Hello,

I want to inquire with all of you about your experiences with ICs using Silver, Copper, etc. What do you prefer and why? Have you used IC's with the Bullett plugs ?

Liz

I have used a variety of ICs, including OFC copper, silver coated OFC and solid core silver. Silver IC is usually very, very expensive. But if you've got a lot of money invested in a high resolution / revealing system, it's not the crazy investment some people make it out to be and can really take things to the next level.

DH Labs, Homegrown Audio, Cat Cables and Moon Audio are sources for silver ICs that are not priced in the stratosphere. You can also pick up something used on Audiogon.

Ideally, it would be great if you can borrow a pair to try in your system you could see how you like them and if you think they're worth the investment.

As a general rule, I have used silver ICs only on critical listening sources (like CD and phono). The only silver interconnect I have first-hand experience with is Van den Hul silver. I bought them for the interface box of my Sota Sapphire turntable years ago and they were amazing. Ultra revealing without being harsh and bright, added a tremendous amount of air and space around instruments, and really opened up the soundstage.

More recently, I have used the silver coated products from DH Labs that I have described elsewhere on this forum.

Eventually, I plan on upgrading a couple interconnects to silver as I really like the sound you get from them.

As to bullet plugs, I have not used them. I understand Eichmann makes bullet plugs that are well regarded. Apart from that, I have tried/owned some of the high end connectors from WBT and DH Labs with success.

Hi Videodrome,

Thanks for the feedback. I am thinking of using PCA for multichannel and trying the
"Signal Cable " Silver Resolution IC for the two channel off the Denon 3930CI.

I want to try a pair of silver ICs and I have 30 days on that. I know silver can be harsh yet this one is designed to be smooth and does not break the back. It uses rhe Bullett RCA.

Call me something between a pragmatist and a wet blanket, but one doesn’t really need to go much further in technical capabilities and price than interconnects based on Belden 1694a cable and Canare RCA-type connectors, unless one feels the need for ‘locking/gripping’ connectors. Even going that far may exceed the needs of some.

The engineer in me says that if installing new cable truly results in changes like “added a tremendous amount of air and space around instruments, and really opened up the soundstage,” then either the previous IC’s, the new IC’s or both were affecting the sound in ways they shouldn’t be, and/or the contact points between the cables and the equipment needed attention such that improved contact restored proper signal separation and/or eliminated improper impedance.

I do recommend that all cable connections that rely on solely on friction (interconnects, speaker cable) for proper electrical contact be checked one to three times yearly. The use of decent cable strain relief may help. I know some people who have converted some of their gear to BNC-type connectors because they thought they couldn’t rely on the RCA-type connectors over the long term without preventative maintenance. There are other ‘locking/gripping type’ connectors for IC’s and speaker cable that also reduce the need for recurring attention.

(Videodrome: no slight or criticism of your assessment is intended in my use of your phrase. My post is meant to be an expression of my opinion regarding cables and connection maintenance, not about my fellow Outlaws. I appreciate your understanding.)

Common sense interjection: the cable used by the engineers in capturing, recording and mastering was likely bare, well insulated copper (not oxygen-free or other specially ‘enhanced/aligned’ type) or silver-tinned copper. Attempts to exceed the original engineers’ cable types is, IMHO, too great a ‘reach’ in the audio playback stage of the total process.

No slight taken.

However, your comments presume a lot and fall into the same traps I see with many people who have engineering / technical backgrounds: Namely, there is a presumption that audible differences in interconnects (1) either do not exist or are minimal; and (2) that looking at the cable solely from the construction / materials standpoint alone is somehow indicative of how it will sound in your system.

Regarding item #1, the differences I have heard between the various cables I have tried in my system had nothing to do with a flaw in the cable, but the intrinsic differences between the cables and how they sounded in my system. And like audio components, how a cable specs' out on paper has little if anything to do with how it ultimately sounds in your system.

