I purchased a 950 to replace my wonderful but increasingly obsolete Lexicon MC-1. The 950 looked like a steal, but, alas, again I learn that there is no free lunch (or cheap grub, in this case). If you're primarily interested in video and/or pop music reproduction, you would be nuts to spend more than the cost of a 950, but I must advise against it for anyone who listens to acoustic music performed in a hall environment. The 950 simply ignores this aspect of musical reproduction. I'm not talking DSP here as in "hall," "jazz club," etc., but the DSP that allows you to frequency contour and delay the surrounds and control steering within Dolby processing to recreate a good ambient experience. In short, do what Lexicon does. I was also disappointed that the 950 does not permit separate speaker distance calibration for surrounds and rear speakers and limits you to 1db level adjustments. Neither does it pass OSD through its component outputs, not that in its native state it has many parameters to view. It's good. It's just not good enough for me.

And, your point is, what? That those of us who bought and enjoy the 950 are not smart, or less astute than you, or . . . .?

Thanks for sharing.

I am not a big fan of the 950's musical performance either but I am surprised you find the MC-1 as more musical. Lexicon is almost exclusively thought of as a HT processor. I have yet to hear anybody recommend a sub 3K Lexicon for music abilities. Just goes to show how everybody hears differently.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited June 11, 2004).]

So why did you not download and read the 950's owner's manual before buying it, to determine whether or not it had the capabilities / features that you were looking for? None of your points / findings would have come as a surprise to you had you done so. Would you buy a Lexicon product (or any other for that matter) without doing some basic research in order to make an educated decision to buy - or not?

Jeff Mackwood

Jeff Mackwood

Are you kidding? I think we need to spend a little time getting our head back on the straight. To expect the Outlaw 950 to have all of the features of the Lexicon MC-1 is wishful thinking, at best. With all of the information available online how could you possibly confuse the two. I think you should have spent some quality time with the 950 manual (available online me thinks) before you pulled the trigger on the 950. If you wanted to upgrade you should have bought the Lexicon MC-8 of course it costs approximately six times as much as the Outlaw 950, but what the hell. The Outlaw 950 is a fantastic piece of home theater gear, at a great price, but it’s not a Lexicon MC-1, or MC-8.

How about reading posts on this forum, or asking questions, or looking at Gonk's great comparison chart?

No. This guy joins the forum today, and posts once, to trash the 950.

Perhaps he was merely trying to stir things up.

Understanding the psychology of posting negative, "I wouldn't buy it" comments on a forum devoted to a product and its users escapes me.

This thread should be allowed to die, and I am sorry to prolong its existance.

[This message has been edited by michaelstano (edited June 11, 2004).]

i'm not a 950 nor a lexicon mc-1 owner. however, i wouldn't spend on something i know a little (or nothing?) about.
there must be a hidden motive for ordering, buying, and sending the unit back. whatever it is, it doesn't sound good.

Completely unrealistic expectations of a processor at this price period. I'm not sure what you mean by acoustic music in a hall setting but I listen to acoustic music and have no problem with the way it sounds. in fact I'm pretty damn happy with it.No it is not the best I have heard but for the money and not a dedicated "audiophile" system it is more than good.I don't think anyone has a problem with you saying it does not suit your tastes but you are comparing it to something three times as much. did you even take more than a day to try to calibrate it? everyone has there opinions and I really don't care if you hate this product or not but don't compare apples to oranges....just my opinion

It's completely lame to order something like this over the internet and not even bother to RTFM to determine the capabilities and limitations, especially when it's available on-line. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Now excuse me while I order some Viagra from a company I got some spam email from....

I find it strange that he said there is no speaker delay setting. I had to set the distance on my speakers when I set my 950/7100 up. I don't think he even read the manual when he recieved the 950(if he ever really bought one)or he would have noticed that it does control delay time. I guess it just did not give him the sound he wanted from his Bose speakers

Lasher

My sentiments exactly.

