Just curious to see if/how atypical my situation is. I am now on my third B-stock 950.

The first one had non-functioning 5.1 inputs.

Number two had a static problem in the center channel that started with analog sources, then moved on to effect digital sources as well.

Number three arrived 4 days ago and has static problems on the left front speaker.

Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely love everything about the 950 - when it works, and Steve has been great to deal with on the customer support end. Just wanted to know how many units people have had to go through before they got one that works properly.

Thanks in advance,
Steve

I've got the 950/770 combo. It's not a B stock, so can't comment from that perspective. But, I've had virtually no problems. I've had some hissing and humming from time to time, but those were ground issues and unrelated to the equipment.

I received mine about a week and a half ago. Thank god it appears to be working flawllesly, because since I live in Brazil, it would be a pain in the ass to get a replacement.

If you haven't come across it already, you might find this thread in the Outlaw to Outlaw forum of particular interest. It's not much help when you're dealing with faulty components, but I do believe that your experience is not typical, and I look forward to hearing you report on the 950 when you have settled in with a healthy one.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Wow! Talk about unheard of customer service! I just received a call from Steve at Outlaw (at 9:30 on a Sunday morning) regarding this last unit. Definately above and beyond the call of duty.

sfield,

I received mine about a year and a half ago.

I've never had any sort of problem.

I've also enjoyed what I consider to be the best customer service from truly cool people since the day I found this site.

The Saloon has been/is populated with some very smart, quite vociferous folks, who reported every gripe and sorts of quirks and bugs a modern pre/pro could possibly have.

Some of the Outlaws have moved on to much more expensive pre/pros in their search for a specific feature set that satisfies their own particular requirements, but most of them remain Outlaws, and have reported surprisingly minimal sonic improvements for the jump in price.

The poll, if you look at it that way, can be gleaned from the thousands of posts recorded in the archives of this forum, IMO.

The 950 is one of the most scrutinized pieces of electronic hardware I've ever heard of, yet it consistently has piled up a mountain of praises, and rightfully so.

It's always a drag to receive shipment of a product like the 950 that, multiple times, has a defect, but...unlike many other companies products/service in this situation, you WILL be able to communicate and find satisfaction quickly through the best warranty in the biz, handled by some of the most able people in the biz.

When I finally upgrade to the next-gen pre, I'll hang onto my 950, because I consider it to be an audio classic, and it will take it's place alongside the stereo preamps I've kept from Crown, Macintosh and Phase Linear.

Hang in there. Outlaw will see that you get what you paid for, and the Saloon will be here to insure you get the most out of the purchase...really.

The short version: Perfect, right out of the box...zero problems over thousands of hours of playback of CD, SACD, DVD-A, DTS, DTS-ES, DTS-CD, DTS Neo 6, DD, DD-EX, DPLII, Analog Stereo Bypass, 6 CH Bypass and AM/FM.

My 950 has also exhibited outstanding audio performance since Day One.

For two years now, I've stated and restated the fact that Outlaw has the Best Customer Support In The Business.

And I just stated it again. It's still true.

Have had my 950 for almost a year now, I purchased it new but have not had a single problem with it. I did start a thread last week because I read of a couple of situations like yours where the customer had to go through several units before receiving one that worked properly. Hope Outlaw just sends you a brand new unit instead of B-stock just for the trouble you have been put through.

I am on my FOURTH new (not b-stock) unit since June 2003. I sympathize with you. But it sounds like you are getting the standard red carpet treatment. Good luck.

One year on a non-B 950/7100 combo. Smooth sailing.

Sfield,

I tried 2 units (both were new) and both of them had intermittent problems. Intermittent problems can be very difficult to diagnose & repair, I guess I’m glad I found these problems before the 30 day trial period was up. I returned both units and decided not to try a third.

sfield:

“static problem” Do you mean like this one? http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000308.html

Spiker-

No, it's not an overheating problem. It's got lot's of ventilation. I've spent a fair amount of time talking to Steve at Outlaw, trying to track down the root of the problem, and for now it seems to be fixed, though what fixed it (switching to the 6-channel input) seems preety random to me. But we'll see. If it comes back, I know Outlaw will take care of me. If it doesn't, I quess we'll just chalk it up as one of life's mysteries.

-Steve

Well, the problem came back. To make a long story short, spent more time with tech support, and they sent me another 950.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Steve

sfield,

can you describe your "static" problem a little more? I'm having what I think is a similar problem, most noticable when I'm watching something w/ vocals. When someone raises their voice and shouts there's a "static" sounding crackle at the high part of their voice.

