One one the main reason for I chose the 950 is that I thought it can have seperate crossover frequencys for the different speakers groups. That allows me to use take advantage of the subwoofer for my front speakers that only need sub enanhancemnet at the very bottom end. Now that I tried to set it up, I come to find that this is a lot on nonsence. The xover will change the high pass filter to the speaker alright but the low pass frequency to the sub stays fixed the whatever the setting for the front speakers are. So, for example, if I have the fronts set at 40Hz and the surrounds set at 80Hz, I have a giant hole from the subwoofer the the surrounds between 40 and 80! This really sucks. Whats annoys me more is that Outlaw does not mention this anywhere in thier docs allowing folks to believe that you can really use multiple crossover points!!

Joel, i think you don't understand how the 950 handle the subwoofer signal, when you set the low cut frecuency for a speaker group all the frecuencies from that point are routed to the subwoofer, so threre's no giant hole in the low frecuencies if you have different low pass settings for each speaker group.

In every case the subwoofer handles the .1 signal if present in the source, tha signal it's routed to the subwoofer no matter what setting you have for the crossovers, except if you don't have a subwoofer at all, in that case the .1 signal is routed to the main speakers.

Dear Mr. Joel

Just use large. That's big boys style.

I think many would like to know how you came to this conclusion.

JulioCat,

First let me say that I'm know that the entire ".1" channel (LFE) is routed to the sub and that's not what I was talking about.

Most importantly, I also know that frequencys below the xover point of each group SHOULD be routed to the subwoofer. What I am saying is that it really is NOT. While there may be multile crossover frequencys set, and every speaker DOES get the correct low cutoff point, the high cutoff for the SUB is at only ONE frequency (which happens to be the freq you set for the front channels).

Mr. Sound Killer,
Not all of us have main speakers that are flat to 20Hz - do you "Big Boys"?

Yes, indeed. Bigger than you thought.

Also, please read the included manual carefully and precisely before you whining about people’s product is a scam.

First, it's in this forum somewhere that the LFE signal is low passed at 120 Hz to the sub.

Second, Joel- How did you test to come to the conclusion that you did? Not too long after the 950 came out, Outlaw indeed stated that the crossover worked as it's supposed to: for each speaker (group), the info above the crossover setting for that group is sent to the speaker itself, and below, to the sub. Not a global low pass.

Suggestion for Mr. Joel- Spend a day or two learning how crossover works would be very helpful.

Mr. Sound killer,
I did read the manual.
What page/paragraph in the manual proves me wrong? Also, please tell what part of what I said is technically incorrect to make you conclude there is a void in my knowledge on crossovers?

Kevin C. Brown,
I tested it using pink noise form the Avia HT test disk, the TrueRTA (spectrum analyzer) application on an IBM P3 laptop and a calabration microphone (can't recall brand).

Everything you said in your first, and second post. I even have a hard time understanding your descriptions, MAN!!

Practice, Practice, Practice...

How about you point out where the scam is? What page of the manual is inconsistent with what you found? Page 26 is where the bulk of the crossover info is. I didn't see if there's more elswhere. And even more important, why did you come onto the board to throw a hissyfit instead of talking right with Outlaw about it? If you bought something from a store, why would you go screaming through the parking lot instead of going inside to customer service? Did any Outlaw personell mislead you in the unit's capabilities?

By the way, I got to run, Mr. Joel. I need to get some sleep. Additional bass management professionals will be with you very shortly. (Hopefully)

Joel - I think it may be time for you to take advantage of the 30 day satisfaction guarantee. You tried it, you don't like it and now you can get your money back with no hassle. This is way they offer the satisfaction guarantee.

I've never had any issues with the 950's bass management, and I've tested the crap out of it in my lab since it was first released.

-- I'm not having a "hissy fit", just pointing out a very annoying design flaw. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought that, unlike a "parking lot", that's what this forum is for.

--Talking to Outlaw won't help - it's designed how it's designed.

-- I had it much longer than 30 days so I can't return it.

-- I wouldn't return it even if I could. There is no other product that CAN do this (that I'm aware of). Plus, this is the best processor anywhere near this price point.

---- Mr.Soundhound - Please - In your lab - play pink noise through the center channel. Set the center on "small". Remove the RCA cable to the center's power amp input so that you can use an RTA to look at just the bass from the sub. Change crossover freqs for the center and let us know graph changes. I'll bet not!

