I'm curious if the 950 is getting a little long in the tooth at this point in time or is it still a good unit? I am only interested in a 5.1 set up at this point. I know some of the responses will be biased but I'd like some honest opinions. I don't expect it to be perfect for $800 but what are some of the downsides of the unit compared with a unit that was realesed this year.

Thanks,
Joe

Good sound quality is good sound quality no matter how old or new a piece of gear is.

If you're OK with 5.1, then the Outlaw is still current. And the 950 *still* has the quite good CES modes for 6.1 and 7.1.

There are no downsides to the 950 unless you need/want digital video switching.

The 950 offers good sound quality, a good number of inputs and outputs, a healthy array of processing modes (perhaps only lacking Pro Logic IIx, which is useless anyway for anyone planning on using a 5.1 system, but as Kevin points out it also offers CES as well as Dolby EX and DTS ES for folks interested in 6.1), and a very good price. I think it's still a good unit, and still well worth considering if you are in the market for a surround sound processor.

I have owned the 950 for two years now and using that experience as a guide I would purchase again today with no hesitation.

Just noticed the new price of a 950 is $699.00. At that price it's a steal.

Woah.. . Good point, Paratrooper. That's an impressive drop.

And the B Stock is $50 cheaper at $649.00.

I've had my 950 since January '03, along with the 770. If I were in the market for another prepro now, I would buy it again in a heartbeat. From a sound standpoint, it will do virtually anything you would want for the 5.1 set-up you discribe.

$700 bones is a tough deal to beat. I'd just like to get a few years out of it. 7.1, given my room constraints, will probably never happen. I was considering something used at the $1000 price point but then you get a piece of equipment that's 4 years old BUT retailed for three to four times the cost.
One thing I do like about the higher end used processors is some of them have a mic to set up the speakers automatically. Is this something that can be done with the Outlaw? If not, how important is it anyway?

The 950 doesn't support using a microphone to do calibration. A $30 SPL meter from Radio Shack will let you do a very good job getting levels calibrated, however, and even with automated systems such as is beginning to be offered I would tend to still double-check with a meter.

When comparing a new 950 at $700 to a used Ref20 (for example) that is four years old and costs a bit more, consider a couple of things: does the other unit offer the 950's features (triple adjustable crossovers, component video switching, Pro Logic II, analog bass management on 5.1 input, stereo bypass for analog inputs), and does the warranty make a difference? A new 950 will come with a five year warranty, while a used unit may only have a year or so worth of warranty left (or less).

Thanks for all the responses. This decision isn't easy. I am considering using a Pioneer Elite VSX-54TX (essentially the same price) as the processor instead of the 950. I have done some research and some believe that the Elite would dominate the 950. I have no idea if this is true or not so can someone offer some advice?
Thanks!
Joe

The VSX-54TX has a nice array of features, and in spite of the $1500 MSRP I'm sure that some online shopping can turn one up for around the 950's new price, but I would be dubious of the suggestion that the 54TX would sonically be an improvement over the 950. It is of course possible that some people have tried both briefly and preferred the 54TX, but there are also cases routinely where the first impression with a new pre/pro is negative due to configuration mistakes. (For example, I have a co-worker who bought a Rotel RSP-1068 pre/pro and Rotel amp last summer, and spent the first weekend with it miserable because there was no low end to speak of - because the speakers defaulted to "small" with an 80Hz or 100Hz crossover to the sub and his system didn't have a sub to reproduce that low frequency material.) With Outlaw's 30-day return policy, you could always let your ears decide for you. Having owned a 950 for a while, I can comfortably say that the 950 would certainly work very well for you - not to mention the superior customer service you'll get from Outlaw (five year warranty rather than two, real people answering the customer support phones and able to give real support, and a group here in the forum with a wealth of knowledge).

once the 970 comes out the 950 will be even less... i would wait and see at least that way you can compare the pros/cons of them both.

Joe,

I purchased a 950b/770 combination in early October of ths year. I was hesitant to purchase a 950 because I too was thinking that perhaps it was a little long in the tooth, and I was thinking of waiting until newer features were available. I have not been disappointed in the least with my purchase, especially the performance that I get with the 950. My only regret is that I did not purchase this sooner. I upgraded from a Yamaha RX-V2200 reciever, which I'd augmented with a pair of Outlaw 200 monoblocks. The increased clarity and soundstage that I get from the 950 are far better than I was expecting. (Here's a link to my original thoughts: http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001384 )

If you truly wish to step into the world of separates to see what it is all about, I don't think that you could go wrong with a 950. And as Gonk pointed out previously, you get a 5-year warranty from Outlaw. And I doubt if you could put a price on the excellent support from the good people in the Outlaw Forums.