It's nice to make new friends. You might want to re-read the sentence in my original post that describes the 950 as an excellent buy for video and pop music reproduction. That hardly is "trashing." I'll add here that the 950 is as good as any unit on the market for what it is designed to do, Lexicon included. It just isn't designed to make an acoustical recording sound right in a surround-sound environment, and that is critical for me. The majority of users who listen to nothing but multi-miked, super-mixed pop music probably don't give a hoot. Yes, folks, I read the manual first but thought I'd give it a whirl just the same. I was eager for those component inputs and the SACD capability at a steal of a price. Can't audition an Outlaw in a store or take one home for an audition except by buying it. Who knew that the absent features might be less important sonically than I thought? Unfortunately, frequency contouring and delay DO matter, and there IS an audible effect to not being able to set distance parameters separately for surround and rear channels. I am waiting for the day Outlaw comes out with an upscale processor that does everything the Lexicon does at 1/5 the price. There is no reason they can't do it and no reason not to buy it.

In my humble and semi-informed opinion, if somebody wants a "preamp" with absolute and unaltered reproduction of music or any source with no degredation whatsoever, there is one simple option:

A PASSIVE "PREAMP" WHICH CONTAINS ONLY A VOLUME CONTROL WITH NO ACTIVE CIRCUITRY.

leave the guy alone already, everyone is entitled to their opinion. he to his and you to yours...

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This post has been brought to you by curegeorg, thanks for reading.

Good grief. As he says, you can't audition an Outlaw in a store or take one home for an audition except by buying it. He didn't realize that the absent features might be more important sonically than thought. And he followed the advice of many many who suggest that people who are sitting on the fence just try the unit and see if they like it. He read the manual before he got it home. I'm sure he's not the only one to take a chance, audition it with some reservations, then decide it's not for them. A home test is no free lunch. Sure he'll get his money back, minus shipping. But he probably spent a good deal of time researching it, connecting it to his system and listening to it.

Yes, folks, I read the manual first but thought I'd give it a whirl just the same. I was eager for those component inputs and the SACD capability at a steal of a price.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited June 12, 2004).]

Sheesh you guys are tough. He's not trashing it. He just tried it out and prefered something else. He still said it was good, just not good enough for him. The 950 is not for everyone.

Not being tough, just trying to get the main points here.

It appears that you're talking about a matrixed affair, a la Logic 7, otherwise, the delay setting of the surround back speakers is moot and controlling 'steering' isn't possible within Dolby processing.

I'm primarily interested in MC music of all types. This means that I don't need any delay settings. I modified the room to reflect my interest, and would never introduce 2 extra matrixed channels to add ambience, or anything else for that matter.

SACD and DVD-A are 5.1 formats played through the 6 CH BYPASS mode of the 950.

Manipulation of the surrounds in these formats is better achieved in the player, otherwise, conversion from analog to digital and back to analog would be required or, an outboard analog processor.

Acoustic music performed in a live environment I understand, but...within Dolby processing...loses me.

What serious listener of ANY genre of music would purchase it in DD?

'pop music' is never 'multi-miked' and acoustic MC music in a hall environment is usually 'super mixed', or, I don't know what these terms mean.

In fact, the 6 channel analog bypass mode of the 950, with it's extremely accurate 80 Hz bass management engaged, used with a good player, the right 5 satellite and subwoofer system, properly placed to eliminate the need for delay settings and separate amps with gain control offers EXCELLENT calibration tweaks and reproduction of SACD formatted, multi channel acoustic music performed in a hall environment.

I guarantee that it will sound better than any Dobly formatted disc, regardless of the preamp/processor used, or how the surrounds are electronically manipulated to the room and frequency contoured.

I've never met anyone who can hear a 1/2 dB change in the surround speakers, and, how would you measure that difference at the LP?

I'm able to engage routing schemes with my player and the 950 that are only otherwise available in the MC-12 model from Lex. Even then, the Lex would require the extra step of A/D/DSP/A conversions/manipulations. Would the Lex do it more accurately, sonically speaking? I don't know. I'd have to pay 10 times the price of the 950 and spend several weeks with the Lex to find out...something I'm not willing to do.

Ordering, buying, not liking (for whatever reason...some have not liked it because they thought it's 'ugly') and sending it back is perfectly reasonable. In fact, it's how the Outlaw model is designed to work.

I just got a bit confused trying to understand the reasons for not liking it.

Yes...this is a tough room. It's the kind of tough that doesn't tolerate generalizations well and this makes it a great place to learn all things MC audio and more importantly, all things Outlaw 950.

