any one have any ideas when the new 970 or 990 is coming out? can't wait for hdmi inputs! i assume they will do hdmi switching like the 970/990 do dvi switching. right?

There's a thread somewhere in which Peter Tribeman chimed in and said that while they were actively looking at HDMI v1.3 inputs, they had no specific time frame that they could guarantee. He didn't seem to take much exception to my general-purpose estimates on when anybody will have HDMI v1.3 processors ready - end of 2007 or early 2008 being the absolute soonest that I am guessing any HDMI v1.3 pre/pros might appear (whether it's Outlaw, Anthem, Rotel, Sherwood, Emotiva, Arcam, Adcom, or somebody else).

In other words while hdmi 1.3 "sending' chip is out (i.e. bluray etc)...it hasn't been out yet for the receiving end (i.e. 990, anothem sherwood, etc).

Basically, yeah. The HDMI v1.3 sending chips were pushed hard to be ready in time for the PS3 to include v1.3, but the receiving chips ended up on the sidelines as a result. I've got to assume that at least production samples are available now, but you still have to wrap a platform around that and get all the new decoding modes working - something that will take some time. After all, we haven't even seen DTS-HD Master Audio decoding in any players yet.

Well while it's true that there was a delay between Players with HDMI 1.3 and processors...

The big reason for the delay was entirely due to corporations already having their products lined up for 2006/2007 release.

We're just now seeing HDMI 1.3 hit the stores in Receivers. Currently shipping is the Onkyo unit for instance.

Denon will have their units shipping in June/July.

Arcam will be announcing new Receivers with HDMI 1.3 as well as a Processor with 1.3 at CEDIA, and I believe some if not all those units will be shipping immediately after CEDIA.

Even Theta Digital has an upgrade for their Casablanca III in the works for a November release.

Anthem will have HDMI 1.3 units announced at CEDIA as well.

You will also see a lot of TVs being released that are Deep Color capable at CEDIA.

So I'd suspect that Outlaw if they wanted, could have new processors and receiver announced between September and sometime early next year.

You'd have to figure they would want to get it in for the holidays.

I believe that DTS taking their time is a much bigger reason for delays than the chips.

It's more than just product line-ups: HDMI v1.3 receiver chips were simply not ready until very recently, as all of the chip-makers' attention went to v1.3 transmitter chips once the spec was published (a little gadget called the PS3 needed that). You couldn't very well design the hardware without those chips, and the software development could only go so far without fairly final hardware to drive.

I've long suggested that we would see Outlaw HDMI v1.3 hardware no sooner than Q4 2007, with my realistic expectations landing somewhere in 2008. Depending on how everything goes, part of the decision that Outlaw may be faced with later this year is whether to push to be one of the first with HDMI v1.3 or whether to make sure that their first HDMI v1.3 product is solid (something that is of course possible but certainly not guaranteed considering the new layers of complexity involved). CEDIA is in September. By then, we know that we'll have a couple different Onkyo offerings on the market as well as a few other players in place (Denon, for example). That's also the time frame that the receiver shown at CES by Sherwood was projected to arrive. I don't doubt that we'll start seeing significant announcements at CEDIA, but whether those announced products will ship this fall is going to depend on a lot of variables. I tend to trust in Murphy to exert his full share of influence over those variables, which is why I still retain suspicions that we'll see a steady but perhaps slow trickle of HDMI v1.3 receivers and processors this fall. I hadn't heard specific word of Arcam, Theta, and Anthem having committed to a specific time frame for v1.3 adoption - where have you seen that?

I'm a Systems Integrator, the reps for those companies have mentioned that CEDIA will be where they announce the new 1.3 products. How soon after is a guess due to knowing how quickly those companies deliver after announcing. Theta can delay, delay, delay and usually does. They don't release a product until it's perfect.

Arcam likely has just made rather simple updates to their AVR350 for the Receiver. Their rep says to expect a Receiver replacements with HDMI 1.3 and a replacement for their inexpensive processor (in comparison to their other processor).

Arcam has been developing those products for awhile. Anthem just says look for them to announce new product at CEDIA, announced product doesnt mean shipping.

As for Sherwood Newcastle's Receiver it's going to ship late July/August.

As for chips, if January is recent, then yes it's been recent.

By the end of August we will have Receivers with HDMI 1.3 from Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Sony, and Pioneer.

If Outlaw is smart they already have things moving forward just waiting on data from DTS...

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that both Sherwood and Outlaw have another processor in the works to be announced end of summer (at least by Sherwood).

Cool. I also have no doubts that Outlaw's chewing on something HDMI v1.3 related - Peter Tribeman has basically said as much, at least in general terms. I'd call January mighty recent for the chips - that's not even four full months ago, after all, and thinking about how much design would have to be impacted by those chips I would think that even "retrofitting" an existing design with them and the new decoding modes would be more than a six-month exercise. It should be an interesting summer/fall, at least.

I don't know what the supply line is like, but Onkyo's 605 receiver is scheduled for late May. It has HDMI 1.3 inputs, DeepColor support, and internal decoding for DTS Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD, and Dolby Digital Plus.

DTS doesn't seem to be the reason for the hold up in the pre-pro community now. I am VERY tempted to try a new 2007 Onkyo, Denon, or Marantz receiver as a pre-pro this summer if the reviews of sound quality and features are positive and bugs are kept to a minimum.

The higher end Onkyo's (top two or three) have Silicon Optix' newest Reon-VX processor with HQV modes for motion adaptive and per-pixel 1080p upscaling and inverse telecine for 480i up to 1080i sources (DeepColor too??) with 1080p source pass through, Texas Instruments' newest DSP chips (for all the new audio formats), and eight of the new TI/Burr-Brown 1796 architecture model DAC's, 36 bit DeepColor support, and may include auto lip synch.

