Present and former 950 owners: I thought we could all sound off in this one topic and save prospective buyers a bit of searching through the Saloon to hear a summary of our experience with the 950. What is your opinion of the unit after having some experience with it? How did it compare to other products you've owned?

As you start your reply, please say:

• If you are a current or former 950 owner,
• If you're thinking about buying one and have a question,
• If you bought something else, why not the 950?

I'm a 950 owner, I'm very pleased and couldn't have done better without spending two, three or four times more - hence my Outlaw nickname.* In combination with an Outlaw amp, a distinct improvement over my formerly upper-end Onkyo THX certified receiver. I would definitely make the same choice if I had to do it over again.

(*With 'bestbang' I don't mean to imply just 'loud,' I mean detailed and accurate even when loud.)

I hope prosepective new Outlaws will find this helpful. (Please stay on topic! If you have a large, single subject area to explore, perhaps start a new post or point to another existing post in the Saloon.)

ok, you got me.
i'm still a prospective buyer (950/7100+cables) with a few anxieties about pulling the trigger...

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source:- http://hometheaterhifi.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-29.html

author - Brian Florian
Not sure about the Vans (I mean, I don't know what their rated Impedance is). If they are not a particularly difficult load, a receiver can do well. With a decent AV receiver (with pre-outs) you can add a power amplifier later. That's how I use my Onkyo TX-SR800. There is not a single speaker hooked up to it. I felt, after looking at everything out there, that it was the best processor around $1K (better than the Outlaw for sure). The 950 really missed the mark on software. Its CPU is very slow and there are several errors in the way it does things (time alignment, digital input assignment etc).
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While I am inclined to believe the praises about the 950's sound quality, the above comments really make me worry. Can those shortcomings be overcome or we just have to live with them? Are they really that bad or simply inconveniences? should i wait for the new 970(???) with the fix?

reading a new owner's (jeff davis) rave comments of the 950/770 somehow give me something to hold on to if ever i pull the trigger.

ronald

testtone, I was in the same boat a few months ago and had some reservations about pulling the trigger on a new 950. I had read complaints similar to the one you posted and was unsure if the 950 would be up to the job. I was running a severely overworked Onkyo 601 in my brand new dedicated ht room and was extremely dissatisfied with the results. I'm running Swans 6.1s up front, a C3 center, and DIY rears built with the matching 6.5 poly mid-bass and tweeters from the 6.1s. When trying to reach levels within -10/-5 of reference the amp was clipping and I feared for my speakers lives. I decided it was time to suck it up and place an order. The 950 arrived the next morning and I spent the majority of the day getting things set up and calibrated. I chose not to go with the 770 amp, as enticing as it was, and instead purchased 5 Crown XLS series pro amps. I'm sure I'll get some mixed responses on that one, but I spent less on those amps than I would for an Outlaw, or any other consumer amp out there. I'm running two 202s for surrounds and rear surounds, a 402 for the center, a 602 on the mains, and a 602 bridged for the sub. I can't even begin to tell you how pleased I was with the end result. It was complete night and day for me. Suddenly dialouge was clear, effects were audible that I never knew were there, dynamics, impact, it was all there. I will of course attribute a lot of these improvements to the fact that I now had massive amounts of headroom thanks to the Crowns, but I would have to assume that the 770 or 755 would yield the same results. The 950 was about as easy to use as anything I've ever set up. It's a very straightforward, no frills piece of gear. You get what you get and that's it. But what you get is great sound and flexibility without the useless bells and whistles. I'm the kind of guy who likes to tinker and fine tune my system. I don't need auto room calibration or a ton of DSP settings that I'll never use. I like my gear to be user friendly and that's what the 950 is. There have been only two issues I've had, and they're trivial at best. First off, it takes a second or two to lock on to the audio format (DD,DTS) when a movie spins up. Not a big issue for me, but a minor annoyance when jumping to a scene in the middle of a movie. The second issue was having only two component inputs necessitated an outboard switchbox. Again, not a big deal for me, and not too many people need 5 component inputs. Beyond those two things the 950 has done everything I've expected it to do, and I've been more than pleased with the results. It's been said many times before, but to get this level of performance from another pre/pro, I'd need to pay 2,3,4 times as much as I did. Not worth it in my opinion. Pull the trigger, you won't be sorry.