--- Mr. Sound Killer - the fact that you did not understand my simple explaination proves to me that perhaps YOU are the one that needs to read up a bit.

The forum is for discussion. What do you want to discuss? You seem interested only in telling us flat out how bad Outlaw is. Everything said is accusational and seems kind of short tempered. If you were interested in discussing this you could have asked what you possibly overlooked instead of proclaiming Outlaw to be the scum of the earth. Calling someone a scammer tends to mean something along those lines.

Why won't you talk to Outlaw? You're awfully sure of yourself. Everyone misses things. Maybe there was a setting you misunderstood. As for not returning it because of the 30 days, again, you won't contact them. How do you know they won't work something out? There is no way you can answer that unless you contact them.

Also, all 4 of your posts are in this thread. You only signed up yesterday. You come on here acting very angry and accusational, badmouthing something we all like. You won't really listen to anything and just dare us to show you're wrong. How are we not supposed to see this as a childish fit?

When I re-read the manual earlier, I found that what Joel is saying could happen, but I'd want to hear from Outlaw as to what the design is supposed to do. From what I read on pg 26, there are 3 separate high-pass filters. One for the mains, one for the center, and one for the surrounds. Right in that area, I didn't see what happened to the info below the crossover settings, the low pass info. We tend to assume it goes to the sub, but I didn't see it explicitly state that, so what Joel said could technically happen. I'd rather hear what some others have to say from their experience. Outlaw in particular. It's very easy to miss one setting, button, switch or whatever. No one can think of everything (even soundhound ).

Did you check to see if that "missing" info was routed elsewhere? Such as the mains? We don't know Outlaw's logic setup right off the bat. They could have set it up so that all the LP info from the other speakers went to the mains first. Then from there, anything lower than the main's crossover freq could be routed to the sub.

JT Clark - You are 100% correct about the accusatory tone and I do apologize to all readers. I only joined the forum for that one issue - to see if others know about it and what they feel about it. I now realize my wording was lousy and very attention seeking. I guess I was just anxious for responses on top of being perturbed about this issue.

I DISaggee about not listening to anybody and daring to be proved wrong. I've read, and considered, all the responses and nobody had a valid rebuttal. I would LOVE to be provin wrong in this case because I want this feature!

I do think Outlaw has excellent products at great prices and I love everything else about the 950.
Regards..

Some of us do understand your explanations, and most of us also find ourselves relying on speakers that are not truly full range...

There has been a great deal of discussion and scrutiny focused on the 950's assorted bass management features, and this issue is not one that I recall coming up. Obviously, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, but it does seem surprising that something like this would have slipped through. Perhaps soundhound can help shed some light on the situation; he's spent a good bit of time under the 950's hood.

Also, I would not discount Outlaw's support -- they have consistently been very responsive to customerconcerns about the design of their products. If the 950 really does behave as you describe, I'm sure they would be interested in reviewing it with you; your comments might even affect future products. If the 950 is in fact not behaving as your findings suggest, they may be able to help clarify the matter for you.

I'll bet not too. The centre channel info below its crossover point is re-directed to the front Left & Right channels to keep the critical front soundstage coherent. This way, if you have a very small centre speaker and are forced to use a relatively high crossover point, the filtered information will phantom image in the centre. I've never seen a bass management scheme that sends centre content directly to the sub.

Best,
Sanjay

Please clarify just exactly what you are talking about. The test you are talking about does not make any sense.

Thanks for spotting that, Sanjay. I hadn't ever thought about it that way, but that makes very good sense. From where I'm sitting, it appears that you have identified the reason for Joel's findings.

Apologizes accepted, but wouldn't be better if you first explain us what you did to came to that conclusion, because from reading your first post you looks like a rocky guy in home theater who don't read the manual and doesn't know anithing about how lowpass signlas are handle.

Latter we know about your RTA and the test you run, the fighting and everything else.

That's one thing that hit me for my post last night. Also, if there was no sub the LB signal from the center would be routed to the mains. Why not always just send it to the mains first and then have the sub play what the mains can't?

I believe that's how the centre channel is always handled. What the centre speaker can't reproduce, goes to the mains. What the mains can't reproduce, goes to the sub. The idea is to keep as much of the centre channel info in the front soundstage as possible before routing anything to the subwoofer.

Best,
Sanjay

That make perfect sence - except for one thing...
The 950 doesn't behave that way!

