I was just wondering how many of you are using a dedicated preamp for two channel listening and using the 950 strictly for HT. The 950 is my first experience with separates, but I keep hearing that even though it's "good" with 2-channel, I'm best served adding a good 2-channel preamp for music. I have a Denon 2900 and I usually run it with the 950 in stereo bypass mode, but I'm wondering how much of an improvement I would notice by adding a preamp to the family. I currently have Studio/100 v.2s up front, but will likely be moving up into the Signature line in a month or two.

Any thoughts?

I use a custom built vacuum tube stereo preamp for my front left and right mains. Using a stereo preamp for music only allows the use of a simpler signal path, which is always a good thing.

------------------
The Soundhound Theater

Following sondhounds lead I also use a vacuum tube stereo preamp.

Okay, I figured somebody here had to be running a separate preamp for music

Can either of you guys give me an idea of what the differences are? Subtle? Distinct?

And do you think I'd be better off with adding a preamp for 2-channel, or getting a better source for and running it stereo bypass through the 950?

Let me start by saying I did NOT build a separate preamp because I felt there was something lacking in my 950/770 setup. My reasons for the preamp was a combination of learning/hobby. I had read a lot about using tube electronics for audio for a while and on this board soundhound had always touted his use of these electronics. Myself being an absolute novice at how electronics work I jumped into the world of DIY tube stuff since there is a wealth of information/support on the web.

The first component I built was the tube preamp, mostly because it is the simplest and I didn't have speakers efficient enough to use with a power amplifier. After building this preamp I integrated it into my 950/770 setup in a fashion that allowed me to compare the tube preamp to the 950. I'll try and explain how I compared the two. I used a splitter on the stereo analog outputs from the Denon DVD player with one pair feeding the 950 and the other pair feeding the tube pre. I took the outputs from those two components and ran them into a switch box with the output going to the FL & FR of the 770. I could play a source on the Denon and set the volume of the two pre's with a sound meter to get equal volumes, then switch back and forth between the two to compare. In all fairness I did this to compare my built pre to the 950 because I felt the 950 was the standard to be met and I needed a reference point for any changes/tweaks I might try on the tube stuff. After many hours of listening and comparing the two there is a definite difference to me between the two but it is subtle, very subtle in this configuration I just described. I prefer the tube pre, possibly because it is the one I built and I want it to sound better. I do believe if someone were to compare the two in the fashion I describe above, that person may like the 950 better, maybe.

Now with all that being said in the past couple of weeks I have switched my system around a bit. First I upgraded the HT speakers to NHT T5's & M5's that are run from the 950/770 exclusively and for music I just finished a rebuild of a Dynaco ST70 powering a set of KEF's. So now the music is separated from the HT although I guess I could pipe the 950 into the Dynaco and see how that works, maybe this weekend. As it stands now I prefer the tube stuff for the stereo music, your mileage may vary. The 950/770 is still used for multi-channel DVD-A listening.

The 950 is superior to my previous Yamaha receiver as a preamp if that means anything.

Rack O' Stuff

First time trying to hyperlink so don't be surprised if it doesn't work.

The link works fine!

Looks nice...

I thought that the 950 did a great job with two channel music. This past couple of years I started getting really curious about tube stuff though. The Outlaw does such a great job with home theater that I am not spending my time trying to improve that area of my hometheater. So my attention went toward 2 channel stuff.

This past year, I invested in a tube amp, a tube preamp and a tube based cd player. I can compare the Outlaw 950/AT amp directly to the tube stuff because I use a switcher so that I can use both setups with my Martin Logan speakers. Is there a difference? You bet. There better be since I spent more money on the tube stuff. With the tube stuff, my soundfield is wider and deeper with more detail. It is hard to describe, but it is an improvement in my system.

My Theater

Jeff

I'm not a big tube fan (to each their own), but I use a Pass Labs X2.5 as my analog preamp, downstream from my 950.

The Pass and the 950 are not in the same playing field as far as 2-channel analog goes. I was shocked by the increase in dynamics, soundstage width and height and especially bass impact and depth when I put the Pass into the system.

That said, it's important to note that using two preamps can cause some significant headaches if you don't have full-range front speakers (luckily I do) and need to integrate a subwoofer(s). You'd need to either:
a) build or buy some sort of switchable crossover
or
b) have an active crossover and dedicated 2-channel subwoofer(s) and dedicated HT subwoofer(s).