I'm a 950 owner and have been for quite some time. It's certainly the best-sounding such piece of equipment I've used, and it continues to offer what I think is an excellent value. There are other pre/pros on the market that offer more features and can comfortably match its sonic performance, but they also cost more money - and some of them offer what I consider a more difficult interface. I'll offer an example: a co-worker (the VP of our small consulting engineering firm) decided to replace his Spectral two-channel pre-amp and amp with a surround system and elected to stay with the same dealer he'd used for many years. As a result, he ended up with a Rotel RSP-1068 and a Rotel five-channel amp. The package cost him about as much as a 950/755 combo would have after he traded in the Spectral gear (at a trade value that could have paid for a 950). The dealer is one of the best in town, but because he didn't pay for an installer to come out and set it up he received no support. I became his tech support, including a Sunday afternoon at his house tinkering with it. It was sort of fun to play with the Rotel and B&W combo he had, but afterward my wife and I both felt that our 950/750/Paradigm Reference system (at the time using a Panasonic DVD player as CD transport, although I now have a Yamaha DVD-S1500 in that role) sounded nicer and less harsh than his Meridian CD player/Rotel/B&W system. (Personal taste varies of course, especially when it comes to speakers, so YMMV.) On top of that, the interface and documentation on the Rotel were atrocious, especially when handed over to someone with no background in setting up a home theater system - Outlaw's documentation is much clearer and easier to use. Also, the free advise available here in the Saloon along with the free tech support that the Outlaws offer really can be a huge benefit for someone learning their way around a home theater system. The 950 was never meant to be the end-all surround sound processor - if that is the goal, there are some very good candidates available, but the price tags reflect the differences between them and the 950. The 950 was meant to be a good quality unit at a great price, and I still think it does a great job of that. Particularly for people who are new to home theater, the 950's interface, documentation, manufacturer tech support, and this forum also factor into the equation in the 950's favor.

testtone - I remember seeing that thread a while back. Brian's a very knowledgeable guy, and I think many of the benchmark standards he and others at Secrets have developed for both DVD players and surround sound processors are extremely valuable tools that manufacturers would do well to look closely at (including Outlaw in the development of future surround sound processors). I do wonder a bit about his comments regarding the 950, though. The 950 does have a few quirks (the slow digital audio signal lock has often been commented on, and the speaker distance settings for all four surrounds do share a common setting), but I've awlays been extremely happy with the digital input assignment method it employs and even when I did have an asymetrical surround speaker layout I found the time alignment worked fine for me.

I'm very excited to see what sorts of refinements and advances appear in the 950's eventual successor - additional surround modes like Pro Logic IIx, more extensive video switching, and so on - but I'm not yet ready to tell anyone who is interested in the 950 to sit on the sidelines and wait for it to arrive. The 1070 is still a few months off, and while I feel certain work has already begun on a 950 replacement I also don't expect to see that replacement start shipping for a year or more. A year of waiting would be infinitely more pleasant with a 950 to keep you company.

testtone,

I too am a prospective owner of the 950 and one of outlaws' power amps ( 3 m200's or a 7100 ). I have been slowly accumulating cash for this purchase, and so far, I have seen nothing to dissuade me from this course. I have hunted for negatives of the 950 and I must admit your link is the FIRST one I have seen, and I have not been shy about looking. I have also tried the Receiver route, but so far none has worked out for me.

Of course there is always the Outlaws 30 day money-back guarantee, which as far as I am concerned puts the situation in a no risk basis. If 30 days is not enough time for some detail to surface that is a dealbreaker for you, then it probably does not exist.

Just my .05 worth,

Bob045

I have owned the 950/7100 combo since July of 2003 and have never even considered sending back this equipment. This was by far the best audio investment that I have ever made. I have owned equipment from Adcom, Denon and Sony ES and have listened in detail to Anthem, Lexicon, Parasound, Rotel and B&K. Is the Outlaw better than Adcom, Denon and Sony ES, absolutely. Is it better than Rotel and B&K, it is close, but for the money yes. Lexicon, Anthem and Parasound are superior products, but $3,000.00 to $8,000.00 superior, no way!!! This is as close to true High-End Theatre sound without taking out a mortgage on your home to pay for it. The only notable fault I have ever found is the late 80's/early 90's NAD/Proton styling? If it saves me a few thousand bucks, so be it! Buy an Outlaw system, you will not be disappointed in the least.

