i am looking to change my speaker cables. why? the ones i have are too short, they are a pain in the butt to tighten down (bare wire), they have corroded a bit, and they are forever becoming loose in my binding posts of my speakers. so anyway, my question is what is a good place to find some good quality speaker wire at good prices. my fondness for high dollar cables is waning, so i am looking in the couple hundred dollar range for my whole ht setup. must be able to have bananas on ends, preferably dual. let me know good websites and/or good priced brands. thanks.

Tinned copper wire should be a good choice against corrosion.
Try this http://www.knukonceptz.com/productMaster.cfm?Category=Speaker%20Wire

nice spiker, i feel this urge to get copper coated by silver, and i haven't found many places that have that within a respectable price range. have you tried that stuff that they have... this is what i have seen:
http://silversonic.com/docs/index.html
http://www.cobaltcable.com/
http://signalcable.com/index.html
http://www.haveinc.com/

The DH Labs, top link there, sells their cable by the foot as well, but not much less expensive than when they terminate it. I kind of like multiple networks reconnected at the ends rather than one run of stranded wire...

I don’t know the details but I’ve heard that tin bonds with copper better than silver does. That can mean more durability. One thing is for sure, tin coating would be cheaper than silver coating. If the protection is about the same with both materials, I know which one I’ll choose.

Home Despot sells 12 gauge oxygen-free speaker wire by the metre (probably by the foot or yard south of the 49th). I've used it exclusively in my main theatre for over a year. The only caveats are that i) it's pretty "stiff" stuff so running it in tight places / racks can be a pain and ii) that gauge of wire is just big enough to make it too big to fit into cheap "spring clip" speaker wire connectors on some amps / speakers. (In my case on NAD 2150 amps). In those cases end connectors of some type (rather than bare wire) come in handy.

Will you notice a difference in how they "sound" over anything else? I don't. Which is a good thing since to me all speaker wire sounds the same (ie. nothing added and nothing lost.)

Jeff Mackwood

i am torn between the philosophy of "engineered" wire and normal rope style wire. another thorn in my side is knowing that i can get monster cable for a huge discount. i have some 12gauge ofc original monster right now, and i am not dissatified with it, but i recently upgraded and noticed again that every binding post where i had the bare wire inserted was loose. plus, my amp is practically impossible to thread a low guage wire into seeing as they are so closely spaced apart. if you can squeeze it all in, then tightening is a pain. i end up having to move some of my speakers because my ht unfortunately cohabitates with our bar, so i am looking for pre-terminated (soldered) connections rather than bare wire that i must terminate. not that i am opposed to self-terminated if the cost is right, but typically buying the wire seperately and the connectors seperately and doing it yourself only saves a little money. i guess a little money on each termination would add up though.
i used to be more into wiring, but reality struck me and i thought why would i EVEN CONSIDER wiring which outcosts some of my components... most of my stuff is high end, while not being elitist, but most of all it is good and was a good price for me to get. that is what i want in wire, good and a good price. i know why there are ten-thousand speaker wire companies and that's because the profit is enormous. anyway, being an engineer i like to be able to compare different products based on specs/features and make an informed choice, with speaker wire there is hardly any comparison that relates to perceived quality.

[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited April 29, 2004).]

ALL wire is "engineered" for it's intended current carrying needs and bandwidth needs. I would really trust the huge research and development facilities at a company like Belden over a small specialized cable company who almost certainly doesn't manufacture their own wire.

yeah i agree. i haven't found too much stuff on belden, but i did find some appealing prices for canare stuff. maybe i liked the design of the canare more, so many websites visited i forget now. if monster cable, audioquest, nordost, etc. were all junk then it seems like they would be out of business by now, so there is some validity to their products as well. my thought was that a lot of these companies ARE out sourcing their wire production so going with a small little outfit would save me a lot of money and get the same stuff as the big boys. i mean if it is all coming from the same source, then the lowest price is best. the high-end names have to charge more to compensate for the more that they spend on other stuff.

Take a look at this stuff. I have a pair of their Prism 2+2 speaker cable terminated on the speaker ends w/gold bananas and left bare into my 1050 (4-14ga. strands combined into two). www.taralabs.com
They have a dealer locator on the site. I paid $3.00/FT.+ bananas - (2) 8' cables cost me around $75! Great bang4thebuck!

I recently helped someone do a quick install of a moderately inexpensive Onkyo 6.1 system in their living room. A minor upgrade suggestion was the speaker wire. Besides having 12 gauge stranded speaker wire by the foot, or meter/metre as Jeff points out, some home improvement supply stores also had 250-foot rolls of the same stuff at a significant savings over the manually measured segment method. If you’re installing in an average living room, but you have to run cable the long way around because you can’t use the most direct route from amplifier to speakers, running a 6 or 7 speaker set-up will probably use up 150 to 200 feet of cable. Do the math before you buy. You might come out ahead and you could end up saving another trip to the store for more if your initial length needed estimates were off a bit.

