In my 5.1 setup I have 4 full range speakers set to large and a small center channel being set to small. All speakers are set a 40Hz and the center is set to 80Hz in the 950 setup. Where is the bass going in this configuration? Does this mean that only information below 80Hz that is in the center channel will go to the sub and only information that is below 40Hz and any LFE will go to the sub? I think the best way to handle this is to just send all 250Hz and below to the sub. Double, triple bass is not an issue with me. What is the best way around this problem, I am thinking of going with the 990, will that help? If I tell the 950 that I have a 7.1 system and set the non-existent extra speakers to 150Hz will that give more bass?

With your mains and surrounds set to large, none of the information from those channels is being redirected anywhere. With the sub set to "on" all of the LFE remains there. With the center set to "small" and the crossover at 80Hz, anything below 80Hz is redirected to the sub, where it joins the LFE (if there is an LFE track). Is there a problem with this arrangement? I'm not sure I see a reason to redirect everything below 250Hz to the sub (or even a method for doing so, short of setting all channels to small and raising the crossover), and I can't imagine how activating nonexistent surround back speakers with a high crossover would help - it would deprive you of some of the surround information (since it would be removed from those channels to generate a signal for the surround back), and the amount of bass in the resulting surround back signal isn't likely to increase the overall sub signal appreciably. If you were trying to get more bass, it would be easier to adjust the trim on the subwoofer channel (or at the sub's amp) up a notch or two.

i could be wrong but i think somewhere around 100-120hz frequencies start to get directional you are also getting into the 'midbass' around there,so,you x-over at 250 hz,you start to lose SOME 'imaging', but the biggest thing i've found with many subs(home and car) is :

they don't like to reproduce midbass,the sound turns muddy,it gets really overbearing,and it robs the ever so important power to do what subs do:reproduce low frequencies.

i don't know what advice to give you other than i would never x-over a sub that high.

I guess what I don't understand in what input data type gets sent to which output?

For example: If you are playing a CD that is a stereo recording through a DVD palyer connected with both optical and analog connections, and there is a low frequency in the music, What signal will it get to the sub?

I seem to be pretty happy with watching a movie on DVD that has LFE. LOTR's is awesome, but when playing a stereo CD which does not have LFE encoded, it does not send anything to the sub even if the music has sub level data in it.

Maybe part of my problem is that I am using my DVD player for CD playing as well and they really need to be seperate? I think that everything I play in the DVD player is going through the optical cable causing the 950 to decode and redirect the data stream. Would I get better results if I were to configure the Outlaw to use the analog connection when playing a CD?

I don't think there is a simple answer here. Maybe someone has a spreadsheet that correlates Sub Output (Hz) with different audio formats (5 stereo, PLII, Dolby,..) and different system configurations (Main Large 40Hz, Sub on,...) that would give you an idea of what is happening.

It would be nice to know what's going where with any type setup.

There's no need to separate DVD and CD playback. You are getting no data to the sub when listening to CD's because your mains are set to large. We could make a chart such as you are describing, but I think it would overly complicate matters. I put this overview of bass management in my 950 review, which may help you. Here's the overview of bass management when using digital inputs or analog inputs that aren't in bypass mode (it treats the crossover points as absolute cutoffs, which is inaccurate since they are actually slopes, but it explains the signal path at least):

• lies to all digital inputs and all stereo analog signals that do not use the "stereo bypass" mode
• Any speakers set to large will receive full-range signal with no data sent to the subwoofer (crossover setting is ignored)
• Any speakers set to small will receive all information above the specified crossover and nothing below the crossover; data below the crossover is sent to the subwoofer
• subwoofer will receive the LFE channel of multi-channel soundtracks as well as any re-directed bass from small speakers
• If there is not a subwoofer (sub turned off in the menu) and the mains are set to "LARGE," then information redirected from small speakers will be sent to the mains and the LFE channel of 5.1 soundtracks will also be sent to the mains

If you are looking to get the subwoofer involved when listening to CD's, you will need to set your main speakers to "small".

In a Dolby 5.1 mix, the .1 is a standalone track that includes its own content-- the LFE content. If you're using bass management, whatever content you're crossing over from the main speakers is mixed WITH that .1 content and sent to the subwoofer.

