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#26077 - 06/14/04 03:02 PM Re: I ordered, I bought, I sent it back
sdurani Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Monterey Park, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by tbng:
If you're primarily interested in video and/or pop music reproduction, you would be nuts to spend more than the cost of a 950, but I must advise against it for anyone who listens to acoustic music performed in a hall environment.
That hasn’t been my experience. During the last couple of years I’ve helped two friends install 950s in their systems and in both cases the 950 sounded excellent with acoustic music. One of these was in a 5-channel bedroom system where the owner had a DC-2 in his main living room system. Naturally, we couldn’t resist the urge to do a A-B comparison. After level matching as best we could (RatShack voltmeter at the outputs) we did a blind comparison. The only difference we could detect with any consistency was that the 950 sounded like it had slightly better resolution. Not surprising, considering that the 950 had technology and components that were 3 to 4 years newer than the DC-2. (FYI, the audio section of the DC-2 is identical to that of your MC-1, part for part.) In the end, it turned out that a small adjustment of the DC-2’s treble was enough to dial away most differences we heard. Still impressive, considering that Lex cost multiple times that of the 950.

Over the years I’ve heard the ‘sounds great with movies but not with music’ charge repeated over and over again about Lexicon processors. (Makes me wonder how it handles music in movie soundtracks.) It’s not surprising to find this damning-by-faint-praise now leveled against the 950. One of the traits I’ve noticed that’s common between the 950 and Lex pre-pros (and even Meridian gear) is their sound: clean and neutral. By comparison, many high end pre-pros sound coloured; but it is precisely this colouration that audiophiles often label as "musicality". As you’ve discovered (see quote below), the only way to get this supposed "musicality" out of neutral sounding pre-pros is to actually colour the sound; something the Lex and Meridian processors were specifically designed to do, via their signal processing.
Quote:
The 950 simply ignores this aspect of musical reproduction. I'm not talking DSP here as in "hall," "jazz club," etc., but the DSP that allows you to frequency contour and delay the surrounds and control steering within Dolby processing to recreate a good ambient experience. In short, do what Lexicon does.
The only Dolby processing that allows you to delay the surrounds and control steering is the PLII Music mode, for which the 950 does not ignore any aspect of musical reproduction. PLII is implemented exactly the same on the 950 as it is on Lexicon’s MC-8 and MC-12. It’s a product licensed form a third party and conforms to the parameters set forth by Dolby Labs.

The other DSP functions you mention may not be Hall or Jazz Club modes, however they are specifically part of LOGIC7 processing which is proprietary to Lexicon. Considering that those features (Surround Rolloff & Rear Delay Offset) are not even available on the LOGIC7 found in H/K receivers, it is unrealistic to expect them in the stock processing that the 950 has. As you yourself said, there's no free lunch nor cheap grub. If you want features specific to Lexicon processors, there’s only one place to find them. And you gotta pay the price. As Gonk mentioned, the MC-8 might be a better fit for your needs. But hang on to your wallet because the the best street price I've found for the MC-8 is still quadruple that of the 950.

BTW, comparing pre-pros from various manufacturers to the ones from Lexicon and Meridian can be a bit different than the usual comparisons, especially when it comes to the processing technology. Unlike most processors, which license their processing (from Dolby, DTS, THX, etc), these two companies make processors with the express intent of being platforms for their proprietary technologies.
Quote:
Neither does it pass OSD through its component outputs
Neither do most pre-pros, including Lexicon’s flagship MC-12.

Best,
Sanjay
_________________________
Sanjay

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#26078 - 06/17/04 10:38 AM Re: I ordered, I bought, I sent it back
tbng Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 23
Loc: Red Lion PA USA
I sent some e-mails to Bryston and Lexicon regarding their philosophy on passing OSD through component video outputs. Bryston unhesitatingly says their SP 1.7/SPV1 combo does it. Lexicon says their two units do as well but only with a blue screen, and their volume control change does not display. That Outlaw omitted it at the price level of the 950 is understandable, I suppose, but that doesn't mean that its absence doesn't cause inconvenience. I'm quibbling here over an issue that is hardly on a par with international terrorism on the importance scale.