It will take a little converting on my part for you American Outlaws, but I just called my local Canadian Home Despot and they are selling that 12 gauge that I mentionned for $1.46 Cdn/m which is ~$0.33 US/ft.

I recently purchased a bunch of gold plated Acoustic Research "pin" style speaker connectors for $9.99 Cdn ($07.30 US) for a pack of four connectors from Jest Buy. Bananas were about the same price. The AR pin connectors are a perfect size for the 12 gauge wire - and worked beautifully with all of my speakers (which are not banana-friendly) and those amps of mine (that are not as well). So for comparison, two sets of 8' cables would cost $19.88 US - taxes not included. (Fellow Canucks know the significance of that!)

I also checked and found out that Despot sells 150m rolls for $199 Cdn - which works out to just under $0.30 US/ft. Not a big savings.

They may not look the same as your fancy Dan brands of bootique cables, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that you won't hear a difference between the two.

Jeff Mackwood

Canare is a favorite of mine, and they make excellent products. Their wires and connectors are used professionally and they are made to high quality standards.

The problem I have with smaller cable compainies (even Monster) is that their products are usually manufactured in countries like China and there is not the demanding quality control that is afforded cables intended for professional applications. These cables are, after all, intended for less demanding consumer applications where buyers are less likely to know the differences between high and lesser quality construction (and looks don't tell the whole story). The professional market would not put up with a cable that does not make the grade in quality or performance.

My speaker wires are a combination of Belden 10 gauge (tinned conductors) and Gepco 12 gauge mulit-conductor.

this site is cheap as anything:
http://www.gigcables.com/

Jeff, I guess the pricing structure there is a bit different than here. The cost for 250’ / 76m rolls here was less per unit than the 150m rolls you mention, but the measure-and-cut costs here were higher than you mention there. Perhaps the average works out about the same with a larger gap between the price points here. The difference may be in where the bean counters think the labor costs of handling the wire occur and how the costs should be recouped. Or it’s a marketing strategy. Where Jeff lives, the closer price points make it seem more “fair” to the person that doesn’t need 150m of cable. Where I live the thought may be “we’ll sell more cable if the roll appears to be a bargain.”

May I suggest looking in the current issue of "The Absolute Sound"? There is a wire review/comparison with a startling conclusion. A wire sold as an extension cord by Home Depot beats out some of the more esoteric brands. TAS advises just cutting off the ends and terminating with appropriate plugs. Frankly, to my ears, I can't hear a difference in any adequate wiring. As long as the wire can handle the power, is well-built with good connectors, it's ok with me!

Jay

[This message has been edited by JMS (edited April 30, 2004).]

Thank you, JMS.

A personal opinion: The longer the copper-based cable run, the heavier the gauge. Try to keep the round-trip resistance of the wire near or below 3% of your speaker's nominal impedance. For 50’ of cable, a total of 100’ of wire, that means 14 or 12-gauge wire for an 8-ohm loudspeaker. For a longer run and/or lower impedance loudspeakers, this might mean dropping to 12 or 10-gauge wire, or doubling up on thinner gauges.

When using genuine tri- or bi-amplification, a higher frequency driver may have a higher nominal impedance allowing for a slightly lighter gauge wire to be used.

When the cable contains significant amounts of metals other than copper, the gauge needed may be lighter if the resistance of the cable is significantly lower than copper.

Again, this is a personal preference.


[This message has been edited by bestbang4thebuck (edited April 30, 2004).]

Also, solid core romex (the stuff inside your walls powering the thing you're reading this on) works... I've used it inside some speakers in my office... only downside is that it's kinda stiff

“solid core” just reminded me of this term “interstrand conduction” found in this article. http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html

I’m curious how engineer gunslingers would interpret this information.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

I think I get it but just wanted to make sure. What does that mean in easier term (for non-engineers in the saloon)?

Some things are so deep into diminishing returns it's worth very little effort to worry about it. Contrast this with the considerable effort this guy is putting out, and it's as pointless as arguing about angels dancing on pinheads.

Hey! I got to use 'pinhead' in an interconnect discussion in a non-disparaging way! Is there an award for that?

Buy good UL approved wire, of suitable gauge for the run and load, and listen to some music.

YMMV.

so i have decided to get some discounted audioquest granites or make my own. i dont understand why audioquest would use pvc insulator which corrodes copper.... i will post my plans for making my wires (which im leaning towards) once i finalize them.