I set my center to "small" and my mains to "large".

I used the Avia disk to play W/B pink noise in the center channel.

I disconnected the RCA plug going to the amp for the center channel so that all I heard was bass.
I then powerd off my sub and heard nothing. No bass from the mains at all!

Perhaps some processors do this, but not this one!

----

If the overall sound level is lower than you prefer, set all speakers to "LARGE". If there is not enough bass, you should be able to use the internal setup to boost the bass levels??

Actually, I have my mains & CC set to "LARGE", this disables me from even setting a crossover level. My surrounds are set to small and Xover set to 80 Hz, and my LFE HIGH CUT>STD(120 Hz). I guess preamps are different than receivers because you can still set the crossover even when set to large as you have stated.

Joel, since bass sounds have a certain amount of directionality, it is best not to cut them, if possible. See if you can disable the Xover to your mains? Let them babies RIP!!! That's not "rest in peace", that's rock and roll.

One more test, instead of disconnecting the center, set it to "NO". The sound of the center channel should be output from the front speakers.

Oh, according my Sony manual, when you set your CC to "SMALL" to activate the bass redirection circutry, those bass frequencies are going to the subwoofer if you are using Dolby Pro Logic set at Normal. Still doesn't explain why the fronts are not getting bass.

Stay at it...We're all in this together>>>

>> The centre channel info below its crossover point is re-directed to the front Left & Right channels to keep the critical front soundstage coherent.

This is not how Scott explained it a long time ago. He said that the crossovers were crossovers: to the sub for each speaker (set). No redirection to the mains or anywhere else.

Joel may have found something, although I'm hoping it's how he tested.

Bandit - The fact that you can still adjust the xover freqs for the cc and surrouds when they are set to "large" is just a design quirk - the value set just does nothing. (It's not a reciever/processer difference).

On the 950, setting to large will take the sub out of the picture completely for that channel so this may not be a good plan if want that lower bass extention.

I know that disabling the cc will cause redirection the the mains. However, there are reasons not to do this (not the least of which is that I paid a lot of money for my center speaker).

Keven C Brown -- Thanks.
And I hope so too - (but I don't think so!)

I’ve tested my center channel response with all other channels muted (I have a device to do this) except for subwoofer and the signal below crossover point (60 Hz in my case) is redirected to subwoofer. The transition was smooth. At least that’s what I’ve noticed from my 950 and CC speaker.

With all this confusion, my Sony is starting to look a lot better as a pre. Sounds like Outlaw is giving you a lot more flexability as you CAN set a crossover when set to large or small, I can't, I can only Xover on small!

Here's an idea, send it back for repair?? They can't deny you that, it could be a relay or something not working, everybody else's seem to working fine.

I think you have misunderstood the way that bass management works. Any time you set a speaker to "large" (no matter whether it's an Outlaw, a Sony, or anybody else), you are no longer using a crossover with that speaker. If the receiver or pre/pro allows the user to control the crossover point, that crossover control may still be listed in the menu (as is the case with the 950), but by definition a "large" speaker doesn't use that crossover.

I hope that Joel has already contacted Outlaw directly , and if he hasn't I would strongly suggest doing so. Their customer service will help evaluate the behavior he is seeing - if appropriate, they will repair or replace his unit.

I really don't think there's anything to repair/replace. I don't believe my unit doing anything different than anyone else's. I don't understand the "everyone else's is working fine" statement. Has everyone use did the same kind of test I did? (It's not something you can just hear very easily).

I just think it's too costly to produce a chip with filters that sophisticated.

You still refuse to contact them? Why? Is there a real answer? I'm sorry, but everything you've said about why you won't is a very lame excuse. Talk to them. They would know better than any of us.

btw, we can't say that the crossovers don't work because the HP filters seem to work fine. They work as we expect and as the manual says. It's the LP redirection we don't understand, but we don't know for sure how Outlaw programed them. Everyone is making a guess. Some more educated than others.

I see you still haven't edited the title at all. Couldn't it be "Crossover Issue"? "Scam" is a rather strong and dangerous word to use against any company, especially so for an internet only one. It's also hard to justify when you refuse to talk to them.

Bandit, the crossovers are turned off for any speaker set to large. You can still see it and change the number, but it doesn't do anything. The speaker(s) set to large will play the full signal from that channel. The sub won't see any of that. The crossover only becomes active when the setting is switched to small. You can flip a gear selector on a car to anything you want, but it won't engage unless you let the clutch out.