When playing CD's in my DVD/CD player, I have found that the Stereo Bypass mode of the 950 is very very clean.

The Panasonic DVD91 unit has a CD upsample feature that creates a 24/88.2 signal in the player before D/A conversion, and it makes a signficant improvement in many recordings.

Do you use the CD upsample feature of your Yamaha DVD-S1500? I understand it upconverts to 24/192, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I was curious as to how valuable this feature was on the Yamaha.

Thank you in advance...

Allan

Crown is good. Many commercial theaters also use them. XLS series is very cost effective and performs great; it is similar to QSC's RMX series.

With the S1500, I have also found myself using stereo bypass for listening to CD's. With my previous DVD player (Panasonic RA60), I tended to prefer using the digital output.

The S1500's manual is not particularly clear on the matter of the upconversion. I do have it turned on, but there is a comment in the manual that suggests that it is treated as "off" if the output is set to "multichannel" elsewhere (which it needs to be in order to get multichannel playback from SACD's). I haven't had a chance to figure out if the stereo analog output still upconverts.

Crown is good. Many commercial theaters also use them. XLS series is very cost effective and performs great; it is similar to QSC's RMX series. [/QB][/QUOTE]


Yeah, I've been very pleased with the results so far. Being a musician and aspiring studio engineer, I was very familiar with what I'd be getting from a Crown. Of course the XLS is their "budget" line, but in a setting where they will most likely never be pushed as hard as they would be when used for live sound reinforcement, I don't think the "budget" label really applies. I certainly could have spent more money on some K1s or QSC PLX series amps, but I just couldn't justify the extra money for what may or may not be a margainal improvement. Though I will say that the K series is very tempting if the upgrade bug hits again soon. The only downside to the XLS series is fan noise. It's a non-issue for me since I have a dedicated AV closet on the opposite side of the wall my screen is on, but this would be a major issue if I had an AV rack in the listening/viewing room. I believe the QSC RMX series actually has more fan noise since it's a single fan as opposed to the Crown's dual fans. There are aftermarket fans that can be used to modify these amps and lower fan noise, but I'd rather not void the warranty. The decision to go Crown over QSC was strictly personal preference. I was not as familiar with QSC and thus decided to go with Crown. While I do love the Crown amps, the 950 is really the piece of gear I'm most happy with. If I wasn't giving the Crowns a clean signal to begin with I doubt I'd be singing their praises so much. I had a chance to listen to a friends brand new B&K setup recently and left his house confident that I had made the right decision. He's running the Ref 50, Ref 200.5, and a full Paradigm speaker setup. I did really enjoy the Paradigms (very articulate speakers), but I did not believe that the extra money he spent on the B&K elevated his system to a level that was sonically superior to the 950/Crown setup. And he's still lacking PLIIx, which puts his feature set basically in the same boat as the 950. The Ref 50 does sport the THX tag, but I don't think that necessarily makes for a better product. With the Ref 50 retailing for about $1800 right now, that extra $1000 seems silly. For me, and probably for most of us who own the 950, it's all about getting the absolute most for my money. I don't think that I'd be getting that with other products out there. As enticing as it is to have that flashy, big-name piece of gear, what it ends up being about is performance. At this price there's no competition.

I believe that when you switch back and forth between the normal Stereo input, and Stereo Bypass mode, the outlaw display will show the incoming signal frequency for a couple of seconds. Connected to my player, the 950 will display 44.1 kHz with upsampling turned OFF, and 88.2 kHz with upsampling turned ON. Also, switching the upsample feature on and off on the CD player should provide audible evidence of it's presence. I would guess that if the S1500 upsamples the digital signal, that it's D/A section would process the upsampled signal and output this to the analog outputs. That is how my unit works.

Please let me know what you discover, as the S1500 is a unit I have been waiting to hear for a long time. It missed it's market delivery date by a margin that would embarrass even the Outlaws.

Allan

From what I have been able to discern from Yamaha's documentation, the S1500 only upsamples the analog output (no upsampling for digital output), so the 950's display can't help me. What I'll probably try doing when I get a few minutes is simply try switching upsampling on and off to see if I can hear a difference. I'll let you know what I find out.