I use Monster Z2's, great sound, great build, probably around $300-350, for the front three. I'm not that familiar with the research that goes on with other brands, but I like the engineering that goes into monster cables, alot more that just straight copper wire.

Specifically, what are the engineering that got in Monster Z2 that justifies $300 – 350 price tag?

In other words, what is the buyer really paying for? Is it cosmetics? Is it durability against pulling and bending? Is it higher purity of copper (99.9999 % compare to other brand’s 99.999%)? Is it the braiding pattern that gives better protection against interference than other rope type copper cables? Or, is the snake oil impregnated outer jacket that can repel moisture better than other type?

I have bought / assembled a few speaker cables recently but never spent that much money on them. So I’m wondering, is it really worth it?


[This message has been edited by Spiker (edited May 05, 2004).]

yeah, i dont know either if its worth the time, money, or trouble. i am curious though. my plan is to use solid core silver as the conductor, which i couldn't get in any cable near what i am willing to spend. i really liked some audioquest half price granites, but audioquest makes themselves seem so smart and then they use pvc insulator instead of something that doesnt corrode the copper... i do have one question. has anyone ever put an insulator "tube" over a wire, i.e. jacketed the wire with insulator. how difficult is this... all the silver wire i see that is bulk and low price needs to be insulated.

i just ordered 170ft of 20ga and 130ft 17ga solid fine silver wire from Hoover and Strong for approx. $260 total. this should be enough for my front three speakers bi-wired, considering the center is only going to need tweeter because it has built-in amp already for subs in it. i am going to use the 20ga for high and 17ga for low in a four cable grouping for each positive and negative input. so that will give me 8 20ga wires for the highs, and 8 17ga wires for the lows for each speaker, except the center which will only need 8 20s for the highs. i am giving myself two extra feet on each gauge, just in case i botch something up.
their website is http://www.hooverandstrong.com/mill/roundwire_specs.htm
i am getting ready to order some ptfe spaghetti tubing from mcmaster to use as insulation for both gauges which is running $35.60 before shipping. their site is http://www.mcmaster.com/
my thoughts were to run the 4 conductor array through a slice of wooden dowel (dowel slice every foot or so) in order to keep the wires apart from one another. wooden dowel because it is way cheaper than a ptfe dowel and easier to work with.
then im going to heatshrink tube the whole dowel slice/insulated wire assembly, so that no other wires that the speaker cables bump into will damage the array of wires inside. i think i am going to use polyolefin heatshrink, since its easier to shrink that ptfe, more flexible, and less expensive. i have to see how far apart the spacing is going to be for the wires to determine what diameter dowel and respective heat shrink, or id price it now too.
finally, i am going to terminate each 4 conductor group with AUDIOQUEST CRIMP-BFA-S
bananas at the speaker end. using the same bananas i am going to crimp the 8 wires from the positive group and 8 from negative group each into its own banana at the amp end. these are $15 for 4, which is a freaking crime, but i need crimpers and i need silver, and i couldnt find any others out there. though i will look some more.
i thought about putting some polyester type mesh on top of the heatshrink tubing to protect it from tears, etc., but i dont know how much ill be spending to get everything else, so i may not do that depending on price. so for each speaker im going to end up with 8 20ga for the highs and 8 17ga for the lows (solid fine silver). which works out to 14awg to each (positive and negative) treble input and 11awg to each low frequency input. total awg per positive and negative connection (i.e. comparison to a normal non-bi-wired cable) would be 9.5awg.
i picked 20ga because it is the first gauge to not suffer from "skin effect" which only affects treble, i picked 17ga because i wanted to stay close to 20 like the trebles, but desired a thicker cable for bass response.
i think this is going to be awesome when i get them together. 9.5awg of silver would be enough, but since it is multiple wires there is no "skin effect" or inter-strandular interference on a cable that would be just one wire of 9.5awg.
ill repost with some more specs once i decide on everything else.

Some facts on wire made of various metals, and a brief foray into “skin effect:”

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html

The page starts of with information on copper, but adds info on silver and other metals. For those not wanting to do the math for “skin effect,” there is a simple table at the very end of the page.

This information, as I thought it would, kind of blows away any skin effect concerns at normal audio frequencies. I am one, however, that made my own cables out of the heavy double-shielding on some surplus Belden coax partly out of concern for skin effect (center conductor not used). But I did it in a way that cost me only about 10% more than buying 12 gauge copper wire on a 250-foot roll, so I don’t feel that I wasted any money.

curegeorg: interesting solution to your concerns, hope you’ll let us know how it works out for you. Did you consider using flexible tubing as the central ‘core’ and for strength, over which the silver wire and heat-shrink would be placed? Also, and you’ve likely thought of it, if you run the silver wire in pretty much straight lines, when the assembly is flexed, will the conductors on the outside of a bend tend to break? Perhaps you will allow some ‘wiggle room’ in your construction to allow for bends. Maybe some short-length test construction using scrap copper strands before using the silver?