I understand crossovers are turned off any speaker when set to large, what makes no sense is you can change it, but it doesn't do anything? Not arguing with you JT, but think about it... I just don't see why you build a sophisticated peice of equipment that has a setting you adjust, but no consequence or effect??

Besides, Joel's firt statement he emphasized the Xover settings, so I'm thinking how that plays into his situation, thanks for the clarification.

Them Outlaws must have been up late that night...LOL, no biggie.

I guess every designer has their preference.

Because it cost more money to write the coding so that portion goes away. Outlaw's products are all about performance/dollar. There are a lot of little things that maybe they could have done, but chose not to because they went with the package they felt offered the best ratio. You're thinking too much. That's the problem.

It's no problem.

JT- It's not a guess. I asked specifically after this review came out:

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/SherbournPT-700072100p2.html

The way that the review describes the Sherbourn operation seems to be what Joel found. (For those that don't know, the Sherbourn is almost identical to the Outlaw.)

But Scott posted that all bass for that speaker (set) below the crossover is redirected to the sub. That however does not seem to be what is happening.

So at least at that time, I chose to believe Scott. (Assuming that the reviewer tested wrong.) I also know that Scott monitors these threads, so it would be interesting to hear him weigh in.

OK, I tried. Using the search function with "crossover bass management", I found this thread:

>> Cirrus Triple Crossover Issue? July 31, 2003 950 Feedback

Which most likely has the info I referenced above, but it's a dead link.

Kevin - I found that thread in the archives, but it just referred to a different thread (with a dead link). I also found this thread from June 2003 about the Sherbourn review at Audioholics. Check Scott's post at the end of the thread. From soundhound's comments, there is yet another thread somewhere else in the archives that also addresses this, most likely this one from February 2003.

In both, Scott says this:

There is a very simple way to find out if it works on your system or not if you have a subwoofer with auto on and off sensor (I believe every sub does). If sub doesn’t get a signal for a few minutes, it goes into “off” mode with indicator light turning red (at least mine does). Once it senses an incoming signal, it automatically turns itself on with that indicator light turning green. Try this: mute or disconnect all channels except for center and LFE (subwoofer) channel. Make sure the subwoofer’s auto on and off indicator light is visible to you then run the test. Play music, DVD, frequency sweep or whatever that has some mid range and bass in it. Let me know how it turns out.

Kevin C Brown,

Yeap, the article does talk about the exact same problem...

Since these products are basically the same except for cosmetics, it appears this looking like is a real problem if the 950 is used the way Joel is describing.

Hopefully Scott can give some insight as to the test results...

Check out Scott's posts in both threads that I linked to. In at least one, he mentions double-checking with the engineering team to verify that the behavior quoted by JT Clark above does apply to the 950.

From what scott says about these "problem" in June 2003

"First, while we have the highest respect for reviewers, there are times where the methodology they employ in testing produces results that do not provide a full picture of how a product operates. Secondly, just to maintain our own sanity, we asked our engineering team to validate the operation of the crossovers, and they reported that everything does work as it is supposed to."

I only guess what methodoly applied outlaw in these case.

Hello Everyone,

I leave for Taiwan for a few days and look what happens! Sorry it took so long to respond. The Model 950's bass management does not create gaps in the frequency response.

In the following graph , you will see that there are no holes. In this test, the Model 950 settings were

Front: small, 40 Hz.
Center: small, 100 Hz

As you will see, all of the center channel bass from below 100 Hz was reproduced by the subwoofer.

Joel: I am confident that your unit also behaves this way. However, if you would like to send the unit in for confirmation, please contact the office.

Best,

Scott

Scott,

Thanks for the information...

What a trip... Is that allowed...

:-)

Neat. Would have been nice to see the surrounds too, but ...

So somehow must be a test issue.

Sorry Kevin,

Busy trip...didn't want to take too much time out of the schedule. I'm glad this helped.

Best,

Scott

I think it's interesting that both cases were with Avia.

In the sub test section of Avia, there are sub level tests that toggle the signal between the left speaker and sub, center and sub, etc. With 3 different pre/pros and 3 different DVD players, I never had the center to sub test work right (the sub level from the DVD is too low). I wonder if there's other tests in there that might not work 100% correctly...