I've owned a 950 for approx. 1 month now and I keep wondering why I didn't jump on this preamp sooner. I have extensively revamped my home theater repeatedly over the past 1.5 years and finally have a system that I am very happy with. That means that I no longer feel the need to upgrade which is a first for me!!!

Over the past several months, I went from a Marantz SR7300 receiver to a Yamaha RX-V1400 to a Cambridge Audio Azur 540R (later partnered with a NAD THX216 amp) to a NAD T752 (later partnered with an Acurus 125x5 amp) to my current setup of the Outlaw 950 and Acurus amp. I also home demoed the Harman Kardon AVR430, the Denon 3805 and the Rotel RSX-1055 and I am so happy that I took the chance on the Outlaw. As I already had the Acurus amp (which I love), I figured that a preamp that costs as much as a receiver had to sound better than a receiver to justify it's cost. I had read tons of reviews on this site and the net and jumped on a used model for a great deal. Setup was very easy and the sound and detail that the 950 produces is terrific. I have experienced none of the problems some other people have complained about and feel that this preamp blows any receiver out of the water (with a good amp of course) that is anywhere near its collective price point. It may lack Dolby PLIIx and some DSP modes but I do not miss them in the least. Some say that the 950's design is getting long in tooth but I feel that it meets my needs perfectly and does exactly what it is supoosed to do. I could have stuck with the Denon if I wanted the latest and greatest but what I wanted was fantastic sound and the 950 delivers!

The 950 is VALUE - as much as it was when it was initially introduced. Could it be better? I guess we'll find out when it's successor is introduced in the future

I have owned the 950 for a couple of months after using the Marantz AV-550 for a few years. Both were/are coupled to a Rotel THX amp. Front speakers are Magnepan 12's, MMG's in the rear and a MMG-C. Absolutely love the bass management for each channel. The sound exceeds the Marantz with both music and dialogue. The remote is so-so particularly after using the Marantz remote. A very, very, good buy yet consider the $$ and it becomes an excellent purchase.

thanks bestbang for initiating the thread. actually, i've wanted to start one that would assist me in the decision. the comments from 950 owners especially those who have tried other units (rotel,denon 3805, marantz, yamaha, anthem, lexicon, parasound) are veluable inputs for me.
i am not excited about PLIIx and i will never be lured into DSPs. for me nothing beats an excellent stereo sound of music. no matter how hard i convince myself, DSPs just won't cut it. of course, HT is a different story.

thanks outlaws for their responses and OUTLAW for this forum. only here can i read honest, no non-sense, no market-hype review of 950 in comparsion to other pre/pro or receiver.

hey, but don't stop here. keep on sending your comments. good or bad.

ronald

I just passed 2 years with my 950.

I never listen to CDs, so I'm no help there.

I listen to DVD-A/SAVD and DTS CD MC discs through the 6 CH bypass using the 950's 80 Hz analog BM.

I run the SW out to a dedicated redirected bass subwoofer system and run the SW out of my player directly to a dedicated LFE sub system.

I watch DVDs in bypass mode also, except for the few EX/ES discs I own and rent, during which I use the 950 for decoding and sending to a 6.2 system.

The analog BM in bypass mode is extremely accurate and very clean. I don't have issues with digital delay because all 6 satellites are the same distance to the LP.

The 950 has always done exactly as advertised, right out of the box, and I'm very happy with the purchase, and will remain so until I hear someone else's set up that is a leap forward for the money.

I've said this many times and will repeat it here...with the purchase comes this forum, Scott and the gang, and the Mighty Gonk (not to mention a bunch more very cool folks who pop in frequently). If there is a problem, you barely blink and solutions are on the table...for 5 years after purchase.

That's worth a lot more than any review I've read ever mentions. Good luck finding that with Onk and the others (I tried that route before I purchased the 950, so I know 1st hand what a drag lack of service and help, tips, etc. can be).