Anyway, hope it goes well. Do you have a place to post ‘construction’ pics?


[This message has been edited by bestbang4thebuck (edited May 07, 2004).]

i am not positive on anything yet, other than my wire that i chose and its insulator.
it is tough to work out the best delivery method for the wire. ideally they could dangle freely (like i have room for that). that is why i thought about drilling 4 holes into the cross-section of a dowel slice and running the insulated wire through the holes. i also thought about still using a dowel slice, but cut a piece of pipe long ways and line it with plastic wrap, insert the wire assembly into the "mold" of plastic pipe and then fill the mold with foaming insulation. the problem with this is that at every place where i have the wood to seperate the wires, there will be no foam around the perimeter, only through the core... granted i could just heatshrink over the molded tube that i created to add strength, but then i wonder if the insulation will break down over time as it gets bent, etc. 20ga and 17ga wires are pretty flexible, another reason for my choice, so i dont think they would break on bends. my concerns on bends would be the wires touching one another. only one of speakers will cause the cable to bend a lot seeing as it is so close to the amp and the other speaker is not (and i am using same length cables for both).
my other thought was to foam insulate the length of the wire (like above) using no dowel slice in the setup, but to secure the wires to some jig outside of the "mold" pipe in order to keep them spaced equally.
i think this would be best, but difficult to keep the wires apart on an 8ft run, ill have to see once i can judge the stiffness of the wire/insulator combo. the foaming insulator i speak of, i will have to test its flexibility. the idea is to have a consistent surrounding for the wire, albeit a surrounding that helps to cancel out interference from the other wires. air is the best dielectric, that is why i was gonna use the dowel slices and no insulation, but now that i consider that one tight bend i dont know....
stupid speaker wires, so many options, i guess that is why there is so much ambiguity among manufacturers.
ive heard that skin-effect is not audible, but if i can make the cable to totally take it out for the same cost, just more work then so be it. using just one solid wire would be pretty impratical for other reasons as well and MORE expensive to boot.

my web space is currently being tied up with pictures of a house to be rented out. but i could probably post them.

i found another product that would simplify the proces some. it is basically four tubes attached to one another side-by-side, i would use a 4x4 array. with positives and negatives grouped together, with respect to high and low frequencies. i have to check out the specs some more and see if my insulated wires will fit into this thing though. i was thinking of making some pieces of wood to keep the 4tubes seperated from each other or was wondering if this is overkill seeing as the wire will already be insulated twice. if i dont seperate them with the wood, the positive and negative runs could wind up touching each other at multiple points, especially to one speaker.

What’s the benefit of using silver wire?
Is it because it won’t oxidize as easily as copper?

Silver is a slightly better conductor than copper.

------------------
gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

The particular metal used doesn't make a bit of difference. The only consideration is that the resistance of the cable be low enough in relation to the impedance of the speaker.

Some of you might be shocked to know that every single connection inside your precious audio amplifiers, preamps etc. is composed of tin and lead alloy. (even so called "silver solder" that is sometimes used is only about 2% silver content)

There are much more significant things to worry about than the metal used in your wires. For instance what about that wasteful passive crossover network inside your speakers that contains inductors (with copper wire) with many, many feet of small gauge wire? Those inductors present much more resistance in-line with the speaker drivers than even the crappiest of speaker wires. This degrades the damping factor very significantly. Nobody talks about this, not the speaker manufacturers especially. Also, the actual voice coils in your speaker drivers are always either copper or aluminum.

If you don't believe me, take apart one of your speakers and look at the crossover network.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited May 10, 2004).]

I guess this means copper can do the same job that silver does at a lower cost as long as it’s slightly thicker. So, only reason why someone would choose silver wire over copper is environmental, right? gonk, I remember your input about some chemical plants having to invest on gold cables due to corrosive environment it is going in.

curegeorg, is it safe to assume that the area you live in has a condition (high humidity & salt vapor from ocean) which makes silver more suitable than copper?

