While Vader has supported his preference for the AVM-20 over the 950 with absolutely no supporting facts, except for that his balanced interconnect cables cost a lot of money...

1) Cost has absolutely nothing to do with performance. Even if the Anthem sounds "better" than the 950, gosh dern it, it ought to because it lists for 4x the amount the 950 does. But who wins "bang for the buck"?

2) I had the opportunity to audition a 950 with a 755 amp, and the AVM-20 with the 5 ch Anthem amp. My comments are posted elsewhere in this forum, but try as I might, with both music and movies, I could not tell a difference between them. And I wanted to! I firmly believe that you spend more money, you should get better performance. But I didn't hear it. The AVM-20 is certainly more "tweakable", but for raw 2 ch performance? No diff.

3) It has been proven, that unless a component has fully balanced operation, and not quasi-balanced as most cheaper components are, using the balanced connection can actually result in *worse* sound. Mr Vader- please dig up a reference such that you can prove that both the Anthem AVM-20 and the amp you are using it with is actually fully balanced. (For example, I just read a review of the Rotel RMB-1095. 200w/ch, weighs 70 lbs. *Not* fully balanced.)

4) I had a 950 in my system. I had absolutely no complaints with 2 ch stereo sound. But, I liked the 7.1 CES modes on the 950 so much, I went for my dream pre/pro and got a Lexicon MC-8. I have also posted this elsewhere, but I found absolutely no difference in 2 ch music stereo sound quality. The best test a multichannel preamp can undergo. And Mr Vader, I'd wager that the balanced power unit *I* have, costs more than the amplifier that you have. But that don't mean squat neither.

5) Mr Vader- Have you ever compared an AVM-20 to a 950 in your system? No? Then how can you intelligently comment on a 950 vs the AVM-20? Oh wait, I said "intelligently."


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited November 04, 2003).]

All valid points. Additionally, Let's say in a perfect world, Anthem was 4x as good as the Outlaw at 4x the price. There are still people who don't want to pay $4k for a part of their home theater, and would be perfectly happy with the Outlaw. There's no reason to bash those people or their product. The product does not pretend to be 4x as good as it is. It does not claim to have balanced output, something many "true audiophiles" do not need or want.

There's no reason to incite a flame war. VADER obviously either came here to start one for fun, has no idea what he's talking about, or came to flaunt the fact that he's spent a pantload of money on things that he feels make his system better. If that's what helps him sleep at night, let him rant. Attempting to reason with such a person is an exercise in futility. No matter how good your argument, you will still get stock replies like, "but it's ugly!"

We Outlaws don't have to take personal offense, because we can be happy in the knowledge that our prepro/amps sound 99% as good as anything out there, we have an extra $3000 to spend on DVDs and music, and 95% of us don't need/want/care about/know the difference/etc what a Lex or Anthem would give us.

-Joe

------------------
Remember the Intellivision?
http://www.gotmaille.com/nostalgia/

[This message has been edited by Nostalgia (edited November 04, 2003).]

I own a Lexicon MC-12, possibly one of the best surround processors currently in existance. When Joe asked for advice regarding what the best preamp he could get in the price range in which he was looking, I immediately directed him to the Outlaw.

No question in my mind. If I were to get a pre-amp in that price range instead of the MC-12's, I'd go with the Outlaw. It's that simple.

Jeff

So why do you wish to bring some snobbery to a forum of people who do not know each other?

You are fortunate to either afford or accept he costs of said equipment you talk of, good for you. I am an audiophile and I would if situation allows invest in ever higher end equipment, but even though I do not own the 950, I appreciate what it brings. I am a happy owner at this moment of a mid-high end Denon AV receiver. It was the best my budget at the time allowed me to afford. Had my disposable budget allowed for a 950/7100 combo etc. I would have jumped at it and known that I was getting equipment that an audiophile/videophile would appreciate.

Audiophile is not just the person who spends the most. My system has been carefully put together and lovingly set up in my listening room. I have invested appropriate amounts on speakers, cables, electronics and I bet you would be highly impressed in the sound of what I have, until you saw the equipment and your snobbery would come through.

Being and audio/videophile is about a lover for the hobby and a chase to constantly improve ones system from setup and maintanence to new equipment. I have been an audioiphile since I was a teen spending much of my then entry level wages on the best equipment I could afford at the time.

You are in a situation that may allow you to invest in or go into more debt over with higher priced ( not always better though ) equipment. There is not a person here ( I dare say ) who would not be happy for you, but to come here and slag equipment that you are probably not so aware of is not fair nor noble in attitude.

In ending, the Outlaws have successfully brought in a good mix of quality vs price and on products that would make the 95 percentile happy.