We'll see what Outlaw can come up with and whether it can wipe the floor with these new bad boy receivers. I can't wait to find out.

For those who remember their SATs or have kids taking them now....

The Anthem AVM 30 is to the Outlaw 990 as the Anthem AVM 50 is to the Outlaw ______.

While Outlaw has said they won't have a new pre/pro out for a while it is fun to contemplate what they are cooking up around the campfire!

Great post, AvFan.

Must have patience...Speculation could run rampant that the lower price on the 990 is a precursor to a new pre/pro. For now lets say it is just the Outlaws working hard to contain costs and make the flagship 990 an even better deal.

all,
As mentioned by Scott in the Pre 4th Announcements ,
There is a small supply of 1070's left. "When there gone - there gone. also mentioned a new receiver coming out in 2008. ...... mmmmmm

2008 will be an interesting year for Outlaws....
... as far as electronics.

I am still cranking on my 950 so I can wait until late 2007, but mid-2008 may be pushing it. I don't want to buy outboard switcher boxes for video only, so OLs, get in gear and deliver. You/I need a new pre/processor for at least 3 source switching (4 sources would be best) of HDMIv1.1 (yes v1.3 would be better), newer audio decoding capability for the optical and coax streams up to 8 channels in to out with analog line drive, no balanced lines but quality RCA phono connectors, an updated universal remote, and a more user friendly user interface on a graphic display LCD panel (color OK but not required). No touch-screen, but something better than straight LCD character lines. Black case and no wierd color schemes please. Oh yes, and less than $800 please.

And with the dual sub outs, have them software switchable from mono to stereo, pretty please.

JDB001 posted: "You/I need a new pre/processor for at least 3 source switching (4 sources would be best) of HDMIv1.1 (yes v1.3 would be better), newer audio decoding capability for the optical and coax streams up to 8 channels in to out with analog line drive, no balanced lines but quality RCA phono connectors, an updated universal remote, and a more user friendly user interface on a graphic display LCD panel (color OK but not required). No touch-screen, but something better than straight LCD character lines. Black case and no weird color schemes please. Oh yes, and less than $800 please."


Now that is what I'm looking for !

The price point is important (as I noted above). The 'laws do not need another $1200 - $1400 preamp/controller/decoder - unless they give us a cost effective unit also. To keep it in the $800 range (which means the Law boys can spend at least $300 on the hardware), forget about balanced audio lines in/out, up-convert or down-convert video to the HD HDMI ports is not absolutely necessary (but would be handy on at least one stream connection - set-up menus should be available on the HDMI signal), and extensive EQ on all analog channels is not necessary - just some basic bass management. Some of the newer 7.1 audio modes and passing the discrete signal from the disc out at least the fiber audio port (and coax port) would be very useful. At other places in the hideout, there have been extensive list for the new 990(Hitchman comes to mind), but those request sound more like a digital sound design workstation than an audio/video controllers for consummer home theater. It's OK to build the top-of-the-line box for the selected well-off few, if the realy nice and affordable box is made for the rest of us (for around $800) - i.e., the new 970, a.k.a. the 980.
Outlaws - Get cranking on the new box - we need it out here in the hinderlands.

I think you've got a good point - that the next generation would be well served by having two price points covered much like we have presently with the 970 and 990. The higher point could dabble in the really fancy stuff (Reon chipsets and third-party EQ schemes like Audyssey) where appropriate, while the lower point could scale back some of those aspects while offering a similar core feature set (much like the 990 and 970 do now).

Gonk,

As long as we see the higher end unit first, I'm okay with that...

That'd be a happy arrangement. It's impossible to say which will come first, unfortunately, and what we've seen from other companies so far (Onkyo being the obvious example) sugggests that the lower end (and thus potentially less complex) model may be easier to get into production first.

According to the most recent email from the Outlaws, the next generation is being held up by problems with the newer generation of DSP they want to use.

So looks like we might not see the new pieces until late Q1 or early Q2.

Unfortunately for me, I won't be able to upgrade my processor anytime soon.

Have a girlfriend now and that really limits what I can spend on toys...need a new amp and speakers to replace my aging Kenwood THX stuff first anyhow.

But I know that Outlaw will give us quality stuff. I just hope they give us enough inputs.

It's pretty easy for me to wait for a new piece because I don't have any HD equipment. That being said, I plan on upgrading nearly everything next year.

Right now I'm just starting to see products that support HDMI 1.3 and they're all rather expensive. Many products say they support HDMI, but they don't say which version - you really have to dig around.

I think mid-2008 will be a prime time to purchase HD equipment. Most manufactures will have products supporting HDMI 1.3 and many will have 2nd or 3rd generation products just entering the market so competition for consumers will be high, which will drive prices down. At least that's what I hope will happen.

Hurry Outlaw...having hard time...resisiting...Onkyo/Integra...please

Just kidding, but I am anxiously awaiting the 990 replacement.

BloggingITGuy wrote:

I won't be able to upgrade my processor anytime soon. Have a girlfriend now and that really limits what I can spend on toys...

What can I say

Hey, what's new on the new 970 --> 980 front (and I will conceed 990 --> 1K)? We need the new 980 base level control unit(as discussed above) ASAP. What, with the new program content showing up on disk, I am feeling oppressed and deprived. I am sure the gonkster has the inside scoop. How long do we have to wait? I saw the mailing from Scott (I think) a couple months ago with the deals on the 970/990, but I need (OK, want) the new 7.1, 8.0, 10.2, and full PCM stuff. It is just killing me to see the hot-dog sound tracks on the new Blue Ray and HD-DVD disks that come up good old 5.1 on the 950. De-pressss--ing.

The last that we've heard is what was included in the "double down" announcement back in October...

