Outlaw 950 vs. Sherwood Newcastle P-965 Preamp. Does it make sense to spend extra money and go with the Sherwood? How do they compare?

-Ed

The P-965 is a step up from the 950 and is in my opinion worth the extra money.

[This message has been edited by Cliff Watson (edited May 20, 2004).]

I thought they were the same unit ?

How is it a step up? Aren't all 24-bit+ A/D/A's the same? Does it have a more discreet routing path? What's the difference?

-sbc

The P-965 does offer some new features, but I haven't heard one to know if it offers any sonic benefit. I had a heck of a time finding out details about it when I updated my pre/pro chart: there are several blanks in the chart still due to minimal documentation, and the "find a dealer" page of the site is still "coming soon." It might be worth a demo - especially if you can find a dealer who reps Sherwood and either Atlantic Tech or Sherbourn (so that you can compare the 965 to one of the 950 clones).

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Oh, is it the Sherbourne unit that is the same ? Not sherwood ?

Correct - Sherbourn and AT both have 950 clones on the market (the PT-7000 and P-2000, respectively). The Sherwood is a separate product, which only came to market in the last few months.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

”The P-965 does offer some new features, but I haven't heard one to know if it offers any sonic benefit.”

Gonk,

The P-965 does provide better sonic benefit (at least in my home theater) than the 950. There are many new features that make the extra $700 well worth the cost. The 950 is an excellent product at its price point and the P-965 serves the same purpose at its higher price point. Some of the many supported features are:

1) Firmware upgrade by the user through Serial Port (RS232) or USB Port.
2) System control through the serial or USB ports.
3) Supports USB audio from a computer.
4) High bandwidth relay based component video switching (less video noise than IC switching).
5) Supports DPLIIx and MPEG audio (the next (first?) user firmware upgrade will add DPLIIx to the 8 channel direct input and will derive the back channels without changing the original 5.1 channels. This firmware upgrade will also add adjustable audio delay to better match lip sync when using digital displays).
6) All video inputs from composite and S-Video converted to component output.
7) Better remote control. Comes with Sherwood branded and pre-programmed MX-500 remote and another remote for ROOM2 control (does not include Multi-Room System Kit).
8) Has Coax Digital for ROOM2 in addition to analog stereo and video.
9) Has Pure Audio mode that shuts down all video and digital processing circuits to reduce system noise.
10) Has front video inputs under a panel door for S-Video, Composite, Analog Stereo, and Digital Optical.
11) Faster audio decoder mode switching in Auto Mode.
12) Decodes DTS 24/96
13) Decodes Multi-Channel MPEG Audio (hoping AAC will be added in a firmware upgrade).
14) DPLIIx can be used with all digital audio formats to derive 2 back channels in addition to stereo.
15) Supports Dolby Virtual Speaker and Dolby Headphone.
16) Has separate LFE Level Trim for Dolby Digital, DTS and MPEG audio.
17) Better FM tuner (much cleaner even with the included dipole antenna).
18) Digital Re-Mastering to 24bit/192kHz
19) 8CH Direct analog input instead of 5.1
20) Can go direct from stereo mode to 8 channel direct mode without having to pass thru a multi-channel mode first.

I don’t know why but the analog input sounds much better when processed thru the P-965. Before my XM Satellite Radio had to be processed by a separate device (Firewire portable sound recording device) before the analog input on the 950. Now I go direct to the P-965 and it sounds great.


[This message has been edited by Cliff Watson (edited May 20, 2004).]

Here's some reading for you because this article brings out all my concerns with "upsampling" better than I can.

www.onhifi.com/features/20010301.htm

Other than that, there are some nice features in that Pre/Pro that maybe should be incorporated into an Outlaw product at some point. However, IMHO, I don't really see how any of them are really going to effect the overall sound quality all that much.

If a SOURCE was recorded at 16 bit 44.1K sampling rate, converting up to 96K, 192K or how many K you like, has no effect on the actual waveform or how it is heard. There is no difference.

Yeah, forget about all the bells and whistles. I just want to make sure the 950 is comparable sound-wise. I'm not too worried if it is going to be eventually upgraded...every processor is always upgraded. That's why I don't want to spend thousands on one. However, a computer uplink is nice so software upgrades can be done by the end user once the patch is posted, etc.

-sbc

That could very well be, but I've found no reason to enable Digital Re-Mastering on the P-965.