I was thinking I was just being too sensitive and the static crackle was just in the source materials (microphones or something), but you and the other post (which sounds EXACTLY like my problem) have me thinking.

I know it's not my speakers, because I had the same problem w/ my last set of speakers (paradigm studio series) and my new set (VMPS RM-40s).

I do however have my ICBM sitting on top of my 950 and my Denon DVD player (which gets pretty hot) on the shelf underneath.

[This message has been edited by jgubman (edited February 27, 2004).]

The static can be heard even from hi-end product like Red Rose Music’s $7k amp paired with their $8k speaker. It came from improperly located IC cables coming out of CD player. Besides the wire being inadequately shielded, it was running parallel with the power cord. In about half hour into auditioning, the static sound started. The store manager said the power cord and IC cables should run perpendicular to each other. Better yet, keep them as far away from each other as possible (remember soundhoud’s advice?). I’m not sure why they didn’t set it up that way to begin with but that’s in a separate thread (Favorite Demo).

See if this is helps with yours.

Yeah, I'll take a look, I definately don't have my power cables as isolated from my ICs as I'd like them to be. Unfortunately, all my equipment is in a Salamander S40 rack and the cables make the typical "rats nest" in the back. I've tried to isolate the power cords from the analog ICs from the video ICs from the digital ICs, but it's just about impossible...

Also, the "static" or "crackle" I hear on high pitched vocals isn't a constant. It comes and goes, but is almost always repeatable.

I do keep the preamp -> amp IC cables (~20 foot run) isolated by running them through foam pipe insulation.

I'm thinking about putting all the power cords in some kind of plastic tubing to further distance them from the other ICs.

Dunno, I took the ICBM off the 950 last night and moved it to a different shelf. I also moved the DVD player to the bottom of the rack and put a tivo (always runs cold to the touch) on the shelf directly under the 950. I only listened to a minute after that, but *thought* I noticed a big improvement. Of course it was probably just psychological, since I'd spent 30 minutes rearranging things...

jgubman: I'm having the exact same static problem, but I don't have a 950. I use Outlaw 200s for amps, and a Denon 4800 for a preamp. I have switched out just about every component in my system and the static will not go away. I've tried different amps, cables, speakers, DVD players (and LD players). The "best" demonstration of this is to play the chapter in T2 when John runs into the employee corridor of the mall, and the janitor yells at him: "Hey! You're not allowed in here". The "Hey!" is badly distorted.

I really haven't experienced this static with my set-up, but from an audio engineering point of view your descriptions sound like something is overloading the system at some point. Since the above post pointed out the issue in a system without a 950, it's possible the distortion exists on the software side of the equation, i.e. your cds and/or your dvds. It's also possible to assume that since these system are possible upgrades to your previous sound systems, you're now hearing these instances of distortion for the first time. This is just my opinion upon reading the above posts. If your problem is traceable to a hardware solution, then please ignore.

One more thing, I think a lot of these occurences of distortion on CDs and DVDs are completely related to the trend of having the highest possible level on their release. If this continues, I think there will be more times where people experience these problems. Again, just my 2 cents on the state of the music and film industry.

bjs10,

yep great example. I just threw T2 in and found that chapter (what an annoying menu that disc has. If anyone else cares, it's at chapter 19, ~31 minutes into the film on the special edition).

That's EXACTLY the type of distortion, static, whatever that drives me crazy... I guess I can just tell that inner voice that always questions if it's on the source material or something in my setup to just shut up now. It's really disturbing how many DVDs exhibit this distortion. I do notice it on CDs from time-to-time, but I notice it all the time w/ DVDs. Drives me nuts, especially since there are things like THX certification which is supposed to be a "watchdog" and a "standard" for dvd audio/video????

Anyways, I guess I feel a little better knowing not to keep swapping out cables, rearranging my system, buying power conditioners. If the distortion is in the disc, there's nothing I can do about it (sadly)...


And Jason, yes you're correct. With my old paradigm (and even older polk before that) speakers, I just heard a hint of the distortion, not enough to ever really bother me. It's when I switched to the ultra-resolving VMPS planar ribbon speakers that the distortion really started to jar my nerves.

The decoding chips that process the Dolby Digital and DTS bitstreams can become overloaded when too many channels are all reproducing maximum levels. This will sound like clipping. Also the DSP chips and the associated analog circuits are subject to overload.

Soundhound, thanks for the reply. So you think this distortion is overloading of the processors, huh?

Is there anything that can be done to relieve this overloading? Is this the reason that some of the newer, really expensive preamps (I'm thinking of the Tag bp192) have two processors?