I would think it would be prudent to keep the MSRP below the $1600-1800 point points of the Onkyo/Integra "new gen" processors.

How much was the initial MSRP for the Model 990?

A little pricing history:

Model 950 started at $899, went to $799 about a year later, ended up at $699 for the final few months of production.

Model 970 started at $799, after October's sale it has settled in at $699.

Model 990 started at $1099, dropped to $999 earlier this year (forget when exactly), and after October's sate it has settled in at $899 now.

It's hard to say what'll happen with the next gen products. I'd hope that they'd remain fairly true to their roots - which would suggest something at or under $900 and perhaps something "upscale" from there between $1100 and $1300.

Wow, thanks gonk!

I figured I'd have to drop more than that, if the Outlaws stick close to that pricing structure, that is.

I gotta admit, I personally couldn't care less about the video performance of the processor. It would be a decent bonus, but I'd hate to spend potentially hundreds more for more esoteric video abilities. I'd much rather see a heavy emphasis on audio performance and capability.

Also, I wonder what case design Outlaw will adopt? I like the Model 990 case design. I believe Boston Acoustics and Sherwood utilized this design as well. It's not ultra sexy, but looks built for ass-kickin' and has a nice amount of space between the front panel buttons and back panel connections.

Though whatever Outlaw chooses for its look, hopefully it's nothing like Emotiva's "it just looks expensive" cheesiness and gaudy "Christmas tree" blue lighting of their components.

The Model 990 case is taken from Sherwood's R-965, which was also used by Sherwood's P-965 and Boston Acoustics' short-lived adventure into separates (an adventure that came to a screeching halt around the time that D&M Holdings bought them - no point sustaining that line with Denon and Marantz already in the stable). I've read that the R-965 chassis is being used for Sherwood's planned R-972 receiver. The question is whether Outlaw plans to build on that platform or on something else - their relationship with Eastech pre-dates their relationship with Etronics (the company that owns Sherwood and does the manufacturing), so it's hard to say which way it could go. The 990's chassis is pretty darn huge, which was a problem for some people, but it's worked out nicely for me - I certainly wouldn't object to seeing it return for a second generation, although Outlaw might be just as happy to shave an inch or two of height off just to minimize the "but it's HUGE" objections.

As for the front, I am going to agree with you - I've been quite happy with the industrial design of the 990 and the other products of its generation. The "950 style" got made fun of a great deal, and I think some people still criticize Outlaw gear as "ugly" because of that even though they made some pretty significant changes. As for the Emotiva stuff, I thought the DMC-1 design was nice even if I didn't care for the single-line display (too little info for the gadget geek in me), but the LMC-1/MMC-1 design that has become their new standard isn't one I'm as fond of.

Oh, yeah - almost forgot.
You've touched on the big "if" - we have no official information from Outlaw, just SWAG based on historical data...

I have been trying to find the "double down" promotion where Outlaw gave some particulars on the new processor. Anyone know what topic it is under?
Thanks

I'm not sure where the original topic went, but I've got the content of the announcement quoted in this post ...

Thanks, that's one I was looking for as I was debating the various products available now. But after reading that, I think I will wait until next spring to see what comes out.

Hi Gonk: I am also in the market for a new pre-pro similar to the Integra 9.8, but I'd rather wait for Outlaw. IMHO I don't think that it is necessary to include tuners in a pre-pro. That would help a little in pricing.

Welcome to the double-edged sword. There are a number of folks who would agree with you. I'm fairly indifferent, as I very occasionally use the FM tuner. There are also a number of people who would like to see support for XM, Sirius, HD radio, or all three. When compared to the cost (both hardware and software) of things like the new processing modes, video processing, EQ, and so on, a simple AM/FM tuner probably doesn't have a great impact on the final asking price. Either way, we'll see what 2008 brings...

How about no lip synch issues as some were having with the Onkyo/Integra stuff? I know HDMI 1.3 has a lip synch feature. Maybe that should be added.

I know first hand that they were having issues with Eastech QC when their Model 950 came to market. There were many small problems that had to be addressed and quite a few swap outs occurred. Perhaps that's one reason for Outlaw not to go back to Eastech again.

Dan

My understanding of HDMI v1.3's lip sync feature is that it requires the entire signal path to support both v1.3 and that (optional) automatic lip sync capability. I'd like to see the automatic feature included, but it'll need to also retain the older manual lip sync adjustment.

Outlaw did go back to Eastech after the 950 - Eastech did the 1070/970. The 990 did establish a new relationship with Etronics, though, so it's impossible (at least for us gunslingers) to say which way they'll go for the next round.

When I tried a last generation Yamaha receiver, the documentation stated that the automatic lip synch is functional if supported by the display as well.

This means that a lot of us will be left out of that feature unless we upgrade the video display.

Is this your understanding as well?

This entire premature birth of HDMI is so frustrating. It might end up being a good thing, but it produced a lot of grief in the process of being finalized only because was rushed to market, for profit, and every iteration left another group of early adopters wishing they hadn't made the step...

That matches my understanding of automatic lip sync. Plus, it just makes sense - for the feature to truly work, every component in the signal path that might be applying video processing (and thus potentially incurring a video signal delay) must be able to contribute to the determination of the sync delay. Otherwise, you will always have the potential to need to manually tweak the sync delay to account for the device that lacks automatic capability.

Auto lip-sync OK on the hi-End Model (1k?), but only manual adjust over modest range for the cost effective controller. "We don't need no stinkin' automatic stuff in the new entry level system controller (Model 980?) -- please." Just switching at HDMI 1.3 on 3 inputs (min) or 4 inputs (ideal) with one output. Extraction of audio stream into Dolby/DTS HD decodes and 8 chan audio also required on analog outputs. Also, modest flexibility on bass management and no balanced lines in or out please. Default 5.1 decode of streams from Dolby and DTS required and fiber input on at least a couple channels assumed (from the player or tuner).

