Hi. Have a 950/770 and love it for movies. Recently added a Denon 5900 DVD univerasal player, and tried it tonight for DVD-A and SACD. I am using the digital out on the Denon and it is connected to one of the optical inputs on the 950 for movies. Bass with DVD movies is terrific. On the SACD and DVD-A, the bass was anemic throug the sub. The Denon has two settings for the sub out - one is SUBWOOFER ENHANCE ON and the other is SUBWOOFER ENHANCE OFF. I was running it off. I was also running the 950 at 0 db trim for the sub. At this setting, movies are great, and the sub (Mirage BPS 400) was tight and punchy. I changed the settings so that the Denon is now at SUBWOOFER ENHANCE ON and the 950 trim fo rthe sub is at 10db. I am getting a signal from the sub on DVD audio now. However, on movies, the sub output is kindo of boomy/rumbling and loud. I don't know if this makes any sense or not. With my old receiver (A Denon 5800), the sub output seemed very similar on either DVD-A, SACD or DVD movies. The sub has three inputs - one for "L", one for "R" and the other for "LFE." I have always used the LFE input. I tried the other inputs last night just for grins and the result was the same.

Perhaps I have gremlins? Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

Mike

From your subject line, you're using the 5.1 analog input on the 950, which is good. Since you also have listened to DVD-A and SACD in the past, I assume that you are familiar with the discs you were listening and what you expected from them (since multichannel music is often mixed differently from movies as far as the .1 channel is concerned). What do you have the analog bass management switch set to on the 950's 5.1 analog input, and how is the bass management on the 5900 set up? Those two may be combining to mess you up somehow.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

If the 5900's Bass Management (BM) is the same as the 2900's (I think it is), then I recommend getting a DVD-A calibration disc such as the one from Chesky. You can use this disc to calibrate both the digital (Dolby and DTS) and analog (DVD-A and SACD) connections.

When using the test tones in the Denon, I had to attenuate the five main speakers about 6 to 8 dB in order to get them to match the subwoofer. You can use the BM in the Denon or the switch on the back of the Outlaw, but don't use both. Also, make sure that when you switch to the 6CH Direct on the Outlaw, that you switch from something other than a stereo source. Otherwise, you won't get all the channels.

Keep in mind that the Denon's BM and speaker settings are not used if you are watching movies through the digital audio output. You should be able to dial in good movie sound by using only the Outlaw's BM and channel settings. You should not have to change the Outlaw's settings to get bass out of the 6CH Direct. That is all in the Denon.

[This message has been edited by DollarBill (edited February 10, 2004).]

MGDURAND:First, your set up should have the analog bass management switch on the back of the 950 set to on, and all speakers set to small for bass management (unless you have full-range speakers in all channels, which I doubt). Next, in the dvd player's bass management, you should set all speakers to LARGE and subwoofer to ON. Then get and use the Chesky disc as mentioned above with a Radio Shack sound level meter. These two items are invaluable to set up a total surround sytem properly.
One other thing to mention. The two original Pioneer Universal players (47,45) have a problem with an attenuated subwoofer output, and you have to turn down the other 5 channels to get output equal. If the Denon is sourced on the Pioneer player (I don't know if Denons are OEM or Pioneer), that might explain your problem.

Surroundophile raises an excellent point. Denon has historically started with Panasonic chassis (no Pioneer hardware influence) and built from there, although the 5900 is likely predominantly original. The Denon 2900 did have an issue (mentioned several places, including here ) with a subwoofer output that was 10dB lower than it should be in an attempt to compensate for "hot" movie mixes. A review here indicates that there is a 10dB attenuation "toggle" on the 5900 in lieu of this permanent attenuation, which may be mgdurand's "SUB ENHANCE" setting. mgdurand - are you using the six-channel input for movie watching? I wouldn't expect the sub enhance setting to affect digital audio output, and by using the 950's processing for movies you may be able to use the Denon's sub trim controls to get a satisfactory amount of bass for DVD-A and SACD (keeping in mind that the LFE track on a DVD-A or SACD disc is likely to be less active than a movie soundtrack's LFE).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Greetings and thanks for all the help. I have found I finally have a few minutes tonight to take it easy for a minute, and will play with the system after a nice stiff drink!

Anyway, in last week's episode our hero (me) was having trouble with the Denon 5900's analog 5.1 outputs to the Outlaw 950. The sound from the sub on DVD-A and SACD was woefully inadequate. I have looked in the denon manual. and found that the BASS ENHANCER setting is not aptly named. When the setting is OFF, there is NO SOUND is produced from the subwoofer with the 5.1 analog outs! I guess by enhancing nothing you could call it an "enhancement," (a la "How do you define the word "it"? - but enough politics). Tonight, I will leave the enhancement selection to ON so I willhave analog sub output, and will try 5.1 analog with the bass management feature of the Outlaw 950 in both positions. I have done this briefly, and seem to have low sub output anyway (to the tune of having to increase the trim of the sub to +10db).

I do appreciate all the time and effort you guys are putting in, and it was one of the reasons I went with the Outlaw gear. You guys are its best salesmen.

Mike

Well, I changed a setting in the Denon called SOURCE DIRECT. The default is OFF. According to the manual, turning it on allows the output of the audio signals without adding speaker settings or channel level processing to the audio signals of DVD-A or SACD. Did so, and the sub seems ot be back. Will experiment some more (have not tried a DVD in this configuration, but I don't think this will affect digital settings. We'll see.

Tune in next week for another thrilling episode ...

Mike

Well, found an interesting thread on the Hi-Rez Highway discussion board:

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Posted by Martin , on January 12, 2004 at 07:44:04
In Reply to: Re: Denon 5900 - Source Direct or Bass Mgt posted by timm on January 12, 2004 at 06:09:58:


But, with SACD playback specifically, the LFE is suppressed by 15dB when you have source-direct set to "off". So even you have engaged the 10dB LFE boost setting, you’re still 5dBs short, compared with the "Source Direct" mode. That could account for differences you hear.
In addition, I would expect that source-direct will involve a shorter signal path (by avoiding certain processing steps) and this could (perhaps) improve the sound.

N.B. as you may know, one-bit DSD data does not take kindly to any form a post-processing — even if that is performed in the "pure DSD" domain, as is reported for the -5900’s bass management. So maybe even DSD-bass management is audibly degrading the signal slightly?

On the other hand, DVD-A’s PCM signals tend to have a much easier time with operations such as bass management when performed by a hi-bit integer DSP (two 32-bit Sharcs in the -5900).

N.B. The other thing to note about "source-direct" is that one would use it for full-range six-channel music, where you have six identical large speakers encircling you (and no sub, of course). For example, the DVD-Audio label "MDG" does precisely this with its 2+2+2 concept. e.g. center & sub channels as used for "height" information.. I would imagine there are SACDs also which have a similar configuration. I think Telarc’s 1812 is one.

>> since I definitely need the sub - source-direct kills that for two channel listening - any way around this - other than going into the menu and flipping source direct off? thanks tim. <<

I'm not sure, but I don't think so.

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It seems like I stumbled on to the correct solution to my subwoofer problem with 6 channel analog DVD-A and SACD listening. I did listen to a DVD movie last night (i.e., digital input on the 950) and all sounded superb.

Thanks again!

Mike