I purchased my 950/755 combo little over two years ago and extremely happy with the performance and never felt need to upgrade my pre/pro at all. I started with some Pioneer receiver (I forgot what model) in mid '80's with regular dolby surround (4 channels) sound. Then went with Sony receiver to get dolby pro-logic sound. My first foray into seperate system instead of receiver was Adcom/Rotel systems. I had a chance to listen to several different pre/pro systems other than those but I ended up with Adcom system for very long time. When dolby digital and DTS came around, I used Technics add-on for DD and DTS processings until I purchased 950/755 combo. I am still using two channel Adcom amplifier along with 755 for my main HT room. I finally purchased Denon DVD 2200 for my SACD/DVD-A playback capabilities few months ago, it was a too good of deal to pass-it up. Anyway, since 950, I am listening to CD's more and watching DVD movies without thinking about my next upgrade anymore as far as pre/pro is concern. I am no audiophile by any stretch of imagination but this is the first time I am enjoying my HT without wondering what's my next upgrade is going to be. Honestly, for my listening preference and ears, I couldn't justify spending few thousands dollars more for other "high-end" pre/pros out there. The only upgrade that I am going to look for in the future is next big-brother of 950, whenever that is. My only problem now is to find more time to enjoy my HT due to my other commitments like jobs, families, etc....

Somewhat off-topic, (but I am a prospective 950 buyer)...
I've read much debate about cable lengths, and basically come to the conclusion that if long runs are necessary, it's best done with speaker cable than interconnects. My quandry is this: my room has an "electronics" closet in the rear/ side, away from the front speakers and projector screen. I had to make a choice about
1. keeping the pre/pro in the closet and running long interconnects to the separate monoblocks, or
2. keeping the monoblocks in the closet and running long speaker cable or,
3. placing the pre/pro in the front and running long interconnects to the rear amp.
I chose the latter because everyone warned me against long runs of either interconnects or cable(about 40 ft altogether after running up the wall, across the attic, down the wall, into the closet). I'm just wondering if that is really as important as some people indicate. I mean, how long must the wire runs be in a theatre, anyway?
My preference is #1, because it "cleans up" the room & eliminates a lot of component and wire clutter.

A bit more on-topic, why do so many folks stress over additional component outs (for future models)? I'd prefer to send the video direct to projector (or TV) and switch there without going through a pre/pro.

Also - is there any real usefulness to a Dolby headphone jack?

Thanks, Gonk for your great pre/pro comparison chart - it's a wealth of helpful information.

Let me see if I am interpreting you correctly: You have chosen to put the pre/pro up front, you will have short interconnect runs to L/C/R amp(s) up front, short speaker cable for L/C/R up front, approximately 40-foot interconnects from pre/pro to surround/rear amp(s) in the closet with up to 30-foot speaker cable to surrounds/rears?

You are also placing your source gear near the pre/pro?

If all the above is true, and you are using interconnects made from well-shielded cable such as that manufactured by Belden or Canare, and the speaker cable is of sufficiently low resistance, and the cable runs, either interconnect or speaker cable, are not involved with strong interference fields, like those that would result from running audio cable in parallel with power wiring, you should be OK.

It would be best to run a test installation prior to the formal install just to determine if you will have any trouble that will present problems. One that may sneak up on you might be a different ground potential or ground loops between the two locations in your room.

I hope that has been helpful.

BestBang,

You are correct about my current setup (except the speaker cables in the rear are not quite that long because the rear amp (in the component closet) is located close to the rear speakers) - but I'd like to change it. I'd like to place most or all of the components in the closet leaving the only the speakers out in the living room.

That would require 1. long speaker cables to the front L/R/C speakers (if all components are in the closet - and this is my preference) or 2. long interconnects if I keep the pre/pro near the front L/C/R speakers in order to keep the speaker cables short. I will use decent quality Belden interconnect wire if I do this. Also, in my attic, there are plenty of electrical wires laying around and while I can't avoid the interconnects having some physical contact, there are no electrical wires that will run parallel.

I've seen several cable sellers/manufacturers (such as [URL=http://stores.ebay.com/HDTV-Supply/Store-Home.html]) that advertise long *video* component or DVI cables, but audio seems relegated to the old discussions of those who think the type of speaker cable used is irrelevant and those who think $300/ft cables and interconnects are necessary.

While the various philosophies of use applied to interconnects and speaker cable have been bantered about the campfire here quite a bit, I had a similar question that I asked of Outlaw before I made my first Outlaw equipment purchase. I asked which they thought was better, mono amps at near each speaker (long interconnects, short speaker cable) or all amplification near the pre/pro (short interconnects, long speaker cable). Their answer was the latter. I think the reasoning is that electromagnetic interference, if present, would work its evil more easily on long interconnects than on long speaker cables. This would seem to bode well with regard to your intention of keeping most of the electronics in the closet intended for them.