The only reason silver ever entered the audio scene is marketing - it just sounds impressive.

i am using silver because i wanted to, no defense needed. having said that, my reasons why are less resistance (at its worst it is better than copper at its best, and low quality copper is significantly less), if it oxidizes it is still very conductive, i can have only one metal the entire path to the speaker, so i can compare my cables at a low price range to cables that cost like 10k, to try something different, and because its not like it is costing me more than i would have spent on some manufactured mid-range copper cables. my price range was set, so i'd be crazy not to get silver.
once my manufacturers warranty runs out, i will look at tinkering with my speaker's wiring, component's etc. because yes i do realize that the wiring inside is what it is.
i was going to do a cat5 cable, but 50hrs of braiding wasnt appealing.
i am not bashing copper, but if im gonna spend the time to make a diy project i am gonna do it so that i am proud of the product and it is unique. i am not looking to replicate, i am trying to experiment and see if there really is any validity to different metals, etc.
someone once said that the earth was flat and everyone believed that until someone found out that it wasnt; now we all believe that its round.
my interest in audio poses questions that i seek answers to, so when i have a chance to answer them, id be silly not to.

http://www.amm.com/index2.htm?/ref/conduct.HTM
shows why people choose the metals that they choose, note that drawn copper is significantly less than annealed copper and silver. no i dont live inside of the sea, so i am not worried about the elements. what fun would it be to make the same thing that i have now?

If you want some really significant improvement, why don't you just go with true active bi-amping or tri-amping and eliminate the passive crossover network entirely? Doing this also makes the cables that connect to the drivers much less of an influence.

Futzing with speaker cables, especially when there is a huge liability with the speaker's passive crossover network, is really barking up the wrong tree.

Active crossovers are a massive improvement compared to anything you can do with the passive crossover still in the speaker cabinet.

You mean near the sea? I was referring to vapor.

Since your answer is no, never mind.

"If you want some really significant improvement, why don't you just go with true active bi-amping or tri-amping and eliminate the passive crossover network entirely"

I'm not sure that bypassing or changing the passive crossovers inside the speakers would always result in improvement in sound quality. I know I read an article recently regarding the thin wiring used inside of high dollar Legacy speakers. Consumers were complaining that they spent hundreds of dollars on high quality speaker cable only to discover the inside of the speakers were lined with cheap thin wiring. The designer of the speakers replied that they had spent thousands of hours tweaking those speakers to make sure they sounded fantastic. You liked the way they sounded when you bought them, so the 20 ga. wire feeding the tweeter worked as designed. Now, my point is, most high end speaker manufacturers are putting together drivers, cabinets, passive crossover networks that arrive at a certain sound. Changing any one of these elements is most certainly going to change that sound. The passive crossover network, as inefficent as it might be, was designed (perhaps with more efficent drivers for example) to work in concert with the other parts of the speaker to achieve a certain level of performance. If by changing the speaker cable leading to the inefficent passive crossover network improves the sound to the ear of the listener, then I suppose it was worth whatever amount of money was put into the cables. I am also a firm believer that any upgrades or improvements one makes to their audio system is completely limited by the performance of the surrounding components. Meaning if you have a $500 HTIB any you drop $500 in a set of Kimber speaker cables, you're probably not going to hear much difference. However, if your components are all Krell Master Reference with Wilson Audio WattPuppy speakers, the difference in one cable to another might be completely noticeable. Just my opinion, of course!

[This message has been edited by harp795 (edited May 11, 2004).]

Have you ever actually heard a well setup active crossover system?

If a cable running inside a speaker cabinet, passive crossover coils not included, is all of one to three feet long, and in some cases only a few inches long, the resistance over that distance, assuming the cable is in good shape and properly connected, would be almost immeasurably low. Over a very short run with negligible resistance at audible frequencies, no engineer is going to have a concern about skin effect or reduction of damping or who knows what else one might worry about. I think that in the manufacturing process, if the wire has acceptable performance characteristics for an 8-inch run, designers become more concerned with ease of working with the wire during construction, durability over time, etc.

There are probably pages and pages that could be written to explain engineering and electrical property issues that would speak to the many reasons why not having any reactive impedance (coil/capacitor) networks between an amplifier and a corresponding loudspeaker driver is advantageous. Certainly some passive crossover networks are designed to do more than simply divide frequencies, so if one were to remove the passive crossover network and go with a truly bi-amped or tri-amped situation, one would have to know if the active crossover network prior to the amplification needed to do more than be a simple frequency-dividing crossover. But assuming that an active crossover can perform the tasks that the passive crossover accomplished, going with an active crossover and an amplifier channel directly connected each driver will almost always result in some very noticeable positive differences.

Almost without exception, in all the professional sound-reinforcement situations I have personally seen, there is, at a minimum, active bi-amping. I cannot say that I have seen (or heard) an apples-to-apples comparison where the same system was operating while switching between the single-amp, passive crossover method and a multiple-amp, active crossover method. However I can say that the systems where the direct connection between amp and loudspeaker was possible, even at similar listening levels, the ‘control’ the amp had over the speaker driver gave the bass greater ‘definition and authority’ as well as allowing the treble more ‘clarity.’ Most production companies I have worked with would not buy double the number of amps and cable and increase their costs unless there was an obviously noticeable improvement for doing so.

soundhound, I’m here to learn so please bear with me.
Signal from the source component is less susceptible to degradation when put through active crossover circuit than amplified signal from amp going through passive crossover circuit?

