Assuming Outlaws are working on a next generation pre/pro, what improvements would you guys/gals expect it have over the 950?

I have been looking at the pre/pros in the over $2,000 price range. I do not see much out there that offers the features the Outlaw 950 does that justifies the more than double the price. So if there is a big brother to the 950, I was wondering what improvements or features it would have? Would these features outclass the Anthems, B & Ks, Krells, Aragons, Lexicons, Fosgates etc?

Improved bass management for multichannel?
Equilization/notch filtering?
Storable settings for each input?
Better remote?
Faceplate/volume knob options?
Logic 7 license from Lexicon?
Ultra II?
Balanced outputs?
Hydroplasmatic neural DACs?

Or could there be a "snob factor" involved? Or could it possible be appearance. Personally, I think the Aragon Stage One is the coolest looking unit out there.

How about:
- support the new digital connection to DVD-A and SACD.
- Digital AM/FM tuner

I think the biggest bang for the buck, without jacking up the cost could be:
1)Adjustable settings for each input.
2)Maybe a headphone jack.

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JT

- Automation port[s], preferably 100/TX.
- No remote option - a lot of folks just toss it anyway.
- Drop the tuner
- Digital input for DVD-A/SACD (which means it won't ship for a while)
- Either eliminate or fix the analog bass management stuff - as it is it's worse than nothing.
- More aux triggers, with extremely flexible on and off rules.

This topic has been moved to the "New Product Suggestions Forum"

Scott

More zones!

I have to ask: do people really use the multizone function on their recievers or pre/pros? In my limited experience with HT stuff I have never heard this as being an important feature for anybody. I would imagine it is important to the few who use it but it is worth making us who would buy the new pre/pro actually pay for it.

AND definitely no tuner. This falls under the same cost-benefit trade off as multi-zone. It seems that those who actually use a tuner really want a good one that would most likely be better served up as a separate component.

sorry if these issues have been discussed elsewhere but i figure the more voices the better on this.

I think we should ask for a "modular" approach to a pre-pro.

I would envision a pre-pro that oriented itself around a high resolution TFT (16x9 touch screen). Using an aesthetic bilateral set of hard buttons/knobs for the most predictable and used functions (80/20 rule). The touch screen can accomodate the remaining - as well as be updatable with firmware updates.

The hard buttons would be back iluminated and vary in intensity(and off!). Only the relevent hard buttons would illuminate based on the mode or source selected. With the new and cheap LED's, you can even provide a full range color option!!! Having source based buttons back illuminated would make access easier when the room lights are dim as well as provide a quick visual cue to relevent buttons based on the mode you are in.

Definitley spend money on a good Industrial design team!!! Or have optional faceplates - which would require some easy and universal mounting brackets.

Internally, equip the unit with modular card bays that can accomodate all the options in todays terms of features - then allow for possibly 2 or 3 additional bays for expansion. This will provide some headroom for the future.

Definitely add an OS (Palm or any embedded OS - maybe a realtime OS) and memory (upgradable) to the unit (card based as well) so that you can program it to interact with the TFT and cards used.

The programable nature and touch screen TFT would accomodate card updates, allow for neat features, and provide a level of customization limited only by the imagination.

For example, the base unit will come only with the OS/memory card and the TFT. Then, you order the cards you want - 1)Tuner card, 2) Surround DTS/DD card, 3) Music DVD-A / SACD card , 4)Ethernet client/server access to any storage array of mp4's, etc. When you plug the cards in, the OS will recognize the cards, its feature and then display any relevant features ... Then later, if you decide you want the new "digital AM/FM and RDS tuner card" or even a phono card you simply add or replace. Or, even better, niche oriented cards that can provide realtime calibration and corrections based on your speakers, room characteristics and listening preferences.

One can begin to realize the potential such an approach can have by the division of costs, flexibility, feature requests due to the incremental and market driven card designs... like DVI switching or native rate conversions (all video output at 720p or 1080i)... hmmmm

The TFT can display a DVD-A menu selection without using a monitor. Or provide feedback from the source...

The point with a modular card based system and a unit with an OS, is that now, you pay for a base system that can do anything you want today - and "only" the things you want.

But, more importantly, this approach will also allow someone to purchase the unit they want today - and tomorrow - by slowly adding the features that they decide they need.

Even better, one can take comfort in knowing that you can add the features you didn't realize you needed, or that were not around when you bought the system.

This would be a paradigm shift for shure... and potentially serve Outlaw very well marketwise.



[This message has been edited by trancethereal (edited February 21, 2003).]