You can do very cool things with the 950 that aren't in the manual, and you can't do some things that might be a personal requirement and therefore, a deal breaker.

Of course, Lex makes GREAT products.

Well, this got a bit ugly. Let's review briefly.



TANSTAAFL is a very, very true bit of wisdom: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. The 950 is not a free lunch. Along those lines, I might describe it as a good and reasonably priced meal, however.



I'm a little unclear as to what processing you were expecting the 950 to have, and I think that's the bit that generated the most energetic responses here. Were you using Logic7 to play back stereo recordings in surround? Logic7 has earned itself a devoted following for such applications, but it is part of the reason that Lexicon's pricetags are so different from the 950.



The lack of individual speaker distance control was a source of much angst during the 950's original release, but as several people here noted it is clearly spelled out in the manual. I've never had a problem with the 1dB level adjustment limitation, nor have I heard any fuss about it.



Even among units being released today, OSD through component is rare. The bandwidth involved in component switching means that it takes some significant processing horsepower to generate an OSD: even on gear costing several times what the 950 goes for, component inputs do not have onscreen data overlayed, and only in the last year or less have manufacturers begun allowing for onscreen setup menus (which completely replace any input signal) via component output.



Surround Sound Processor technology is moving fast these days. I suspect that the next Outlaw SSP will be a great combination of features and sonic performance (and the 1070 that's due around the first of the year should offer a good preview), likely incorporating a great many of the features you have become accustomed to with the Lex. But one of the reasons that many people have complained at length about the 950 over the last couple years was an unstated desire for a free lunch (a pre/pro with every feature they would ever want to use, plus great sound, at a price several times cheaper than their "dream" pre/pros sell for) and the assumption that the 950 would be that free lunch. At $800-$1000, you will never get the full feature set and performance of a $6000+ pre/pro. Giving another nod to Heinlein, TANSTAAFL still holds true.

I'm sorry to hear that the 950 didn't fit the bill for you. Hopefully you'll find something that suits your needs -- the Lexicon MC-8 might interest you.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Many years ago(before Pro-logic was affordable)I was fortunate enough to attend a dealer sponsored demo for Lexicon and the MC-1(if memory serves correctly). Very impressive processing for music. You could set the size of the hall as well as the decay rate of the reverb, if that makes sense! The rep. would hit pause and instead of immediate silence, the sound decayed into silence as if you shouted in a real hall....I was impressed! That type of DSP I have never encountered below the Lexicon's price point.

I've always looked at listening to good stereo recordings thru ANY surround processing mode as a gimic more than anything else. Heck I value DVD-A and SACD for their greater dynamic range in 2 channel than I do for surround. Soundhound is right on as to a pure unaltered signal - get a Passive preamp.
Lastly I'm sure there are Preamps above and beyond the 950s capabilities(did ya ever read thru the Absolute Sound?!) But a preamp at 950 paired with a 7100 0r better is a great buy!

That hasn’t been my experience. During the last couple of years I’ve helped two friends install 950s in their systems and in both cases the 950 sounded excellent with acoustic music. One of these was in a 5-channel bedroom system where the owner had a DC-2 in his main living room system. Naturally, we couldn’t resist the urge to do a A-B comparison. After level matching as best we could (RatShack voltmeter at the outputs) we did a blind comparison. The only difference we could detect with any consistency was that the 950 sounded like it had slightly better resolution. Not surprising, considering that the 950 had technology and components that were 3 to 4 years newer than the DC-2. (FYI, the audio section of the DC-2 is identical to that of your MC-1, part for part.) In the end, it turned out that a small adjustment of the DC-2’s treble was enough to dial away most differences we heard. Still impressive, considering that Lex cost multiple times that of the 950.