The setup you mentioned and own is really tempting. Am I missing something or is it (active bi-amping) just not as commercialized as passive crossover system (some are very expensive)? None of the audio stores I’ve been in including Mark Levinson’s Red Rose Music has such setup. In fact, the first time I’ve seen a comprehensive description of sound system using active crossover was where I expected the least. It was in Popular Hot Rodding TV http://www.phrtv.com/index.asp

I have yet to run into a person who’s auditioned an active bi-amp system and I doubt I will any time soon. None of my friends have, including the one I would consider an audiophile. Besides the cost and size, what could possibly be the reason?

soundhound, I assume this active bi-amping system meets your quality standard. It wouldn’t be me because I just do buildings but if someone can turn it into a package system like many consumer products have been, wouldn’t that someone make a fortune?

Active bi and tri amping is routine in professional recording studios, theaters, and other applications. There are also a good number of active speakers available like the Mackie HR 824 which have built-in power amps and active crossover.

The technical reasons for the superiority of this setup could take pages to list, but basically a passive crossover presents a complex reactive load before the signal ever gets to the speaker drivers. The passive components are wasteful of power and add significant resistance in-line with the woofer. This destroys a great deal of the damping factor of a good power amplifier. I could go on and on, but suffice to say, the benefits are extensive. Also, you can use power amplifiers that suit the particular frquency band to be reproduced such as a smooth tube amp for the highs and a good, stiff solid state amplifier to control the woofer.

The reason you don't see is in the consumer area is because it requires some advanced knowhow in setup to get it right in addidtion to an RTA/calibrated microphone. The required expertise is very rare in the "high end" audiophile dealer networks - the knowledge is routine in the professional area. I have never met someone in a consumer dealership that had any knowledge of active systems, and of course they are in business to sell what they have - conventional speakers with passive crossovers.

The reality is that most audiophiles would be overwhelmed with the setup variables required with multiple amplifiers and crossover setup, let alone the average consumer. However the extra work is well worth the effort, and much more productive than endless futzing with cables and other boutique tweaks. Acive crossovers make real and obvious improvements in the performance and sound of a system.

Another reason that speaker manufacturers especially have not embraced active crossovers is that it takes control of the "sound" of a particular speaker out of the hands of the manufacturer and places that control in the hands of the consumer. In other words, the consumer can make their speaker system sound pretty much how they wish with an active setup - the manufacturer is just supplying the raw drivers and the cabinet in essence. It's easy to see why most speaker manufacturers would not like this idea.

Alrighty.... So... Where are some good active crossover references?

http://www.snippets.org/filters/crossover.htm

I found this site a little while ago and almost ordered the parts to make a crossover based on what the spreadsheet on that site recommended...

i would agree that active has its advantages over passive crossovers, but as you pointed out not everyone is capable of setting them up properly and can experience dreadful results.
also you must note that if you have passive speakers already, YOU CANNOT DISABLE THE PASSIVE CROSSOVER BUILT INTO THE SPEAKER UNLESS YOU PHYSICALLY REMOVE IT. so if you are planning on doing an active crossover network before a passive speaker it is worthless, because the speaker will still cross the signal over again.
i have a lot of knowledge of audio, but i am not vain enough to say that i know how to design better speakers than major manufacturers, so ill stick with what ive got and what i am happy with. nor am i gonna run out and buy a bunch of new speakers.
the crossover inside of your speaker is optimized for its components, JUST LIKE THE WIRE INSIDE IS OPTOMIZED for its purpose, and while it may not be perfect it is good.
and remember that regardless of how perfect you think your system may be, it is still going to only sound as good as it was recorded or worse. ideally it would sound exactly like it was recorded, more than how you "want it to sound, or expect it to sound".
a lot of people love tube amps and there is a reason why, they produce a sound that you like to hear. is it 100% accurate (most of the time)?, no, but good and accurate are not always the same.

and fyi this forum is about speaker cables, so take all this other crap into its own space.

I wasn't aware that anything that does not originate from your mind is crap.

Sorry curegeorg but there isn't a forum labled "Active vs. Passive Crossovers", so i guess this forum is as good as any.

Soundhound, I have no doubts that a professionally calibrated completely active setup would sound fantastic. Maybe even superior to an equivalent passive network. Just like a calibrated HT with speakers that use passive crossover networks can sound fantastic, if you're willing to spend the money to get there. My point is simply that not ALL systems (and as you so beautifully state, users) will benefit from active vs. passive networks. Besides, we are all at the mercy of our rooms, our recordings and spouses. It's a wonder we ever get any equipment we like!