No, it's obvious that you missed my point. One is an audiophile who is into maximizing the potential of their own systems along with their personal journey within this hobby/lifestyle. The amount of money one may spend has ZERO indication as to being an audio/videophile. Afterall Bang and Olfsen is in many cases even more expensive than the equipmet you talk of owning and anyone who is an audiophile will note that B&O hardly represents cutting edge audiophile quality, but rather eccentric form to their function. Your demeaning of equipment and people who own such that may be a lower price ( but again not always lower in quality ) than what you may own may represent snobbery of which means nothing on an informal internet forum where nobody really knows anyone else.

If it is your intent to bring such snobbery here, you only alienate your opinions and yourself as those who wish to talk of and share ideas and enjoyment of not just the equipment they may own but the hobby of home electronics, and of the interest to talk of the industry, will only disregard your words in the end.

Having a more expensive home audio/video system does not make you an audio/videophile let alone one in having any credible knowledge within the hobby/industry.

Showing off here by being arrogant is like a 17 year old doing burn outs in a fancy sportscar infront of people who do not know him nor really care of him. However if it gives you your "shits and giggles" then more power to you.

I'm sure others here will stick to the higher road and the pleasure of talking and sharing experiences in electronics and its industry.

I’m sure Vader’s a nice guy after all he did state in a prior movie
I want them [Outlaws] alive. No disintegration’s. - Darth V
(so boys don’t go disintegrating with your tempers please)

Vader re: “Anthem rules”
Don't get technical with me! -C3PO

Princess Lena says the dark side is doomed. Vader can spare no expense for his galacticly advanced interconnects but the Death Star still will end as bits of cosmic dust.

The Outlaws who shop at Outlaw for interconnects or others here (always Outlaws to the core) have nefarious connections with high quality raw material providers such as the odd rogue ‘Canare” rep in various back water bars around the galaxy.

Emperor approved boutique products come in handy if you need something to tie up Jabba sized overspenders to curtail their greedy appetites for badge recognition gluttony and excess.

The Millenium Falcon always has Outlaws on board, and while She may not look like much, she's got it where it counts, kid - Han S

and by the by Aren't you a little short to be a stormtrooper? - Princess Leia


PS. Back on topic,
I am one who can ‘read’ my display on the 950 from across the room (and my eyes are tired tired from paperwork every day). I don’t use my OSD (and don’t want to). But can easily tweak every command I need to via the 950 display with ease.
I would prefer distance settings in more than 3 increments, (Fronts, center, backs) but only to play with, - don’t know if that would make any difference whatsoever in my acoustic conditions.
The remote is as good as any that has come bundled with a product I’ve purchased, which means we shake hands and declare a truce after a few weeks.

In other words, Uhhhhh.....had a slight weapons malfunction. But.....fine..... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine......How are you? –Han S

The early few bugs which were very minor in comparison to some manuf glitches I saw in products far more expensive, - were addressed by Outlaw. The rest are prospective or current purchasers’ personal preference list for feature list/options (which no two owners would ever agree on as far as tradeoffs of this-for-that for cost value).

Product: highly recommended.

Sorry guys - for the limp attempt at a Space Oddesy, obviously both Vader and I get our jollies in weird ways. Got out tonight for girls on town. Just having fun.
Either I'm going to kill her or I'm beginning to like her. –Han S

The Anthem is a nice piece, no question about it. Still, it's not the end-all, be-all. For instance, where are the 5.1 inputs for DVD-A/SACD? The Outlaw's got a set...

Jeff

I used to have a coat hanger for TV reception. I disconnected it about 6 months ago. Better things to do with my time.

How crass is that?

If P.T. Barnum were alive today, he'd probably be selling interconnects. (one of my favorite lines)

My cousin is a concert violinist who has played the instrument amazingly well for over 40 years. He knows what a violin sounds like.

Using source material he is familiar with (including some with him playing on the recording) he thought my system to be very accurate.

He's not the kind of guy who will spare your feelings when it comes to music reproduction.

He didn't ask how much it cost.

Maybe he would have thought it more accurate with an Anthem pre and mega-coin XLRs.

Guess I'll never know.

Outlaw should offer a version of the 950 that has a nice, thick piece of CNC machined Mic-6 aluminum on the front and balanced I/O on the back and sell it for $4K.

After all, we all know it would sound measurably better that way.

I'm sure Vader has a lot of friends who would just push and shove their way to the front of the order line, then tape the receipt to the front of the rack.

BoB,

You rock!

Jeff

Use a favorable acoustic environment with accurate and fine sounding speakers with a 950 based system, vs. an Anthem based system with esoteric cabling, and start listening for differences.
There is a baseline for doing some cost/performance comparisons. See how much money you need to 'pump in' to really hear a difference of any significance.