No "big" added cost please on up-converting video. If the source output (tuner, HD DVD or BluRay players) or the receiver (TV monitor or projector) do not support, then we do not need to pay. New audio capability and 1920x1080p video support on the switching and control, and maybe, just maybe, up-convert to 1920x1080i for component output - if price point can be meet. Got to keep the new model (980?) at the $800 (absolute max $899) price point level out the door (of the website). For you rich guys (and gals) out there ready to shell-out $1500+ for a new box, let us in the "have-nots" crowd have something also. Outlaws - hold the line on the feature set for the new "lower cost" box (980?) - please.

When are we going to see it? I look at my e-mail every day for that big announcement from the OL's.
Thanks.

They both need manual, because the automatic will only work if you have also upgraded your entire signal path to HDMI v1.3 with automatic lip sync support (which is an optional aspect of v1.3, thus not guaranteed). Aside from that bit of nit-pickery, I agree. As for when, I still think it'll be spring at the earliest, but I've been wrong before...

I've been following this thread and the developments on the Onkyo / Denon side, and I'm wondering...

If the 990 and/or 970's successor does not include Audyssey MultiEQ (or similar scheme), would it be a deal breaker for you?

A few weeks ago, I personally would have said "no;" but I've read so many great things about Audyssey, I would now have serious reservations.

Apart from the benefits of dialing in the room response and optimizing multiple seating locations, I would be able to unload my SMS-1 and thus have one less box and cables cluttering my A/V rack.

From where I'm sitting (in my teeny tiny sweet spot), that's pretty tempting.

I really haven't decided either way yet. Audyssey has come a long way since its early forms, and the MultEQ version apparently yields good results in most cases. There has also been some chatter in a couple places about an alternative or two that could be on par with it (one that I've seen just a little bit about is Trinnov). For the 970 replacement, I don't know that I'd expect to see either, although some form of automatic EQ would probably be appreciated. For the 990 replacement, interest in something on par with Audyssey is likely to be high.

Well stated, gonk; I've got to wonder though: You can pick up the Onkyo TX-SR705 receiver -- which includes Audyssey MultiEQ -- for about $650 online. At the opposite side of the spectrum, the Onkyo pro and Integra pre/pros with Audyssey MultiEQ retail for $1,600 - $2,000. That makes me think the Audyssey processor is not the determining factor in the price differential. I could be wrong. Perhaps Onkyo has some sweetheart deal based on volume of sales that Outlaw could never touch.

If not, I would hope everyone would pay roughly the same for the chips and salsa that make Audyssey work (isn't that the case with surround processing chips?). Therefore, Outlaw could include it in the next generation of pre/pros and compete with the big dogs.

I realize I may be missing something here in terms of economies of scale, so if my reasoning is way off on this one, let me know.

Here's the difference directly from the manufacturer:

http://www.audyssey.com/products/products_onkyo.html

Notice how the high end versions use more measurement points in the room. Also, notice how the filter resolution changes. Basically the more advanced versions have more bands of EQ that can be used to tweak the signal further.

Hope that helps.

My father in law just bought an Integra for $1100 and I think it's using up to 10 points in the room...I've only demo'd it for an hour or so but it seems like a nice unit.

Heh, that's just a selling point, doubt that it adds any actual cost to the unit.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it does add some cost to the unit as it takes more DSP power to process more points.

Take a digital audio sampling rate as an example. The more times you sample the wave, the smoother the curve you're going to get. The Audyssey is taking the same approach, more points equal a smoother response. That's a very simplified explanation but is the best I can do on a Friday night.

That's assuming that the DSP is underpowered in the lower models. Most often, the parts are the same or very similar, but bits are turned off or otherwise crippled on the cheaper version, but the development costs remain essentially the same for the entire product range.

When it comes to software like that, the cost is typically spent once in writing the software and they just write it in such a way that they can turn stuff off as needed for the "lower end".

Thus they can charge a premium for it at the high end, but in terms of cost to produce, the added feature does not increase cost.

Not sure about this but Sherwood Newcastle has a P-965 replacement coming out this year (May) and they hinted Outlaw would have their own version.

4 HMDI ins, 1 out. All the latest codecs. Reon chipset. Trinnov's innovative equalization programming (that is different and in final product superior to the competition).

It's going to sell for $1499 just like the unit it is replacing.

So perhaps we will see a $1099 Outlaw version.

Are you talking about the Sherwood R-972 receiver, or have they actually indicated they'll have a processor version of it? The R-972 is going to be $1800 if I remember correctly.

No I'm talking about a replacement for the P-965. Jeff over at Sherwood wasn't too sure if they could make May which was why they weren't announcing it officially at CES.

Seems the Cirrus Logic chipsets for HDMI 1.3 are extremely backlogged and slow to get to Manufacturers.

This chip problem is the reason for just about every manufacturer not having HDMI 1.3 units out. The manufacturers who can purchase in mass bulk are the only ones who have received them (the big boys so to speak) the others are waiting rather impatiently.

Sherwood sells more Receivers than Processors so the R-872 and R-972 got more attention from them considering the chip delays.

This means to me May could be the earliest we may even hear of a 990 or 970 replacement.

Could be the 1070 might be replaced first.

is it even confirmed that Outlaw is going with the Sherwood model again?

I would really like to see 2 HDMI outs.

Lotus's post seems to suggest that someone at Sherwood's CES booth hinted at such, but if that really is the case it would be the first hint we've had. The only word we've seen from Outlaw is that something (apparently more than one something, actually) is in the works.