Well, actually it's about interconnects, not speaker cables. It's not like this section is being overrun with OT discussions.

They don't call us Outlaws for nothing!

That should be clear by now... :-) I thought you felt the same way about yourself, or MAYBE it just SEEMS that way.

You are absolutely right of course that active crossovers are not for everyone, and probably not for the majority either. I was simply trying to point out that there is a lot of improvement that can be had by "thinking outside the black boxes" of what manufacturers offer up - they after all are market driven and this does not necessairly equate to the finest possible sound for a given amount of money.

Having worked for two speaker companies (Altec Lansing and JBL) for a total of about 10 years, I know firsthand that what goes into a speaker is a compromise of factors like cost and the level of user interaction required. Active crossovers are very user intensive and passive crossover speakers are set-and-forget affairs.

The audio hobby in it's early years used to be very user interactive with many kits available and project articles published - not anymore. The norm is take what you get from manufacturers and don't dare mess with what's inside. About all that is left for the average person is experimenting with cables and other tweaks.

Active crossovers, while more difficult to set up than a conventional system, are not rocket science either. The required knowledge is easily gained. Personally, I think that it is a shame that the DIY spirit has essentially vanashed from the audio scene and people assume that "the speaker manufacturer knows best and who am I to question their judgement".

Nope, I just have 30 years experience in the sound and recording industries and have thrashed out just about every audio issue imaginable - usually many times over. Been there, done that.

A bunch of speaker companies would list the crossover point of their drivers. B&W does in their website. That should make it a bit easier to tinker with if one decides to go with active bi-amp using B&W speakers.

Magnepan's are also terribly easy to convert (the speakers I've been considering doing this to)... there's just a little cloth seperating the crossover from the outside world

Yes this is the first step, in addition to determining the crossover slopes used. Then one would need to run a frequency response curve at the input to the individual speaker drivers to determine what, if any, response contouring (voicing) takes place in the passive crossover (an RTA would do this). If there is some maniupulation of the response in order to "voice" the system, this could be duplicated by an external equalizer - or not - this is totally up to the user.

Then, the polarity of the drivers would need to be established for flattest response through the crossover region - this could be determined by looking at the response of the system on an RTA (like TrueRTA). The final step would be looking at the system on an RTA and establishing the volume levels for the induvidual speaker drivers for flattest response.

Of course, one could deviate somewhat in crossover frequency and slope, in addition to "voicing" options with an external equalizer, in addition to adjusting the relative volumes of the speaker drivers. "Flat" response on an RTA does not necessairly yield the best, most realistic sound - this is one beauty of an active setup since the character of the final sound from the speaker is completely in the hands of the consumer.

Yes, and the original passive crossover does not have to be completely removed from the system, just disconnected. Restoring "stock" condition would be easy then.

I intend to go with DIY speakers again when I do CHT 2.0, and the intention is to bi-amp and use active crossovers. It should be EASIER since tweaking is so much less painful.

Stay tuned ...

DIY speakers are the ultimate solution to getting exactly what you want. Are you going to build in-wall subs again?

I'm not sure. The physical coupling to the house frame gave a sort of 'kick' that I've never experienced before or since. On the other hand, it took a lot of effort to get that stuff ready during a home build since almost by definition I don't have a nice place to work. I certainly want to use built in wiring (hey, I'm on topic!) and I think I'll run 3 pair to each location. Other than that, I think everything will end up being freestanding. I'm considering maybe getting some of those 'frame shakers' and tying into the floor system though, just so I can have the option. That would also make it tune-able....

I'm also going to be very aggressive with deadening treatments this time. The plan is for it to be a real dedicated space, so I can maybe do a bit more. Probably use FP for video, even.

Wheeeee.

A small high quality speaker manufacturer is beginning development with active crossover systems as part of a reference system. Bamberg Labs produces speaker kits that are reported to be very good to excellent. Check them out at bamberglab.com.

Jump into car audio, it's very much alive and kicking over there.

I don't know if many people fully mean the manufacturer knows best, or more that they get it pretty darn good. It does take a lot of time and effort. Many people are just set it and forget it. It' the tinkering type who'll get into that more. You don't have to be a handyman, but you need that kind of spirit. I'm definitely going to look into it when my existing setup gets old, but that won't be for years.

I ride motorcycles - not exactly practical.

Oh I don't know Soundhound. I once had a fellow motorcyclist friend who spent all sorts of time custom installing speakers in his helmet - and gear on his Goldwing.