I respect your engineering background and the depth of knowledge that brings to the table in forums such as this. However, I do not think that it can somehow negate 20+ years of empirical evidence and real world listening experiences that I, and thousands and thousands of hifi enthusiasts, have had regarding audible differences between interconnects, silver or otherwise. We're not talking about Clever Little Clocks here, we're talking about hosts of manufacturers who have decades of product development crafting hundreds of iterations of cables based on various metals, dialectrics, capacitance levels, braiding, shielding, etc. and an equally well established group of pro reviewers, hobbyists, audio designers, etc. who have listened to and used products and connectors outside the design and construction realm of Belden 1694a. Look at a cross section of high end products out there and you're going to see silver litz wiring, tiffany/WBT connectors and other components used across the board. Do you think these products would be used so extensively if they sounded no different than stuff they could pick up at Radio Shack?

Regarding item #2, we used to run into this all the time at the store 20 years ago. A customer would come in with a magazine that focused on how products compared on paper not actual listening tests (i.e. Consumer Reports). Usually, there weren’t huge differences when comparing equipment in this manner and the usual pronouncement was just get a product that has these minimum spec’s and you’ll be happy, because anything beyond that doesn’t sound any different. Basically, this was total baloney. Indeed, some of our best sounding components fared worse on paper compared to our cheaper lines. A tube amp is going to spec’ out worse in some parameters than a budget receiver. But the tube amp sounded a hell of a lot better. How does how well a product images show up on paper? How does that great liquid midrange that you get with vacuum tubes compare with a solid state amp on a bench test? How can you technically measure how much more natural a human voice sounds, how the body of a violin resonates or how well notes decay on my new McCormack amp compared to my old Adcoms? Fact is you can’t, so you listen and see for yourself. Do you think MKTheater’s excellent review of the 990 vs. the Meridian would have meant anything if he and his audio buddies didn’t sit down and do a shoot out of the two units? Of course not.

My advice to Lizard King is don’t get caught up in paper / technical comparisons as they will tell you little if anything about how the product will sound in your system. Instead, do what most audio enthusiasts, audio designers, and reviewers have done for years: try it yourself in your system and let his ears be the judge.

Liz: Two more things, if you decide to give the Signal Cable silvers a try:

First, give them the benefit of some burn in time before you critically evaluate them. Typical burn in time for cables is around 50-100 hours. Some companies have cable cookers they use before they send the products out; not sure about Signal Cable, but they may have some info./guidelines on their web site.

Second, you seem to have a keen interest in people's first-hand experiences with various cables. Keep up the sleuthing! A little homework up front can help narrow the product field a bit before you buy/try something.

With that in mind, I would encourage you to run a query for some of the products you have an interest in at the Cable Asylum at www.audioasylum.com. For non-Outlaw-related products, that is usually my first stop if I'm looking for user opinions on audio gear.

While I can understand that you believe there is more to the sonic characteristics of cable than the engineering belies, it's important to note this: auydio cabling does not permanently change chemically or mechanically with 50-100 hours of use, making the concept of burn-in a bit of a stretch.

Comparing cabling to components of 20 years ago is an apples to oranges comparison: cables are solid state electronics, while the component issues you mention involve tubes, components that change with use by design. If cabling were to act the same way, then (like tube equipemnt) performance would deteriorate over time and parts need replacing in order to continue fuctioning.

It should also be noted that Consumer Reports, while not the audiophile reference, has always relied on real-world listening tests of all audio equipment reviewed. These results are combined with feature comparisons to develop their overall scoring matrix.

I do not intend this as an arguement, but I thought it important to examine the flip side of the coin.

Hi VD,

Thanks so much. I know that I will have to let them burn in for 50 Hours, I placed the order and expect them next week. I have a 1070 coming with the PCA IC's and I can compare the two side by side.

Liz,

I took Videodrome's advice and checked out this link. It appears that you have two camps diametrically opposed... either for or against. It doesn't seem that anybody is in the middle regarding the bullet plugs. Please read all of the responses. Please follow up with your opinion once you receive the cables.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/127999.html

No problem, LK. Enjoy the listening test. That's part of the fun of this hobby!