Two HDMI outputs would be useful for folks running both a projector and a flat panel display, but I believe it gets into some potentially hairy HDCP issues and (possibly because of that) I've seen some things that suggest that not all two-output receivers actually have both active at once.

gonk wrote:


Two HDMI outputs would be useful for folks running both a projector and a flat panel display, but I believe it gets into some potentially hairy HDCP issues and (possibly because of that) I've seen some things that suggest that not all two-output receivers actually have both active at once.

Concerning the outputs: it would be great if the two outputs were slectable, thus with four inputs you would have a 4 x 2 matrix.

gonk's thoughts about HDCP problem may well be the key here. I bought (and am sending back) a monoprice.com 4x2 HDMI matrix switcher. After insuring that cables, sources and destinations were all OK I could not get it to pass a signal.
Tech sent a replacement. Same siguation. Getting refund. So maybe a matrixed output will never happen. Thoughts?

The problem that occurs to me when doing this inside a surround receiver or processor is signal processing. If you have one HDMI input going to one output and another HDMI input going to a second output, which one is receiving the audio (and often video) processing that is one of the surround processor's principle reasons for existence? Which one is feeding audio to the main zone? Basically, whichever one is going to the second output is going to have to be a pure pass-through of the HDMI signal - the expense required to afford the second output any sort of real audio processing capacity is going to get ugly fast, which is hard to justify for a feature that very few users will ever need.

Agreed hard to justify cost...and I belive Gefen has one for big bucks, so gonk is right that if that circuity was and could be included...up goes the price, bigtime.

I was disappointed in the mnoprice matrix not working. It's price of $90 was quite appealing. They, of course have other switchers with one output, but that's not what I wanted....and who knows, maybe their 5x1 would fail also.

My suggestion?

A vacuum tube output stage!!!

There was an Etronics person there and it was the idea my business partner got from him. It would make sense if true.

The real disappointing thing is the lack of Cirrus Chips. I want an audiophile solution to HDMI processing units not a Denon Receiver.

There appears to be a great deal of mis-information out there about the reason behind the delays in receivers and processors that use the new Cirrus CS 49xxx series DSP chips. The bloggers who are spreading that info are doing everyone a great dis-service.

Reports that the dealys are due to HDMI issues are not true. The audio DSP chip does not connect to HDMI directly, but rather, it sees the streams that are output from the HDMI Receiver, or "Rx" chip. None of the audio DSP products out there now have built-in Rx capabilities, and while some of the video processing chips in the works from a number of manufacturers will add an on-boards Rx, none of the audio DSPs will.

The reasons, unfortunately, lie elsewhere. Let's just say that those who are talking don't know, and those who know are not talking. Wish I could talk, but I can't. (Those dang NDAs have sharp teeth these days.)

HDMI Rx chips are readily available with 1.3a capabilities from more manufacturers all the time, though for the moment Silicon Image is the leading supplier. They are NOT the problem.

I hadn't realized that folks were linking the Cirrus DSP chips to HDMI input itself. Even without being in the know, that seems unreasonable - the latest 49700 chips (the chip mentioned in Outlaw's October "Double Down" newsletter) would reasonably be equivalent to the 49300 in the Model 950 and the 49400 in the 970 and 990, which obviously had no relation to HDMI at all.

The CS 497xx chips will be a significant improvement over the current 495xx and 494xx series and the older 493xx and prior series. Big step up in MIPS available so that they can do all the new codecs and many other improvements.

Designers have a choice these days between Cirrus, TI, Analog Devices and Freescale (formerly Motorola's semiconductor division). Each of the four takes a slightly different approach such that one isn't necessarily better than the other, but rather each has it's strong points and issues.

All communicate via I2S with the outputs of the HDMI Rx chips and that is how the signals get from the source to the DSP when HDMI used. In theory, there is no reason why you couldn't use the earlier chips with HDMI, but you wouldn't want to since the chips don't have te power to deal with the new codecs; it's the processing requirements, not the communications links.

Take a look here:
http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P1117.html

Punch the "Description" and "Features" buttons for more info.

I ah gettin' awful anxious the hear 8 channel audio and see HDMI video passing from from the new 980!!! Come-on 'Laws, kick 'er out!!
(My cowboy needs some work - hope the new AVPs are almost done. When do we sign up for the Beta's?)

Outlaw: For the new processor, don't forget to include 5.1 analog inputs with full ANALOG Bass Management & distance settings for your Multichannel music (SACD & DVD-Audio) fans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Also include internal DSD decoding (for SACD over HDMI).
Actually, TWO 5.1 inputs would be nice, one for a universal player, and one for those with Quadriphonic legacy systems to input.
Thanks

Surroundophile,

This is my first post on the site (been lurking for about a year before registering) and I just wanted to say that I completely agree with your suggestion!

SACD is amazing.

That's all.

Is there a small contradiction in your request, surroundophile?

When you ask for a 5.1 input with full analog bass management, it makes me think you’re looking for a purely analog path. When you ask for distance settings, wouldn’t that would mean suggesting the intervention of conversion to digital to institute those settings?

If I wished to have a purely analog path after an SACD player, and that ended up bypassing any digitally derived distance settings in the pre/pro, then I would use an SACD player that allowed me to choose distance settings affecting the SACD analog output. That way when I use digital sources with my pre/pro, the pre/pro takes care of the distance issue, when I playback SACD, the player takes care of the distance issue.

These days, with some 7.1 analog source options out there, I’d aim for a minimum of two 7.1 inputs and prefer three – maybe 2 x 7.1 plus 1 x 5.1, or 1 x 7.1 plus 2 x 5.1.

The delays are due to the Cirrus chip needed to decode the new audio codecs properly. It gets tied to HDMI because of that.