The only way you will know for sure if one is better than the other is to compare them yourself. I have and the P-965 stays in my rack as a result.

this argument is stupid! sherwood's older pre/pro and the 950 were the same unit (except for cost), so one could assume similar sound quality from their new pre/pro. having said that, the features then would give the edge to the sherwood. and having said that, sherwood is junk. lol.

You do mean the Sherbourne is the same as the 950, I assume. You seem to have fallen into the same trap as others that don't know the products they speak of.

no, the new 965 is different, i was pointing out that you should be able to expect the same sound quality from it as you can the 950 and the older sherwood.

I’ll say one good thing about the 950..it retains value! After deciding to keep the Sherwood Newcastle P-965 (for obvious reasons), I sold the 950 within 18 hours of listing it for sale.

Yes, the 950's are highly regarded, doesn't surprise me that it sold quickly.

Cliff is correct: I think you're still confusing Sherwood and Sherbourn.

Sherwood makes the P-965 being discussed here. Sherbourn has a pre-pro that is, as you put it, "the same unit (except for cost)" as the Outlaw 950.

Best,
Sanjay

Sanjay,

It seems that some people in this and other threads don’t know there are two Sherwood product lines. There is the entry level Sherwood America and the higher level Sherwood Newcastle lines. Compared to the 950 the Sherwood America line is crap, however the Sherwood Newcastle line is a step up.

[This message has been edited by Cliff Watson (edited May 21, 2004).]

yes, i was mistaken. ignore my posts on the sherwood, other than the part of them being junk. i was thinking of the sherbourne pre/pro, not anything by sherwood. sorry for the increased confusion.

[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited May 21, 2004).]

If you don’t know the difference between Sherbourn and Sherwood Newcastle your opinion as to the Newcastle quality is meaningless.

i know the difference, moron, i just accidentally thought the old pre/pro i was thinking of was sherwood. sherbourn and sherwood and not too far different from one another name wise. and to admit ones mistake, does not invalidate everything else said by him.

point taken admin.

[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited May 21, 2004).]

Let me take a minute from scowling at fire codes to play referee here. Alas, I doubt I can be as effective as SLL would be at this...

That people have gotten confused between Sherwood and Sherbourn is unfortunate, but not necessarily surprising on a forum that is provided by a third unrelated company and largely populated by owners of that company's equipment. Be that as it may, we've now sorted it all out and it is time to move on. There is no benefit to be gained from harping on the confusion or from hurling insults. Everybody just chill out.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

[This message has been edited by gonk (edited May 21, 2004).]

This is a fair warning from your administrator. We welcome spirited discussion but frown on insults. Anyone who does not abide by the saloon rules is subject to removal from this forum.

sbcgroup1,

One last feature of the Sherwood Newcastle P-965 and then I’m out of here.

All the inputs can be labeled on Pre/Pro and the remote control. The label can be anything up to 8 characters.

I'll throw in a couple comments about the P-965. I've had this thing for a month and I finally got around to hooking it up a few days ago. I have to say, since having a home theater since 1996, I now have the most incredible sound I have ever heard coming through my speakers. I can't get over the detail, accuracy and seperation of this thing. I've been playing my demo discs and hearing things I've never heard before.

I should also mention that this is the quietest pre/pro I have ever owned. I've never had an HT setup so hiss and hum free since my receiver days back in the mid 90's. There is literally no noise floor what so ever. I have to press my ear against my speaker cover to hear a little tinny tweeter hiss that stays constant no matter where the volume is set; and my Paradigms are very sensitive to noise.

I'll comment further once I use it more, and I'm only running five channels at the momment, so I can't say anything about the DPLIIx at this time.


Jeff

PS: In all fairness to the Outlaw guys, I haven't tried the 950. I came to the Saloon to read about the new Outlaw gear. My further comments about the P-965 will be on AVS.



[This message has been edited by Majestyk (edited May 24, 2004).]

Jeff,

I agree that the P-965 is so clean and quite that you can hear grass grow and has a much bigger sound stage than the 950 it replaced.

If there is no difference why do all DAC manufacturers use over-sampling? Maybe because of noise generated by the brick-wall filter at 22kHz?

I finally got around to checking the Digital Re-Mastering feature on the P-965 and it does sound different when engaged. For Redbook CD audio I prefer the increased soundstage and more detailed high frequency with Digital re-Mastering to 24/192.