Jeff

Jeff, well said. I am certainly not looking to buy a receiver again only to use it as a pre amp but if it were sonically better then I may consider it. The high end separates are out of my price range. I currently have a 12 year old YAmaha receiver so I am th8inking that the 950 would be leaps and bounds better anyway

I have my Rocket 750's being delivered this week and I also got a good deal on an Adcom GFA 7605 amp so I really only need a good pre. Rather than futz around with research I'll just order it and if I don't like it then send it back. I ordered $4k worth of speakers which I have never heard of those would be much more difficult to send back.

I'm not looking for all the bells and whistles or the latest gadgetry. I only want very realistic music and movies in a 5.1 system in a well built quality product.

Thanks for all the advice, it was very helpful.

Joe

You can't really compare a receiver to the equivalent in price in a separate pre/pro because the receiver has all those amp stages that have to be paid for somehow. You can save $$ on digital as better software/chips are developed since the cost of the hardware is essentially the same. But power components *do not* obey that equation.

If you're buying 7 channels worth of power components in the receiver, they're making up the cost somewhere else.

Sonic quality of the 950 is outstanding. You wouldn't regret a purchase.

Joe,

If you do order the 950, please don't forget to come back and let us know what you think of it. I expect that we'll hear that you're happy with it and won't be sending it back.

Jeff

I will. I plan to order just after Christmas. I have to be sure i have some money after my wife is done shopping

Thanks again for all the advice.

Joe

I always like to buy hi-tech items one generation removed. The 950 will be at least 90% as good as its replacement but will probably be only 50% of the price. I'll be happy to forego that extra 10% of supposed "goodness" to save the $$$. (Is there anything really new on the horizon that is not included in the 950?) My hp digital camera is a little thicker than this year's model but it takes the same quality picture. My computer is slightly slower than cutting edge models but I've got five seconds to spare! My keyboard, a Yamaha S80 is actually superior in some ways to the latest S90, IMHO. Etc, etc.

Jay

I like this. In fact, for a lot of eqp I also do this. I have $7400 worth of amplification that I payed less than $3000 for, by waiting for used, and dealer demos.

To echo what JMS and Kevin have said, a model generation removed from the leading edge is a great saver. As I often need to do for myself, I’ll offer a few other bits of ‘fire retardant’ for the burning desire to have the latest and greatest.

One, even if you buy the Best-For-Now model, a year from now, you will no longer have the latest and greatest.

Two, even if you could reproduce the latest formats electronically, it can take a one, two or even three years before there is significant source material available with what is being advanced in electronics now. Consider waiting until the source material is on the market and the electronics are a good deal less?

Three, if there are multiple choices of format being advanced on the market, and later one comes to dominance with one other still available, why pay for more than you need now? By the time a format comes to dominate, the electronics for that format usually become cheaper.

Four, a piece of equipment is not really outdated, in the sense of usefulness, until it can no longer meet your requirements.

While I wouldn’t buy something now that I’ll have to replace in less than a year or two, I don’t need “bleeding edge” equipment either.

Good to know...a I enter the world of the Outlaw!
Thanks,
Bill

At an under $700 price point, the 950 is still a serious contender for a person's HT dollar, especially one wanting to get into the field painlessly. We must not forget that one thought that was bandied about when I first tested the 950 almost three years ago was that the 950's (then) under $1K price tag made it more of a "replace" technology rather than an "upgrade" technology for those of us who want the latest gadgets. The fact that it is still performing admirably for a large segment of the population is a testiment to its design.

It takes considerably more money to have both the sound (which to me is paramount) and the latest features. I upgraded a while back because that's just me, not because the 950 was sonically inferior.

For the budget minded, the 950 is still a home run.

I like the new site layout, RAF - very nice.

Thank you, gonk. It was long overdue.

I received mine in 5/2002 and been on the 3rd unit for various design QC issues. The current one sits in my rack since 3/2003.I've been happy with it's performance and user convinience, some quirks, but I can live with. I found the analog section to be very good for the price,but the digital section is nothing to write home about.Ever since I got the Denon 2900 uni player it has been more then obvious that the 950 can't compete with that,as far as it's Dacs goes.I also wanna have the latest PLIIx or Logic 7 to enhance my plain vanilla 5.1 movies. The onboard CES and forced EX/ES just don't cut it for me.I also like the new "auto eq" features that pops up on many new gears these days.So for me yes, it is long on the tooth and I'm looking for an upgrade.Whatever happened with Outlaw's plan to introduce a high end pre-pro? I would jump on that, but it's very quiet on the "western front"[pun intented].I might have to jump ship and look somwhere else.

help /// i have been eyeing this guy for awhile now .. i am strictly a 5.1 / stereo guy .. 6.1 and 7.1 is just more clutter .... buy good speakers with imaging and a good amp ... anyhow ... joined to get some input ... i ve tried so many units ... anyhow this is the solids in my system.. they wont change ..
Tannoy system 12 dmt II mains .. tannoy saturn 8 rear surround and a tannoy d6c center .. i have a ATI at1506 .. center channel is bridged for strong vocals etc ..anyhow .. i had started with a H K sig 2.0 ok but buggy .. not my sound .. then tried a avr 7300 using as a processor .. a beast .. nice .. but still not to my liking .. now .. i have liked this onkyo 801 .. the dts and dd and THX is the best ive heard .. note i do not use this for speaker power .. just process... now my only lack is the stereo is a bit lacking .. analog connected with tara lab prism 33... dig tara coax ... now its a toss on better of two .. but stereo .. i just want more .. i do need to get a better source .. music hall or nad .. CD ... but figure that a good processor in maybe the outlaw will take that coax from source and make it a great reproduction ... i also am looking at a denon 8000 let me know your guys input ... appritiate any help !!!