The issues with the CS497xx chips are on a variety of levels, and while you are correct that they are tied to data streams that are delivered in via HDMI, the HDMI connection, itself, is not part of the problem.

I saw the Onkyo 805 today for $650 shipped...

...getting tough waiting...

Can anyone from management let us know SOMETHING else? I understand the need for some confidentiality, and i know "its coming", but I fear that the complete blackout of info is making some people look elsewhere for a pre-pro. There is obvious demand, since Onkyo cant make the DTC 9.8 units fast enough, and the fact that many of the other manufacturers have half-baked implementations.

I'm willing to wait, but some info, please???

I wouldn't count on information, for two reasons. One, they were relatively forthcoming with the Model 950, and they got roasted for it because of delays that pushed the schedule back. Two, if the rumors of delays getting the DSP chip are accurate, they may be very uncomfortable offering any sort of schedule (see reason one for an explanation). I know it's not what any of us want to hear, and I'll bet that they'd love to be shipping HDMI v1.3 products right now, but there's likely some very good reasons.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if sales were suffering at this point, but truthfully there are only three options for looking elsewhere that will get you HDMI v1.1+: get a receiver with pre-amp outputs and HDMI v1.3 support (which can be had for at or a bit below the price of a 990), get an Integra 9.8 or Onkyo 885 (for more money than the 990), or get an Anthem AVM40/AVM50/D2 (a lot more than the 990, and HDMI v1.1 only).

I have to admit, I'm getting a bit restless myself. Why, I'm not sure. I have my HD-XA2 connected via the analog 7.1 and it's fantastic. However, the 4x2 HDMI matrix switching capability of the Onkyo PRSC885P is very appealing. I would love to reduce my cable count. And I'm a bit intrigued by the Audessy stuff.

Trying to hang on for the new Outlaw...getting tough though.

Actually the Onkyo TX-SR705, 805, 875, NR905, and PR-SC885P all have HDMI 1.3 with pre-outs with all the new codecs.

The 705, 805, 875, and 905 are four of the receivers I was thinking of with my first statement ("get a receiver with pre-amp outputs and HDMI v1.3 support"); there are some Denons available now that also fall into that category, I beleive. My main point was that the PR-SC885P and its cousin the Integra 9.8 are the only processors I've heard about that are v1.3. There are a few HDMI v1.1 processors available, but they are fairly well removed from Outlaw's price range.

Actually Rotel and NAD both make HDMI audio processors (no decoding) for around two grand.

I wonder if Outlaw could post a picture, similar to what S.N. did. I know looks are n't everything but it would sure eliminate that part of our curiosity.

Yes the new Outlaw Receivers, and Pre-Pro are HDMI 1.3 units without the next gen decoding. Surprisingly NAD made these units Modular just so the decoding board could be pulled and replaced with the new board when it becomes available. The upgradability of these new NADs would be awesom to see Outlaw do the same.

Is anyone else hearing of a June release window for this?

What is your source for this? Everything they've said to date points to having ALL of the next gen codecs. Otherwise, why bother? In fact, the delay they have talked about due to chip supplier seems to specifically invovle something needed to get the new codecs.

I haven't heard any windows at all, June or otherwise...
Good point, PodBoy. The only information that I've seen has been Outlaw's October "double down" newsletter, where the specifically stated that their next gen gear would be HDMI v1.3 and would have all of the new decoders. After all, why else have HDMI v1.3?

I agree with PodBoy. If there is no support for the new audio codecs, what's the point, but I don't recall seeing anything from the Outlaws that indicates they aren't looking to the future.

I'm sorry I put "Outlaw Receivers," when I was talking about the new NAD receivers and Pre-Pro.

Which all don't have NextGen Audio decoding but are HDMI 1.3 compliant. The units are modular and the nextgen decoding board is supposed to be availabe in August now according to a NAD rep.

This is the same I'm hearing the new Sherwood Newcastle P-972 (their replacement for the P965).

If Outlaw is using Etronics again, then I'd expect the unit to be out before the P-972. So July?

Is there any update on the Cirrus chip that will go into the next gen pre-pros and receiver? Is it out of sampling and into production yet? Has any deliveries be made to the the CE manufactureres?

I totally understand Outlaw not pre-releasing information on their forthcoming HD receiver, but I'd sure like to know an estimated release date.

I'm planning on upgrading my father's home theatre with a new projector and in the process would like to go strait to HD across the board.

We currently have a receiver running his MK-S150 system and I'd like to use a pre/pro combo like I have. I figured whatever next generation preprocessor Outlaw comes out with and the model 7700 amp. The only hesitation I have is the lack of THX support, but I'm sure that's do to prohibitive licensing expenses (is it really worth the extra cost). However, THX would be a nice "option."

So I hope they announce something in the near future, because I've enjoyed my Outlaw experience and firmly believe they add a ton value for the price, but I'd like to get something by summer time.

Retep wrote:

The only hesitation I have is the lack of THX support, but I'm sure that's do to prohibitive licensing expenses (is it really worth the extra cost). However, THX would be a nice "option."

I don't think others will disagree with the following: THX was (maybe) important back then, when....

Now it is not. Not for HT. Maybe maybe in movie theaters...though I don't know. All the formats that I have seen on Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are Dolby-D, DTS, PCM (stereo digital) and some new ones coming out.

So I think not needed.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen many home movies with THX. I think I mainly have a bug in my butt because the speakers are THX certified and I think it would be cool to have a fully THX system. But then if there's no content, what's the point.

Retep wrote:

But then if there's no content, what's the point.

I don't really know if there is no content for sure.
I just haven't noticed any, nor have I missed it, having dts and DD and others available.

I have two outlaw systems:two 990s, a 7700 and an older 755. I'm a "happy camper" without THX.

