag if the center surround speaker was enabled.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Thanks! UW

Okay I've got a speaker questions. I'm thinking of just buying another pair of Paradigm Atoms to use for front and rear centers instead of the CC170 for front and no rear center for a while. Is front center channel duty too much to ask of an Atom since it carries such a high percentage of sound? Will it disperse sound well enough, with just one midrange speaker? If I do use this I'm perfectly matched with Atoms all the way around and get a rear center too for the same price as the CC170. Would I be better off using Titans or even a Mini monitor for a front center? Putting a Mini Monitor as a rear center seems a bit much to me, with just Atoms elsewere. Any ideas how to find some one to split a pair of Mini Monitors(front Center) and Atoms(rear center) with? That leads to the question of if I get a Mini Monitor for a FC am I going to be unhappy until my left and right fronts are Mini Monitors too?

Q-man -- first, you need to make sure you can get shielded Atoms. The center channel will be sitting on (or very near to) your TV set, and you don't want an unshielded speaker that close to the tube (shielding here referring to shielding of the magnetic field from the speaker's magnet(s), which can screw with the display and even potentially damage the set).

For TV and movie watching, the center is pretty important. The CC-170 would probably be better at it and I would definitely recommend it if you can't get shielded Atoms, but if you can get shielded Atoms it might be worth a try. An idea -- borrow one of your surround Atoms (if you already have two sets of Atoms) and set it up as center with some demo material (I'd recommend Phantom Menace, as it proved to be a good test of front sound stage with my old speakers). You may want to turn your set off if you get any rainbows or distortion in the image and just listen. If it sounds good and you can get shielded Atoms, go with it.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gonk this reminds me are FL/FR unshielded ever a problem normaly with the display?

I'm pretty sure the new Beethovens ARE unsheilded (Haven't confirmed yet) The center they sell the Mastro is shielded.

I think???? this may not be a prob. with an LCD anyway, but could it...if I ever have a CRT around the fronts?
Whats the 'rule of thumb' on distance?

My mains aren't shielded. From my experience, unshielded mains are much more common than shielded. I've heard that you need as little as a foot or so to protect your set, but I don't know how much faith I put in that and prefer a little more separation -- my unshielded left channel is maybe two feet from my direct-view set. I don't know of how much (if any) difference shielding makes with DLP or LCD projectors -- I suspect that it shielding isn't necessary for them, but I haven't scoped them out well enough to know for certain.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gonk they do sell shielded Atoms. The ones I own are not shielded, but I think at couple feet away I can test for use as a cc.

Thank you Gonk!

Mayor D
My brother bought the Marantz 7200 and he has the full Paradigm speaker package with the Ref 80s. When I auditioned his system I was surprised at the weak sound. He said he noticed that too. His Paradigms in HT just didn't seem to be getting enough juice! After some research I came across this info:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm
I find that the real power of the Marantz into 6 channels is only 27 watts! The Outlaw 1050 according to them is 62 watts into 5 (which I believe is pretty close to the specs listed).
Anyways my brother visited, and when I fired up my system :Outlaw 1050, Ed Frias AR.com diys speakers (3 in the front), Polk surrounds (until I build another set of Ar.com diys), and my diy Tempest sub: he was blown away by the sound. He was so impressed he is getting me to build 6 of the AR.com speakers and a Tempest for him. He is hoping he can trade in his Marantz 7200 for something with more power. He is looking into the newer Marantz 7300, hopefully it doesn't have the same power issues.
Just a little input. Everyones mileage can vary.

MCH, that is really strange with your brother. I have the Marantz SR6200, it has the same amp as the 7200, but fewer features. I have not noticed a power deficiency. My speakers go pretty loud, I can still tolerate the level they go to, but it doesn't really hurt. The neighbors would notice some though. My speakers are Mirage OM-5 mains, OM-C2 center and Bose 301 surrounds. I used to have Bose 701 mains and those things just rocketed up with the volume. They were set 8-10 lower than anything else and still dominated. These did hurt at high volume.

MCH- has he tried different speakers or receiver to test where to problem might be? This doesn't seem right for a receiver with such good reviews. Is it still under warantee? Maybe take it to where he bought it and have them hook it up side-by-side with thier demo unit to see if something is wrong. I wouldn't give up on his speakers if he's been listening to a bad source. By the way R80's are rated 15-250 watt receiver compatible. 180 watt max input.

[This message has been edited by Q-man (edited November 15, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Q-man (edited November 15, 2002).]

MCH: Perhaps your brother has a defective unit. It's worth checking out. I saw the "geocities watts-report" as well, but my 7200 has plenty of volume with ample headroom to spare. There's no denying that the 1050 has plenty of power and "oomph". For sheer power, it probably outpowers anything in it's class, and no doubt a couple price levels higher. It's been said in this forum that the Marantz sound is clean but a bit more laid back, where the 1050 offers a bit more up front in-your-face punch, and I agree. It's a matter of preference though. There are so many variables. My living room is approx 20 x 30 with an 8 foot ceiling and quite a bit of wood. I have six AAD E-30 satellites and one AAD E-8 sub. A very compatible set-up. The 7200 learning remote is nice, and Prologic II works for my uses. If I did more DVD viewing (then PLII is irrelevant) the 1050 is great. Good power, good sound, good price, and easy to use. Enjoy!

[This message has been edited by Mayor D (edited November 15, 2002).]

Just another side note to this brother story. My brother is purely a classical listener. I venture he must have approx. 2000 classical CDs. Basically it's a classical library.
Anyways. He always felt that a sub wouldn't be of any benifit in his system. One day he started some serious listening, on my system, to some of his cherished classical CDs he brought; while I was out. When I got back he says "I think I DO need a sub in my system!" He felt he was missing a lot of presence in the low end. The music with the sub was much richer and fuller. Here is a classical (as in music) guy with Paradigm Ref 80s wanting a sub. Being the nice brother I am, I offered to build the same version of Tempest that I have (Octagon shape and sealed). He gladly accepted. I'm happy too, because I love woodworking.
Moral of the story is: I would venture a lot of systems would reap the benefits of a good subwoofer.
my 2 1/2cents

MCH: Ahh, 'tis true. Without the use of a sub-woofer, one's system coud be sub-standard.

Very true. I have 250 watt subs in each tower that go down to 22 hz and feel a separate sub could still help my system, especially in music. Strange, nearly all people who have commented onthe bass they use for movies and music say that they turn it up for movies and down for music. I have plenty for movies, but not enough for music.