My recommendation is, once you're ready to do the shootout, start with a few cuts from some of your favorite CDs (vocals are always good for listening tests) in 2 channel bypass and play them over one of interconnects in succcession before switching out. One trap you can fall into is to keep swapping the IC's out repeatedly between each song. You're better off settling in with the flavor of one interonnect after a stretch of music samples, then switching to the other.

After you switch out, start with the cut you heard last on the previous interconnect and work your way back. Invariably, once you make the switch you're ears/brain are going to say either: "What's missing?" or "Gee, everything really opened up."

Another test: While it's good to use recordings you know are very high quality, also throw in a CD you know to be less than stellar and/or on the bright side just to see how the cable either improves or exacerbates the problems with the recording.

Lastly, be sure to report back your results!

you got it VD. I hopefully will have the sytem up and running next week.

Outlaw Audio 1070
Denon FVD 3930CI
Alon 2 Mk2 loudspeakers
HSU VTF-2 Mk2 sub
Ascend 340C (classic) center
M-Audio Revolution 7.1 sound card from PC into the 1070 via a 35 foot digital coax

Future: PS2 hooked in via Outlaw PDO
Ascend HTM-200 Rears
Explorer 4250HD tuner

My comparison with components to cables from the same timeframe was to highlight that you couldn't gauge how things sounded until you auditioned at home and that the many nuances that seperated the sonic qualities of gear were not captured in the specs' themselves.

As to cable burn-in, I'd have to see if I can find some technical basis for how that works. All I can relate is from my own and others' personal experiences, but I've noticed that doesn't seem to resonante with many people around here. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I do know many of the cable manufacturers advise a break in period and there are several so called "cable cookers" out there that consumers and manufacturers can and do use to expedite the process.

Lastly, if CR's were based on listening tests, I stand corrected. I can only tell you that the folks that walked in with one of those mags' tucked under their arm were challneging customers. Once they made up their mind on a product that had one of those red dots next to it, they weren't receptive to trying anything else.

I hear you Videodrome. I know that all silver IC's can be harsh and too revealing. I will compare the Signal Cable Silver resolution (has Bullet RCA) with the Outlaw PCA (locking RCA) for the stereo outputs from the Denon to the 1070. I will have to let the Silver cables butn in for no less than 50 hours befor I can beging to judge them. Should they be fine, I will hear more air and the instruments with be in their own sound space.

Including those things you mentioned, you may hear a variety of improvements: On vocals, the head of the person may appear smaller and instruments more precisely placed in the soundstage as things tighten up. You may also get more front-to-back depth. Lastly, things may appear less veiled. You'll know what I mean if and when you hear this, because it's like someone removed a thin gauze blanket off the top of the music.

Lastly, though silver [i]can[i/] sound bright, it doesn't always, depending upon how it works with your system. If your components are already on the harsh/bright side, it can exacerbate the problem. But in many cases, it just extends the highs in a smoother way. So paradoxically, you can get more extension on the top end, but without the brittle edges.

That very things happended when I upgraded my Monster M1 speaker cables to the DH Labs T-14 (the T-14s are sliver coated OFC). The M1s had a reputation of being rolled off, which they were, but they also had a glare in the upper-midrange that disappeared with the T-14s.

The other phenomenon that has happened since upgrading my cables is that a few recordings I thought were bright or harsh really weren't, they just sounded that way because of the glare problem with the older Monster product. That's one of the reasons why it's interesting to see what happens when you throw in a CD you've found fatiguing to listen to.

You've got quality speakers, so I think the tools are there to reveal one way or another what's going on between the cables. I've good things about the Alons. How do you like the II's? The only ones I've read about are the Lil' Rascals, which seem to have a cult following.

VD,

I will let you know. I am hoping to get two channel, plus sub working next week. A buddy is helping me build shelves into the wall.

I thought I would quickly add some experience I've recently been through. I have purchased .5 meter versions of some different cables and listened, then sent them off to a colleague for him to do the same.

I had him report back his experiences without telling him mine, so as to not as little influence as possible. A couple of months passed between my tests and his. We tested a solid silver cable made by CatCables (SilverCats with Rhodium RCAs), a Copper cable also by Cat (BlueTigers with Gold RCAs), and a set of PCAs. I also tested some Monster 350i, and he tried some Hosa (cheap pro cable), and some ixos cable.