I second nfaguys' take on this: THX was valuable at one time, but the benefits today are much reduced - especially considering the price premium that would be associated with it.
THX doesn't have "content" as far as home theater users are concerned - even THX-certified titles don't include any different data, they just have been through an evaluation process designed to verify audio and video quality. THX certification of surround processors does include some additional processing modes, but that operates the same was as Pro Logic II/IIx or Logic7 does - applied downstream of basic Dolby Digital or DTS decoding.
If you have THX certified speakers, that tells you where to set your crossover: 80Hz. That's about as much synergy as you'll get between processor (THX or otherwise) and THX speakers.

We now have a timeframe for the Cirrus 49700 (audio DSP) delivery - early April.

http://emotivalounge.proboards54.com/ind...ge=1#1205273399

Knowing the Outlaws, they will be more conservative with their time frame (to allow for more testing). I would not expect the 970 replacement before August ... the 990 replacement, even later.

Two months to go from receiving first samples to shipping hardware to customers sounds pretty optimistic. If the chips ship to manufacturers in April, I would be impressed to see anyone get the chip integrated into a design and thoroughly tested before July (assuming there were no major problems encountered and they'd somehow debugged everything else already - something that is difficult for small manufacturers to do because they can't do external testing with a DSP-less product), at which point you still have to manufacture and bring hardware state-side. That may just be my prior experience with delivery dates, though (speaking not of any specific company, but in general - I've seen delays from Outlaw, OPPO, Yamaha, Sherwood, AV123, and so on and so on).

Emotiva is currently saying June. I'll be VERY surprised if they can get it to customer houses before the end of July...

As of now, they have a prototype (using CS 49500) that is running fine. It has an AMAZING feature set for that price. Of course, the prototype cannot do D THD and DTS MA decoding natively.

I am sure that a LOT of things need to be done when you replace that chip with the CS49700. I just don't see that happening in so short a time.

I have no idea where Outlaw is with their processor(s). Hence, the forecast of August as the EARLIEST delivery date. Hopefully, the Outlaws will put us out of misery and come up with a rough release date (based on April chip delivery)...

That was almost exactly my initial reaction as well. No matter how stable other portions of the product are, too much has to pass through the DSP to just slap it in and crank up the production lines. Heck, I had a beta sample of the 983H in my equipment rack for over three months, and the hardware on that was finalized for at least two of those months. Sure, there's a greater pressure to get to completion, but there's always plenty of pressure in that regard. I sincerely hope that we can start seeing 49700-based products on the market by early August (if not sooner), but I'm not going to count on it.

All,
Besides the basic chips (DSP,etc.), test, design, etc... the manufacture must have all of the parts required lined up plus boards for the parts to go on.
Not to mention specifications - especial for any new items - electrically, physically, measurement limits, etc.....

I would think there would be dependence on how lean Outlaws process flows - the entire path.
There is also Customs requirement that adds to the time frame.....

If they are going to use the platform that Sherwood plans on using, then July/August is likely.

SN R-972 went from Jan 07 announcement of a Aug 07 release, to Jan 08 release to now a June 08 release.

SN is notorious for being very late on their releases. I would not expect the R-972 before Dec 08. Their pre-pro would take even longer as it add a few more "features".

Seeing as there is a good chance that the 972 is using the 49700, I think that could easily be a significant contributor to the Sherwood delays - hasn't Emotiva's processor had some similar delays (December 07 to April 08 to June 08)?

I'm looking forward to Outlaw making an announcement.

I hope the update the look. I like the look of the RR 2150. I think a retro look with a modern receiver would be cool.

Is that really retro? I mean were is the reverb and quadraphonic selection?

Lets keep this based on fact vs pessimism:

1. SN and many others developed "Next Gen," receivers and pre-pros. They designed these around a "3 chip," solution bypassing the fact that the power currently wasn't there for NextGen codecs.

2. Onkyo and Denon amongst others released "3 chip," solutions built for them by SN. During this process SN realized the cheating was actually detrimental to the codec.

3. SN and many others delayed their NextGen receivers and pre-pros waiting for a chip to be released. This chip was promised to them as early as October 2007.

That chip is the 49700 from Cirrus. The delays on this chip have cause every company that cares about sound quality to WAIT. October moved to January, then monthly got delayed. Chips are supposed to ship this week according to Cirrus.

So once the manufacturers get the real chips and testing is complete production will start. I'm sure in June the SN 872 will be shipping with a May Production stamp on it. The 972 has Reon and other things that I think will delay this unit until July (but they promise May/June).

The reason isn't SN in this case (as it has been much in the past). The problem has been Cirrus. NAD was forced to release their Receivers and Pre-Pros WITHOUT the chip and they didn't use the "3 chip," solution. Instead they made the units modular so the boards could be swapped out this summer.

Arcam, Anthem, NAD, Sherwood Newcastle, B&K, & Krell are just a few companies I know for a fact that have NextGen solutions in R&D waiting to be moved to production just from the lack of this chip.

If the chip really ships this week then this summer we will have MULTIPLE high end solutions to choose from. Receivers will likely go straight into production. Pre-Pros will likely not be out until after CEDIA. They may well ship the weeks following CEDIA after official product announcements at CEDIA.

SN has their Pre-Pro planned to be unveiled officially now at CEDIA with shipment immediately after announcement.

So I think the Outlaw unit may well be BEFORE that. Since that it how SN' parent company makes their money: as an OEM.

Did I read that right "2. Onkyo and Denon amongst others released "3 chip," solutions built for them by SN. During this process SN realized the cheating was actually detrimental to the codec." Sherwood Newcastle (Eastech or Etronics I think) builds for Onkyo and Denon? Also I thought Onkyo and Denon were using a Texas Instrument Chip (Not that I profess to know that much about chipsets!)