I know many people who author DVDs at the major studios, and they are not they type of people who would let an audible clipping situation go by without fixing it. The succeptability of a preamp or receiver to overload is a design consideration that has nothing to do with the cost of the equipment - it's just a bad design choice made by the equipment's designer. Unfortunately, if this is the source of the overload, there is nothing you can do about it.

More DSP processing may or may not cure a problem like this - it has more to do with design decisions than the number of DSPs.

I've never heard clipping from my 950 for what it's worth.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited February 29, 2004).]

The funny thing is, I get that static crackle whether in DD, DTS, Pro Logic, stereo, whatever. I have the LD of T2 as well and it does the exact same thing. I guess it could just be the movie, but if so, then why hasn't everyone noticed it?

I wonder what it could be then. I also have trouble believing that so many recording engineers would let this kind of distortion go through on so many discs.

Is this a kind of problem that I should contact Outlaw about directly and try a replacement unit? Could it be a problem w/ the DSP chip caused by either the replacement chip or the install I did when I installed the DTS-fix EPROM chip?

It very likely is something in your system that is overloading. The symptoms are classic of a system related problem. I can't guess where it would be coming from in your system, but I bet this is the problem.

Which edition of "T2" are you guys watching? Two reasons for this question:

1) I wanna try this chapter out on my system.

2) There have been numerous, at least 3, Region 1 releases of "T2" and I remember reading about "improvements in audio" on the later releases.

This also leads to my next question. Is this the only disc this happens with or can you name another instance of this static? Now you guys have got me thinking...

I was watching the special edition, the one inside the metal sleve (definately not the new T2 - extreme). I know there've been at least 3 issues of T2.. Anyway on the special edition it's at chapter 19 about ~31 minutes into the special edition (not the theatrical edition).

Please do report back if you hear it.

Another instance of the static distortion that I can think of off the top of my head is on the Godfather DVD. On Godfather 1 (sorry don't knwo the chapter or time) the scene where Robert Duvall has dinner w/ the hollywood mogul who won't give the frank sinatra-clone character has some bad distortion. They're having dinner and discussing giving a role to the singer and the mogul stands up and shouts something like "I'll never give him that role, and I'll tell you why". That whole phrase has some distortion to it.

Please check that out also, if you have the disc.

I'm about 90% positive that this distortion is just on the discs and there's nothing we can do about it...

That could simply be distortion in the original dialog recording which is quite common especially with older films that used magnetic tape as the original recording medium.

All versions of T2 I've watched have it. I had also noticed several scenes in Godfather that had the static problem. Maybe it is just the films.

I just played T-2 and the Godfather DVDs - the "static" is plain 'ol clipping of the original sound elements. There's nothing the consumer can do about that. The film's makers either didn't catch the distortion or were unable (or unwilling) to schedule an ADR session to loop the dialog.

Where does this clipping occur?
T2 sounds fine on my system.
(I don't have the Godfather DVD)

Perhaps I missed it.

According to jgubman, "on the special edition it's at chapter 19 about ~31 minutes into the special edition (not the theatrical edition)." Can't say that I noticed it either, but it's been a while since I watched it.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

At this point, would 950 still be the culprit or should it be removed form the list?

I don't have a 950, so it's pretty safe to say it's not it. Or maybe it's not _just_ the 950. Maybe it has something to do with the DACs, which would be common to several pre-pros/receivers.

I think the blatently bad cases of the T2 and Godfather DVDs are definately NOT the 950.

I'm still not willing to let the 950 off the hook though. There's a much subtler form of this static that I still get. I was watching a particularly bad movie last night ("Nothing to lose"), and I heard this "static" again. This form of static isn't the clipping/distortion like on the T2 disc (although that distortion annoys me even more and is probably what started me on this witch hunt), but is rather like an added "raspiness" to voices. Remembering sfield's earlier post, I switched from digital (coaxial 1) to 6-channel analog and then back to digital, and the raspiness was gone (although now my wife had a raspiness in her voice telling me to quit changing the **** audio...).

I watched the rest of the movie sans raspiness and went back to earlier chapters that I remembered it in and they were clear.

I really wish I could describe what I'm hearing better. It's kind of like there's a "snow" or "white noise" around the vocal tracks. It's there no matter what mode I'm in (2.0, analog bypass, 6 channel bypass, 5.1, etc) and is in the mains if I switch from surround to 2-channel. It's noticeable, but not overbearing, just kinda there. It's almost like a really bad sibilance problem...

Switching to 6-channel bypass and then back to digital DEFINATELY cleared it up though. I wonder what doing that could've done. I'll keep my eye on this solution.