When you're listening to a stereo CD, if you have all your speakers set to Large, there will be no content going to the subwoofer because, as Gonk said above, when all the speakers are set to Large, bass management is not functioning. (The center speaker doesn't count on a stereo CD because there is NO CENTER CONTENT in a two-channel CD.)

No matter what you have set in the crossover frequencies -- if you have speakers set to Large -- NOTHING is being crossed over from those channels to the subwoofer. You HAVE to set speakers to Small to engage bass management for those channels. This is the same for ALL pre/pros that I'm aware of, not just the 950.

Even if you have your DVD connected with both digital and analog cables, the 950 is reading content from the DVD player using ONLY ONE of those cables. If you're getting a 950 front panel reading that you're receiving Dolby Digital when you play a DVD with a DD5.1 soundtrack, you're using the digital cable. The analog cable would not transmit that.

Chances are that when listening to a CD you'll seldom hear content as low as in the LFE track of a film. Most LFE content is "faked," that is, it is synthesized to enhance the sonic impact of the film. Unless you're listening to a pipe organ, most real world musical sources don't have sounds going that low.

Even though your ESS speakers are full-range, I would suggest to set them ALL to Small. Then, set the two front channel crossovers to 60Hz, the center to 80Hz (or 100Hz), and the surrounds to 80Hz. (It's my experience that you get a little more sense of space when the surround crossover is a bit higher than the fronts, even if the speakers can handle a wider-range load.) You should start hearing content redirected to the subwoofer now when listening to CD's.

Then just play around with the settings until you get a sound you like. The first thing I would do is play with the surround channel crossover. Put on a movie with a DD5.1 track as well as a CD in DPL2 Music mode. Try the surround crossover at 60Hz and see if you prefer the somewhat fuller bodied overall soundfield you'll get. Try it at 100Hz and see if you prefer the airier sound. (Experimenting with the amount of rear channel delay will also impact this. IMO most people use TOO MUCH delay in their surrounds.)

The potential problem with a lower surround crossover is that you may get the soundwaves cancelling each other. Your ears will tell you what to do.

Then try the front L/R channels at 40Hz and 80Hz and determine which of the three crossover frequencies you prefer. In my system with full range front speakers, I get the most musical results at 60Hz. Even with the dual woofers in the ESS speakers, I think you'll always want to crossover the lowest frequencies to your sub for the best performance.

In any case, I'd be disinclined to use the analog input from the DVD player for CD's. I would suspect that the 950's D/A conversion circuitry would be better than the Sony changer's circuitry. Of course, like everything else, you can hit the Bypass button and see which you prefer.

There IS a simple answer here. It should be possible to set bass management for one setting that generally pleases you for both movies and CD's, for two-channel and surround. While some recordings inevitably will sound better than others, that is a factor of the recording, NOT the bass management setup.

Have fun!!

Did a little test, here is the setup.

I used a Dolby Stereo DVD, Andrea Bocelli "A Night in Tuscany." There is a part near the end of "Nassum Dorma" that uses kettle drums. Now, the speaker system does reproduce the kettle drums without a need for subs, but every little bit helps. I had to look at the LED's of the sub amp to detect if they were getting a signal.

And the results were...

The only configuration that produced a signal at the sub was 5 channel stereo through the analog connection. Any other configuration through optical or analog with Stereo, Dolby, PLII-C, NEO:6, Dolby PL did not produce a signal at the sub.

So with the speakers set to large you can get output to the subs if you use an anlog connection in 5 channel stereo. I posted this before I read the previous two responces.

I am going to try and set the main and rears to small and see how that goes.

Your results match what I would expect perfectly when using any stereo source (Dolby 2.0, PCM, or an analog stereo source like a VCR). You only have your center channel set to "small" so the only way to get anything from a stereo source to the sub is to use Stereo 5, which duplicates the (full range) signals from the mains to each speaker. Stereo and Dolby Digital both send information to the mains only - and the mains are set to large, so no data will go to the sub. Pro Logic, Pro Logic II, and DTS NEO:6 will generate signals for the center and surrounds, and those generated signals may not carry any of the sub-80Hz data from the mains.

Boblinds made some excellent suggestions in his post. His experience also matches mine closely. My floorstanding speakers (which are rated to ~30Hz) have worked best for me when paired with my LFM-1 by setting them to small and setting the crossover for them to 60Hz.