I don't know who builds for Onkyo and Denon/Marantz, but I do know that Onkyo has been using a TI solution (three separate chips in most of their products, although I think the entry-level HDMI receiver just uses one). I think that Yamaha is doing the same, but Denon is using another manufacturer for their units (Analog Devices).

Etronics builds the Receivers not the chips. They all seem to be using "3 chip," solutions except for some really inexpensive models which use 1 chip.

I wonder if it's possible or feasible to use a cell processor in a pre-pro. Seems like it would make for one hell of a brain. I know it can do the audio, but not sure about the video.

It's probably possible, assuming they succeed in adding DTS-HD MA decoding support to it, but I don't know how cost effective it is or how much extra programming would be required when compared to using a purpose-built DSP chip.

I'm sure cost is a big factor, but it would be a robust single chip solution. I know they've planned on releasing TV's with the chip, so the cost has to come down considerably for that to happen. However a chip like that would allow for enormous flexibility in product design and future upgrades.

True enough. It'd be particularly interesting if it could serve as both an audio processor (a la the Cirrus 49700) and a video processor (a la the Reon or similar). With some canned software written as a basis for those functions (Dolby and DTS decoding already certified, bass management structures, some basic video processing options, and so forth), it could be a nice compact solution. For that matter, if you look at what the PS3's doing with it, you could even build a media client into the receiver - just slap in ethernet support and cook up your own UI on the underlying code. Maybe now that Toshiba's stepped away from HD players and is taking over more of the Cell production from their original joint venture with Sony, they'll try to develop something along these lines - I doubt many manufacturers would be interested in taking the chip by itself and trying to build the software from scratch, but if they had some of those central building blocks (similar to what companies like TI and Cirrus provide with their DSP chips and companies like Genesis, Silicon Optix, and ABT provide with their video processors) it could quite probably find a market. There'd still be a lot of other things to consider, but if the Cell can handle all of those separate jobs at once (audio processor, video processor, possibly also media client) then it would be a real possibility. I wonder if it could also run EQ solutions such as Audyssey MultEQ or Trinnov?

This video of the cell processor in a tv is quite interesting. I image it would be a crazy workhouse in a preprocessor.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/159896.html

They say it can stream 6 HD video's at once.

What do you mean by "the power currently wasn't there for NextGen codecs"? Are you saying that Onkyo and Denon receivers cannot decode next generation codecs?

Also, how were Onkyo and Denon "cheating"? That is, what were they doing that was "detrimental to the codec"?

Thanx

Yeah, I'd like to know this as well. I don't even understand the '3 chip vs 1 chip' thing. What is it exactly those 'high-end' manufacturers are waiting for that would make a significant different in the quality of the equipment? (Well I understand they're waiting on a chip, I guess the question is what does this new chip do that the current ones don't? As sdurani points out, there are plenty of receivers out there that decode dts-hd ma and dolby truehd.)

I can't answer the question that Sanjay asks (although I'd also be interested to see the answer), but I may be able to help with this one:
The chip that a lot of manufacturers have been waiting for (the Cirrus 49700) does basically the exact same things that the TI Aureus chips do. The only difference is that it does it by itself - as a single chip - where most of the TI implementations are using three chips to perform the same processing. As for why they are waiting, well, that's probably a source of much consternation for more than one company: at some point, probably back in 2006 at the latest, those companies decided to base their designs on the Cirrus hardware instead of the TI hardware. The Cirrus was reportedly due to be available probably a year ago, if not earlier than that. As they developed the rest of the hardware and the supporting software for their products, the 49700 has apparently experienced a series of delays, leaving them with one big piece of the puzzle missing - and a piece that is central enough to enough different things that swapping it out would be costly and time-consuming.

I see - but then what difference does it make in the end? It sounds as if the Cirrus chip is a more elegant solution - fine, but should I care? (I don't know, and I'm really asking; should I? )

In theory, there shouldn't be a difference between whether a single Cirrus chip decodes and processes the audio or whether a trio of TI chips do it - the Dolby and DTS decoding should adhere to the respective standards, and the other common audio processing should be done properly either way. There's a possibility that one option will offer some feature that the other doesn't (things like equalization and room correction, for example, take a fair bit of CPU muscle to do), but I don't know of any specific examples either way in this regard - receivers using the three-chip TI solution offer Audyssey MultEQ and I've read a bit about a Cirrus-based Sherwood product that will include Trinnov's competitor to MultEQ, but I don't know if either of those examples rely solely on the DSP chip or if there's additional supporting hardware involved.

To directly answer the question "should you care" I'll say this much: I would not base a buying decision solely on which DSP chip is used in a receiver or processor, unless the chip in question (and thus the receover in question) was unable to support features that I wanted.

Thanks Gonk that makes sense and that's more or less what I would have guessed. I'd still like lotus to explain his 'cheating' comments though.

Aside from Trinnov, I think another example might be Dolby Volume. It was demonstrated at CES, and so far none of the Motorola or TI chips have it.

As DSP power increases, it's interesting to see what problems manufacturers are able to tackle. First they used DSPs to deal with legacy content in a market where surround had become popular (surround processing). Then it was to deal with unwanted contributions from the listening environment (room correction/EQ). Now they're finally dealing with how our human hearing fails to remain consistent as levels are altered (Dolby Volume, THX Loudness Plus, Audyssey Dynamic Volume/Dynamic EQ).

I forgot about Dolby Volume - what I've read about it sounds quite interesting, but it is still basically MIA on the current receivers and processors. Be curious to see if the 49700 can support it...

Okay, enough already. Outlaw has to have some Idea when this creature will be showing signs of turning up. Give me a sign as in month and year when you think you might be able to at least see this thing.
Gettin Grumpy, Enough already come on Outlaw.

Glenee