Quick and dirty, we both preferred the silver Cat cables the best. Personally I thought the difference between them and the copper Cat cables were extremely subtle, so much though that I easily could have been making it up. In my colleagues opinion the worst was the ixos, which isn't surprising as it was dirt cheap and questionable to start with. We also both agreed (and I'm prepared to get some angry responses to this) that the Outlaws were on the bottom of the list as well. For me the Outlaws also did worse than the Monster, which are also double shielded, but they were pretty close overall.

Why did we have these results? Our first guess, and we have done no further testing thus far, is that all the cables we liked the least are fully shielded, and in the case of the Outlaws, double shielded.

Our favorite, the Silvercats are not shielded, I'm not sure about the copper Cats, but if they are shielded it is not fully shielded (just copper strand, not braided, etc). Very likely we prefer the non-shielded cable due to the difference in capacitance affects.

Obviously if either of us tested in areas with significant RF issues that may have changed our opinions!

Personally I like the build quality, look, and service I have received from Cat so far. After getting the test samples I was impressed enough from the build/look that I ordered several of their cables to redo much of my system when I installed my 1070. If I needed to get more analog connects, I would probably go with the BlueTiger series (their cheapest copper, and what we tested), unless I magically had a huge pile of extra cash to go silver, then it would be the Silvercats.

For those looking into bias, I really, really, wanted the PCAs to come out on top, as they are 1/2 the cost of the Cats, and significantly less cost than the SilverCats.

These are just my experiences, opinions, and guesses. So please take with a grain of salt, and understand that different people hear different things.

We also decided that depending on what equipment you have Silver may be a waste as some equipment just isn't putting out a signal nice enough for Silver to even make any difference, and in some other equipment it brings out harshness, that even in small amounts, can be unpleasant.

For those curious about that, yes I find the 1070 to be deserving, if you can justify the cost.

The Silver Resolution IC's have arrived along with the subwoofer cable, both with Eichman bullet RCA's. I am hopeful to get the fronts and sub up on Friday afternoon/evening.

More to come.....

We'll be looking forward to the full report!

Similarly, I enjoyed reading Shawn Parr's comments about his A/B comparisons between cables. I'm glad to see some first-hand reports from the field beginning to crop up on this thread.

Hello,

I am stil breaking in the Silver Resolution ICs with the bullet RCA plugs. I had to use a hair dryer on the HOT setting to heat up the end to get the plugs on the components.

My Denon 3930CI (see my posting the 1070 Forum) sounds like crap when using the CD input on the 1070. After speaking with Steve, I change the inputs to the 7.1 DVDm placed the toggle switch all the way up, hid DVD on the remote then the 7.1 button.

Just a change as simple as that has made world of diffence so far.

More to come.

Liz

Wow. I've never heard of connectors being so difficult to get on. Were they Eichmanns?

Be careful when you remove them, I remember we sold a brand of ICs (Distech, I believe) that fit so snugly, some people ripped the metal sheathing off the RCA inputs when they pulled them off their components. Not an issue if the RCA inputs are solid metal (like Tiffancy, etc.) but if the are metal-sheathed plastic, try rocking them a bit before pulling back.

Yes they are Eichmanns.

Where I decided it was snake oil was when the same people who claimed they could hear cable sound started to claim the same for digital signal interconnects used for things like DD.

I'll sell you some Ethernet cable that will make the web browsing experience more vibrant and life like. Might as well.

I agree. Unfortunately, after someone has dropped hundreds or thousands of dollars on exotic cabling it becomes more of a bragging rights and face saving issue. So you'll be hard pressed to get any of those folks to say "er...it didn't really make any difference."

I remember reading a few reports of some of those MIT network boxes having either nothing inside or having a simple Zobel network to make flaky amps more tolerant of potentially bizarre impedance mismatches. However, try convincing someone who dropped a few grand on a set of speaker cables that it would be fun to open the little box at the end, possibly damaging the "bling" effect. Google is your friend.

Best,