OUTLAW!!

we will help u figure it out!

For the stereo, do those sources offer analog bypass, or is the analog input getting converted to digital and processed? The 950 offers stereo bypass for any source, which prevents this sort of undesired A-to-D processing.

ive tried both ways gonk .. i was kinda hoping you replied have read a lot of your reeds ... anyhow .. at moment i use a dvd for a source on even my cd's but my curiosity is when you are sending coax or opt .. ( any digital signal ) to you processor you are using the dac in the processor .. in this case the 950 .. when using the analog R L to the CD input on processor you are using the on board dac in source unit (dvd etc) ... the onkyo 801 i have has direct and pure direct .. but these eliminate the Xover so no sub capability ..

anyhow gonk .. really wanting to now if i take (the plunge ) is the outlaw dac gonna take my coax from dvd player if listening to cd and give me a better conversion than the dvd itself or my onkyo.. .. or am i better keeping the onkyo and getting a musichall cd or nad cd player ...and is the outlaws 5.1 great or par ..

There are a lot of variables here. When using digital audio, you are using the processor's DAC. You also have the benefit of features like bass management (assuming your mains are set to small). With an analog input, bypass allows you to pass the original signal (generated by the source's DAC) to the speakers without any changes. The 950 does allow for some bass management even in this case: if the mains are set to small, a copy of the analog signal is processed to generate a signal for the sub. Which DAC is better is typically difficult to quantify. In general, I would expect the 950's DAC to match or beat a DVD player's analog performance. The only player I've used that I felt had DAC's comparable to the 950 is the Yamaha DVD-S1500, but I don't know that it is any better with CD playback. As for the 950's performance in 5.1 with Dolby Digital and DTS, I consider it a great processor. As others have said many times before, the 950 is a great performer at a really sweet price.

gonk,

Yes, the Pioneer 54TX, is a better buy than the 950 these days. I'm an outlaw fan, but these guys are not being subjective, they have outlaw on the brain. Feature wise, Pioneer wins hands down, better DACS, latest formats, and the list goes on. Room correction is very important, and MCCAC is getting very good reviews. THe next outlaw pre-amp processor will most likely be better than the 54TX, but the 950 is not period. The emotiva lite product is the only other product out there that will have most of the latest features at the 950's price point, if you are striclty looking at pre-pro.

i have to throw my $.02 in.

i would have to be MIGHTY hard pressed to buy a pioneer nowadays(or jvc,sony,kenwood,technics) they ,imo, are for the masses,the reputation they buit 25++ years ago has(i think) gone away,i would be mighty leary of any listed specs.over the years i have owned quite a few pioneer pieces(car and home) and probably heard 20 times as many.
not to say pioneer is bad,imo they are just not good,maybe i should go out and demo some pioneer,then again why?i'm,just not impressed anymore!


p.s. the best pioneer i ever heard had an analog tuner section!

p.s.s. i have a technics receiver for a second stereo,it jams 100x5,(x2 in stereo) but can't touch my 1050

b.t.w. i have always been for specialty companies,not a company that offers a complete line of everything for car and home,not that it's all bad,just my opinion.

Painttoad,

With the latest chips a/d d/a, especially for HT use, it's getting harder to disern between processors. 2 channel performance is where you see the big big difference. However, for HT use, I have seen reports where the 950 sounded almost as good as a lexicon MC-1. Remeber the Lex sold for thousands more than the 950, but the difference is that Oulaw used more recent hardware. The receivers are catching up, the issue with most receivers, is the amp stage. Pair one of these receivers with outboard amps, and you almost can't tell a difference for DD DTS use, (2 channel is a whole different ball game). I can't stress enough how important room correction is, and Pioneer's MCCAC is good..

i kinda thought the idea of a receiver is all in one....

granted my 1050 came with a b&k amp(used package deal) but i ran the 1050 alone just to test before i bought & ohhhh baby!pretty stout 65w.i do prefer the warmth of my b&k over the 1050,actually it's been so long,i forget what the 1050 sounds like in 2 channel!

The 7100 I just ordered will be my first external amplifier, but I have been disappointed in the 2 channel performance since switching from 2 channel receivers to home theater receivers. For me the major factor in moving to Outlaw seperates is the warranty. After having my receiver start going out after four years, I want a five year warranty, which you can't get from any receiver manufacturer (except for Sony ES series). I feel much more comfortable having my amplifier completely independent of the processor.