I just tried out the mains set to small and it is different, I will have to get used to it.

Here is another little mod I made that is helping the subs out.

Sub Spike with pad

set ALL your speakers to "small" and you will get the sub response you are looking for, I bet! gognk no whereof he speak, methinks.

Bill

meangene,

i was looking at your pics and see why you are not liking what you are hearing.

seems to me maybe you want your full range romping while your subs are thumping?

and the bass management won't give you what you want,correct?

The bass management should be able to give him what he wants by setting speakers to small and tweaking crossover points. As MeanGene observed in his last post, it will take some getting used to.

i understand that gonk,but, how would you feel lookin' at 8-10's and what are those ,12's or 15's?

i would want them all to pound as far as their capabilities would allow!

extreme bass!!

Yes, I would like them all to work under certain circumstances, Like when I play the Blue Man Group DVD video. Believe me having the twin 15" subs and the 4 ESS "Rock Monitors" cranking is something to hear. These speakers are about as old as most people on this forum, but I have updated all drivers and membranes in the last couple of years so they don't sound too bad. The subs need some help as I bought the wrong drivers (Volfenghag) which have to high a Q for the box that they are in. In the near future they will be replaced by Ascendant Audio Avalanche drivers. You can see a demo of them here

Take a look at the Hair Trick videos. (I don't condone hearing loss via DB)

So far I like the changes that I have made; there is more LFE when watching cable and the like. Still, time will tell.

Edited for spelling -

It boils down to finding the best way to apply traditional bass management (which exists to maintain a balanced reproduction of input signal's full frequency range - from below 20Hz all the way to and even beyond 20,000Hz) to a system with pairs of 10" drivers in the mains and surrounds along with a pair of 15" subwoofer drivers. A 40Hz crossover point (or even a 60Hz crossover, potentially) and "small" speakers may allow the 10" drivers to still shake well while bringing the 15" drivers in. For that matter, it may yield more accurate results. The ESS AMT Monitor uses a similar Heil Air Motion mid/tweeter to MeanGene's AMT 3's (which I couldn't find specs on) and two 12" drivers instead of the 6.5" and two 10" drivers in MeanGene's speakers. The -3dB point for the AMT Monitors is listed at 30Hz, which is 10Hz shy of "true" full range. For comparison, that's the same -3dB point listed for my Paradigm's (which I have crossed over at 60Hz). MeanGene's speakers may have different specs, of course, but the info on ESS's site suggests to me that running the AMT3's as small with a low crossover point (40Hz or 60Hz) could yield a very satisfactory result when paired up with those 15" subs.

For what it's worth, the two Blue Man Group discs I have (Audio and The Complex) include DVD-Audio tracks and DTS tracks, both of which contain a discrete .1 LFE track that is fed only to the sub.

Yeah, I was talking about the DVD Audio disk played in DTS. Don't know about you, but I get a lot of bass (maybe mid-bass) out of every speaker while it whirlls around the room, makes me a little dizzy.

dizzy CAN be good


it's hard to find the proper midbass,it can easily be too much or not enough.the x-over can make or break you.i,myself would choose not to have that many "woofers" in a .1 setting,but lot's of luck.

The people over at ESS were kind enough to mail me the specs for the ESS AMT3's which I have added to my web site . The quality isn't very good, but you can make out most of the info.

I have been using the speakers set to small, grudgingly, hey I'm a guy we don't do small well. Anyway, it seems to sound better than before, and the Blue Men didn't seem to have any negitive feedback on the change. Movies that had the LFE didn't change much that I can tell, but the HDTV stuff and CD's did benefit from the change.

Sounds like a good choice, MeanGene - 40Hz at -2dB would probably benefit from small with a crossover around 40Hz to 60Hz, especially when the subs at the lower end of that crossover are as substantial as yours.

I think my subs are the weakest part of my system. The Volfenhag drivers are not good for a Home system, maybe in a car. They just don't have what it takes. When driven hard you can smell the pretty paint burning. I am planning on updating them soon, but after the 990. I have selected the Ascendant Audio Avalanche Drivers as a replacement.

In addition, I plan on upgrading the sub woofer amp to the Samson S2000 along with a dedicated 20A circuit to feed it.