Shouldn't be an issue w/ your 100s though, as you could just run them full-range from the analog preamp and crossed-over from the 950.

BTW, I did notice an improvement in HT bass by going this route. I previously set the crossovers in the 950 to either run the fronts full-range or crossed at 40hz, the center crossed at 60hz and the other speakers crossed at 80hz. I now run everything crossed at 60hz in the 950 and there seems to be a touch smoother. Probably less cancellation going on.


[This message has been edited by jgubman (edited September 16, 2004).]

Keta,
I've been toying with with the idea of acquiring some tube gear as a way to begin to learn more. I am impressed with what you've built. I was hoping that you'd give a little more info about the system that you built. Also, would you, or anybody else, direct me to some sites that can help me to begin learning more about tube audio? I have zero knowledge in this area. I appreciate any assistance that you guys can give. Thanks in advance.

Jeff

Jeff,
The preamp is a Bottlehead Foreplay Kit designed for the DIYer. Here They have a great forum filled with very knowledgeable people who can explain everything. The amp is a Dynaco ST70 and is most easily acquired on Ebay although they tend to be pricey there. Fire me an email and I can give you more specifics if you want.

Also a good one here
http://www.decware.com/

Hopefully this is a quick question... seems odd but i can't figure out how to easily get 2.1 sound from my DVD player while playing a CD (ie. just my mains and my LFM-1).

Sometimes I just want 2 channel with massive bass... my mains do it well but I have that big honking LFM sitting there, might as well feel it

Ick - forgot to say that it's a SONY DVD playing through a 950/770 combo via a TosLink cable...

If you have the main speakers set to "small" then you are already using your sub in stereo mode - the 950's bass management is applied to all incoming digital signals, regardless of the processing mode selected.

------------------
gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Yea, Small.. I have them set to LARGE and the red light on the LFM stays red to -6 dB when my ears are starting to hurt

HT sounds better with the mains set to LARGE and they are able to handle more than I can... The castle wall falling in LotR2 is amazing .. but no sub in STEREO

I wish I could just leave the DVD or the CD configured to "2 Large + .1". I would adjust it back and forth for Movies (Small Mains/DD) as I don't have much time for them (movies) now-a-days... But I do not want to adjust anything between SAT and DVD... Help !

Have you tried setting the mains to small and using a lower crossover point? Even big tower speakers often can't reach all the way down to the level of a subwoofer, but they also don't necessarily need to use the 80Hz crossover point that is the default. I used to use 40Hz as my crossover point when I had an SVS sub to help blend it with my Paradigm Studio/60's, although I switched up to 60Hz when I got the LFM-1. 40Hz or 60Hz might work well for you on both home theater and music material.

------------------
gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

You should be using Stereo Bypass mode. To use this mode you need to connect the L & R analog outputs of the DVD/CD player to the L & R analog inputs of the Outlaw 950.

Stereo Bypass sends the full range signal to the main channels all the time, even if the mains are set to SMALL. The low pass signal (set in the speaker crossover menu) goes to the sub when the speakers are set to SMALL and the Sub is ON. I beleive you will get what you want...

Good Luck.

Allan

That is an option for him, but there are two potential reasons why stereo bypass will not suit his needs well. For one, the 950's DAC may sound better than the Sony's DAC, making the digital connection preferable over the analog bypass. Also, he is running his speakers as "large" currently because he doesn't like the way the mains and sub blend for movies, meaning that in analog bypass he will still not get any information to the sub.

If the source player had the better sounding DAC, he could connect the left and right analog outputs of the player to the left and right inputs of the six-channel analog input and leave the analog bass management switch set to "off." Because of the way the six-channel input is designed, the mains would then get an unaltered full range signal and the sub would get a copy of the information below 80Hz from those channels without having to change his digital bass management settings. I'd only recommend that, however, if the source player had the better DAC.

------------------
gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

I, too, have a Sony DVD player (older model) that I am using for DVDs and CDs. I have both the optical and digital coax cables running between the Sony and the 950. I have the optical setup as input for DVD and defaulting to Dolby Digital and the coax setup for CD and set to stereo. This way I just choose CD for input when I want 2-channel.

But I too often have to crank up the volume to around -10 to-6 before the subwoofer kicks in. It's no big deal since once it kicks in I can turn the volume back down (or not ) and the subwoofer continues to be active. I have changed my fronts from large to small and this doesn't seem to really help. I probably just need to dialin the sensitivity on the subwoofer to get it to kick in sooner.

Jeff