Personally I liked the sound of my 1983 Honda 1100F's engine, and the wind racing by, better. (Mind you the sound of my Honda shearing the arse end off a Datsun B210 at 120mph, followed by the sound of my helmet scraping highway pavement for 150 yards kinda put me off motorcycles!)

Jeff Mackwood

Keeping on topic, what cables did he use?

Quick disconnects - I presume.

Jeff Mackwood

West Coast Choppers and Orange County Choppers are both fun TV shows to watch but if you have to choose one, which will it be?

They're both local to me - probably Jesse James.

Soundhound,

As you may know, I use Mackie 824s in my ht. I originally used them only for their intended purpose: as close range monitors in my home recording studio but one day I realized that I was hearing playback that was very close to what I was recording. When I tried 'em in the theatre, especially in contrast to the Alesis powered monitors I was using as surrounds, I was convinced I was on to something. Now I understand that the active bi-amping in these speakers might be the secret. In any case, I heartily recommend Mackie 824s as primary speakers in a 5.1 setup. (BTW, the smaller Mackie's don't sound as good, IMHO. Also, I'm not sure whether the Mackie active sub might be an improvement over the Outlaw lfm I'm listening to now.) One other thing: they can be bought at your local Guitar Center at a steeply discounted price.

Jay

How can they both be local to you? The Orange County Choppers on TV is in New York. Jesse's shop in in Califorina. Maye it is
made possible using tube amps.

That's brain fade on my part. There is a custom motorcycle shop in Orange County CA that I thought was being referred to. I don't watch TV at all so I am completely unfamiliar with the shows, but I have heard of them. I've ridden past West Coast Choppers many times on my way to the Long Beach motorcycle shows every December. Jesse James ususlly has a bike or two on display there.

Maybe I should stick to cables.....

I have used the Mackie HR 824s many times and have been blown away by their sound - especially their low end. That kind of performance would not be possible without active crossovers and the electronic tuning that is done. The manin thing that characterizes active systems is the clarity and definition, along with lack of power compression.

sh, i guarantee you that active crossover network is not the greatest thing since the wheel. you can get equal performance from a good passive network inside your speakers, plus THE CROSSOVER IN YOUR SPEAKERS IS OPTIMIZED FOR YOUR SPEAKERS. i realize that you have more control for active crossover, but the goal is accurate reproduction of a source, if you fiddle with all kinds of crap you are defeating the goal and altering the sound (ideally it is unaltered). you have to know A LOT about your speakers before doing an active setup. i have personally used an active crossover setup in the past and compared it with my much simpler setup utilizing passive crossovers (using the same speakers, one set with crossovers taken out). the results were inconclusive, so having found no real advantage i scrapped the active and its headaches. everything in the two setups was the same except for active or passive crossover (well and amount of cables, which was neglible). just because something works for you doesnt mean it is the BEST THING EVER. you cant make broad sweeping statements about how active crossovers will make your system excellent and passive are crap.

Just because it works for the entire professional audio world is not reason enough either?

I would humbly suggest that you consider there might be other forum members that might find my information useful, and might want to experiment with an active setup.

Your points have been noted.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited May 13, 2004).]

another broad sweeping statement... and no its not. what works for professional audio is not always best for home. if it did, then their would be no difference between the two and their would be no need to label one as professional audio and one as home theater, because there would only be audio.
"I would humbly suggest that you consider there might be other forum members that might find my information useful, and might want to experiment with an active setup.

Your points have been noted."
You just added that, and I would agree, and if they do they should definitely talk to you about it.



[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited May 13, 2004).]

I am all for talking about any audio topic - I just ask that you bring specific and direct personal experiences with these issues to the table. If you did not find your experiences with active bi-amping successful, please elaborate about the setup, the manner you calibrated the system (the RTA for example), and the amplification used - and the speakers themselves. That would help others and myself understand how you came up with the conslusions you do.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited May 13, 2004).]

funny that you say that, because at one time just about everyone thought that the earth was flat. if everyone had taken it for granted that this was true, then we would have never found out that it was round.

How do you guys feel about the 11AWG Canare Quad speaker Cables? I will be running a 950 Preaamp and 770 Poweramp. Will single ended bananas fit into the 770 nicely?

Canare is good cable. I use similar quad cable made by Gepco for my mains, and 10 gauge regular two conductor for my subwoofers. 11 gauge is large enough for just about any practical run in your listening room, especially if you double up the leads.

I don't know about the banana plug outputs on the amp - others probably will.

that canare starquad looked very good imo, look around at a lot of sites because there is a definite range of prices for the same stuff.

the cost of banana plugs is ridiculous. today is the first day off ive had since i got my wire and tubing delivered, so i think im gonna tube em up and cut the wire etc. just ordered the bananas.