Over the years I’ve heard the ‘sounds great with movies but not with music’ charge repeated over and over again about Lexicon processors. (Makes me wonder how it handles music in movie soundtracks.) It’s not surprising to find this damning-by-faint-praise now leveled against the 950. One of the traits I’ve noticed that’s common between the 950 and Lex pre-pros (and even Meridian gear) is their sound: clean and neutral. By comparison, many high end pre-pros sound coloured; but it is precisely this colouration that audiophiles often label as "musicality". As you’ve discovered (see quote below), the only way to get this supposed "musicality" out of neutral sounding pre-pros is to actually colour the sound; something the Lex and Meridian processors were specifically designed to do, via their signal processing. The only Dolby processing that allows you to delay the surrounds and control steering is the PLII Music mode, for which the 950 does not ignore any aspect of musical reproduction. PLII is implemented exactly the same on the 950 as it is on Lexicon’s MC-8 and MC-12. It’s a product licensed form a third party and conforms to the parameters set forth by Dolby Labs.

The other DSP functions you mention may not be Hall or Jazz Club modes, however they are specifically part of LOGIC7 processing which is proprietary to Lexicon. Considering that those features (Surround Rolloff & Rear Delay Offset) are not even available on the LOGIC7 found in H/K receivers, it is unrealistic to expect them in the stock processing that the 950 has. As you yourself said, there's no free lunch nor cheap grub. If you want features specific to Lexicon processors, there’s only one place to find them. And you gotta pay the price. As Gonk mentioned, the MC-8 might be a better fit for your needs. But hang on to your wallet because the the best street price I've found for the MC-8 is still quadruple that of the 950.

BTW, comparing pre-pros from various manufacturers to the ones from Lexicon and Meridian can be a bit different than the usual comparisons, especially when it comes to the processing technology. Unlike most processors, which license their processing (from Dolby, DTS, THX, etc), these two companies make processors with the express intent of being platforms for their proprietary technologies. Neither do most pre-pros, including Lexicon’s flagship MC-12.

Best,
Sanjay

I sent some e-mails to Bryston and Lexicon regarding their philosophy on passing OSD through component video outputs. Bryston unhesitatingly says their SP 1.7/SPV1 combo does it. Lexicon says their two units do as well but only with a blue screen, and their volume control change does not display. That Outlaw omitted it at the price level of the 950 is understandable, I suppose, but that doesn't mean that its absence doesn't cause inconvenience. I'm quibbling here over an issue that is hardly on a par with international terrorism on the importance scale.

All things being equal, I would rather not have any additional processing in my video path. The convenience of an on-screen display would not be worth it to me if it meant additional electronic stages the video signal had to go through, possibly causing degredation. I use direct DVD player to projector connection to ensure the shortest and least processed/switched/buffered video signal path.

I am always somewhat miffed when I see equipment reviewed as fine for movie soundtracks, but not as good for acoustic music.
Are there not some movie soundtracks that are excellent examples of music reproduction?

Most music soundtracks are excellent recordings, made with purist techniques and extremely good equipment. By the time it ends up with sound effects and dialog, and processed with Dolby Digital or DTS encoding, that is another matter.

Hi Soundhound,

Can you point to a reference in the literature somewhere where professional sound engineers or mainstream musicians will say as a professional, using their own name, that they prefer stereo soundtracks over Dolby Digital or DTS? I've heard people say that that's true, informally. But so far, I could not find it reported in the literature. Chances are though, I don't know where to look though, since I'm not a professional sound engineer as you are, or a professional musician.

Thanks!

Will

No I can't. It just isn't a burning enough issue for me to follow what other's opinions are about it. You might try www.mixonline.com which is one of the largest professional sound magazines in this country. They have a section devoted to film sound in each issue.

How much does this differ, and does it always, from DTS/DD audio recordings?

Music master recordings for films are made in much the same way that classical recordings are made. Many are still mastered with Studer 24 track analog tape machines (the extra tracks are used only for emergency coverage if for instance an important flute solo needs to be brought up - the overall pickup is usually done with the "Decca Tree" configuration of 3 mics), and are usually mixed directly into a digital audio workstation at 24 bit resolution. The sound quality is every bit as good as what you would get on a DVD-A or SACD.

Dolby Digital and DTS are much like the mp-3 format where as much as 90% of the signal is "thrown away" because it is deemed "inaudible" by the codec. DTS does not discard as much as DD, but it is nonetheless a lossy format. This is how all film soundtracks are released in theaters and on DVD because of bit rate requirements which must make room for the video signal.

Most people don't notice the degredation since they have no way of hearing the original master recordings. In a direct comparison with the masters, all lossy formats are clearly deficient when played on good equipment in a controlled listening environment.