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#26079 - 06/17/04 11:46 AM Re: I ordered, I bought, I sent it back
soundhound Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 1857
Loc: Gusev Crater, Mars
All things being equal, I would rather not have any additional processing in my video path. The convenience of an on-screen display would not be worth it to me if it meant additional electronic stages the video signal had to go through, possibly causing degredation. I use direct DVD player to projector connection to ensure the shortest and least processed/switched/buffered video signal path.

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#26080 - 06/20/04 09:10 PM Re: I ordered, I bought, I sent it back
DaleB Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 146
Loc: Clovis, CA,US
I am always somewhat miffed when I see equipment reviewed as fine for movie soundtracks, but not as good for acoustic music.
Are there not some movie soundtracks that are excellent examples of music reproduction?

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#26081 - 06/20/04 11:58 PM Re: I ordered, I bought, I sent it back
soundhound Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 1857
Loc: Gusev Crater, Mars
Most music soundtracks are excellent recordings, made with purist techniques and extremely good equipment. By the time it ends up with sound effects and dialog, and processed with Dolby Digital or DTS encoding, that is another matter.

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#26082 - 06/21/04 02:19 AM Re: I ordered, I bought, I sent it back
Will Offline
Desperado

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 605
Loc: LA's The Place
Hi Soundhound,

Can you point to a reference in the literature somewhere where professional sound engineers or mainstream musicians will say as a professional, using their own name, that they prefer stereo soundtracks over Dolby Digital or DTS? I've heard people say that that's true, informally. But so far, I could not find it reported in the literature. Chances are though, I don't know where to look though, since I'm not a professional sound engineer as you are, or a professional musician.

Thanks!

Will

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#26083 - 06/21/04 06:32 AM Re: I ordered, I bought, I sent it back
soundhound Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 1857
Loc: Gusev Crater, Mars
No I can't. It just isn't a burning enough issue for me to follow what other's opinions are about it. You might try www.mixonline.com which is one of the largest professional sound magazines in this country. They have a section devoted to film sound in each issue.

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#26084 - 06/21/04 04:55 PM Re: I ordered, I bought, I sent it back
DaleB Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 146
Loc: Clovis, CA,US
Quote:
Originally posted by soundhound:
Most music soundtracks are excellent recordings, made with purist techniques and extremely good equipment. By the time it ends up with sound effects and dialog, and processed with Dolby Digital or DTS encoding, that is another matter.


How much does this differ, and does it always, from DTS/DD audio recordings?

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#26085 - 06/21/04 06:39 PM Re: I ordered, I bought, I sent it back
soundhound Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 1857
Loc: Gusev Crater, Mars
Quote:
Originally posted by DaleB:
How much does this differ, and does it always, from DTS/DD audio recordings?



Music master recordings for films are made in much the same way that classical recordings are made. Many are still mastered with Studer 24 track analog tape machines (the extra tracks are used only for emergency coverage if for instance an important flute solo needs to be brought up - the overall pickup is usually done with the "Decca Tree" configuration of 3 mics), and are usually mixed directly into a digital audio workstation at 24 bit resolution. The sound quality is every bit as good as what you would get on a DVD-A or SACD.

Dolby Digital and DTS are much like the mp-3 format where as much as 90% of the signal is "thrown away" because it is deemed "inaudible" by the codec. DTS does not discard as much as DD, but it is nonetheless a lossy format. This is how all film soundtracks are released in theaters and on DVD because of bit rate requirements which must make room for the video signal.

Most people don't notice the degredation since they have no way of hearing the original master recordings. In a direct comparison with the masters, all lossy formats are clearly deficient when played on good equipment in a controlled listening environment.

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