Extra thought: will heat build up in the closet?

As far as speaker cable goes, many people are trying many things, my personal philosophy runs toward the technically verifiable. As a result, I would go for cable that is permissible in-wall, if you are running cable in-wall, and which will have a maximum round-trip resistance of 5% of the loudspeaker impedance, less than half that if such cable would be reasonable. Assuming 6-ohm nominal speakers, 5% resistance would be 0.3 ohms. Going 50 ft. out and back with 14-gauge copper yields 0.297 ohms, 12-gauge 0.187 ohms and 10-gauge 0.118 ohms. Less than 50 ft. would mean even fewer ohms. Speakers with higher ohm ratings could use lighter gauge wire, 4-ohm speakers would require slightly lower gauge wire. Perhaps, with the equipment at the rear of your room, you would use the heavier gauge for your fronts and center, lighter gauge for your surrounds/rear. Because the lighter gauge would run a shorter distance, the nearby speakers would see no more cable resistance than the more distant speakers. You could also use heavy not-so-flexible wiring inside the walls and more flexible and attractive cable between walls and equipment or speakers.

If you would like to read more on speaker cable ‘honesty,’ you might try these sites:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#gordongow

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html - discusses skin effect near the end of the page.

http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm

Wow, that'll teach me to screw up a post and not check it for several days.....

I was trying to echo this sentiment...

"I've said this many times and will repeat it here...with the purchase comes this forum, Scott and the gang, and the Mighty Gonk (not to mention a bunch more very cool folks who pop in frequently). If there is a problem, you barely blink and solutions are on the table...for 5 years after purchase.

That's worth a lot more than any review I've read ever mentions. Good luck finding that with Onk and the others (I tried that route before I purchased the 950, so I know 1st hand what a drag lack of service and help, tips, etc. can be). "

By all rights I should be one of the Outlaws biggest detractors. I'm on my fourth 950. The first three had various issues that can only be described as statistical anamolies as far as I can tell. The third one was replaced with no questions asked even though it was 6 months since the last replacement (well past the 30 day return period). Technically they didn't have to do what they did, but they did what was right without even flinching. Try that with a major electronics company!

We all agree that the product is a hands down deal regarding the sonic attributes compared to higher priced stuff. Take that and combine it with the service this company provides and I say you don't have anything to loose.

I think that if another 950 experiences trouble in aej09's setup, it's time to install about 250K worth of test gear and track every possible electromagnetic signal that might exist in his environment.

I also think aej09 has earned an award for perseverance!

Yeah, an award! I'll take a LFM-1

Like others, I was hesitant to pull the trigger on the 950, but since I did (about 8 months ago along w/ a 7100), I could not be more satisfied. I've never had trouble assigning the digital inputs, no detectable hiss whatsoever, the slow digital lock is only noticeable when changing SD-HD TV stations (and I can live with 1-2 sec delay). In fact, the only problems I've had is when my inner idiot comes out. It has all the flexibilty I need (and then some), and the sound is exquisite. The 950 is one piece of equipment that certainly lives up to its rep. And the information, assistance and plain old knowledge (without attitude) found in this forum is not duplicated anywhere else. When you add it all up and factor in the price, the 950 is a steal.

Does anyone suppose the replacement for the 950 will have *DVI* switching? I read a lot of requests for component switching...

Oops...I forgot to thank you, bestbang, for the cable links and comments. I'd visited Roger Russell's site previously, but the last link was good also. And re heat in the closet - minor problem, but I turn off electronics when not in use and have a small fan on the floor to circulate air when they're on.

The 950 replacement is still a ways off (not announced yet and all that), but the 1070 should offer us some clues. The 1070 adds a third component video input as well as video upconversion from composite/s-video to component, so it would be likely that the 950's successor will at least offer the same. The 1070 also has DVI switching (two inputs), so a 950 replacement will likely at very least offer similar DVI switching. It's also possible that a 950 successor will have HDMI switching in place of DVI. All if this is guesswork, however, since there hasn't even been a new Outlaw pre/pro announced yet, and we're not likely to hear such an announcement until at least the middle of next year.