Hmm, no thanks... I really don't want an LCD or other display in my equipment rack. I'd much rather use my TV for displaying and have a minimalist 2-line character display on the front of the unit, at most. Touch screens belong on the optional remote, not on the unit face where they just clutter the rack and never get used. Also, no embedded PalmOS; I don't want this thing crashing as much as my computer does. And card bays almost always add more cost than worth.

If you want more specialization and expandability, I'd rather see it done by chaining devices together, perhaps with fire wire. Need more analog inputs? Buy an eight-channel ADC and use it as for stereo pairs. Want balanced outputs? Get a six channel balanced DAC. Want 7.1 with stereo subs? Buy a second DAC. The pre/pro becomes a processor, and just takes digital data from an input side and sends it to the output side. Give it enough extra MIPS and a flashable ROM for future decoding formats.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I think you miss the point on the TFT (touch screen) -

Many would use it for DVD-A (audio) so that they do not have to turn on their monitor just to navigate the disk... this is just one reason for a TFT - which may explain their growing popularity.

But the ability to use it to accomodate future "virtual" buttons is another benefit. It can always be turned off - and having such a multi-function display would actually reduce clutter - not add to it.

Having it on an optional remote would be great - but then that would require a two-way communicative wireless signal... while a cool idea, the cost/performance ratio may fall outside an acceptable range. I find myself scratching my heading thinking "if it is good to have it on a remote, why wouldn't it be equally or preferred to have it on the unit itself - I would hate to either loose the remote or have it break..."

Palm OS is relatively stable - embeded linux can be even more stable since you will only load what is necessary. There are a number of other embeded OS that have a proven track record unlike your computer. I think you may be confusing your Win98 (my assumption) performance and reliabity with what would be used or recommended.

While I can appreciate the "percieved" simplicity in daisy-chaining devices to achieve specialization... how does such an approach "reduce clutter", "cost", or "complexity"? Surely the pre-pro you envision for such an approach must be designed to handled all the inputs and outputs of all these devices - forcing you to build in a lot of "extras" like inputs and outputs to accomodate a future need (and then hope that you guessed right!). I can't imagine the wiring mess...

Being able to simply swap out an outdated cardslot component with an updated replacement would itself contain any necessary connections, funtionality, and the unexpected while being much cheaper since you are not buying the entire box (pre-pro) again... just the raw module. The controls, external buttons, power, and remote would have been part of your original purchase. The OS would be able to reconfigure the TFT to then provide any new "virtual" buttons and options.

Again - the beauty of a cardslot based system would mean that both of us could use the same base unit - but if I was happy with 5.1 and you wanted 7.2 - the division and economies of scale work for both of us - the base pre-pro is cheaper - you get the ability to upgrade and I get the ability to purchase at a level that fits my needs.

And having enough "MIPS" seems eerily like a metric for measuring processing power of a processor when working with an OS... and to update a "ROM" seems equally like the same benefit afforded a good OS.

Regarding embedded sytems: eCOS, QNX, VxWorks and others are solid choices, as well as other, newer entries like WinCE, Linux, etc.

Embedded computers don't suffer the reliability issues other systems sometimes do - when was the last time your microwave 'crashed'?

Open-architecture digital FireWire inputs that support all digital audio bitstreams (3 or more). Firewire outputs too.

6 coaxial, 4 toslink digital inputs. Coaxial and toslink digital outputs too.

8 channel analog input with FULL analog bypass. High bandwidth, straight wire design to volume control. What should have been on the Model 950 too.

Full digital bass management (separate slopes and cross-overs for each channel), time delay (for all channels including subs), and digital DSP functions like treble/bass and/or full parametric equalizer that operate in both pure DSD and 24 bit/192 kHz PCM modes (depending on the bitstream being manipulated) so the audio fidelity stays untouched even while adding audio tweaks on top of the pure digital source. This is something that most pre-amp companies overlook.

I would work with Sony & Philips to implement pure DSD processing and DSP modes correctly.

Go overboard on processing, eprom, and memory power so that user software and format upgrades can be implemented for some time to come without worrying about running out of space or MIPs allocations.

Full, pro-grade upsampling of all PCM signals (including all DTS, DTS 96/24, and Dolby Digital bitstreams converted to PCM after decoding) to 24 bit/192 kHz for optimal DAC performance. DSD bitstreams are left untouched at all times.

Two top of the line Burr-Brown DSD/24-192 (or higher) PCM DAC's (with pure DSD conversion mode) per channel in dual differential mode to lower noise and increase processing power.

DSD and PCM bitstream master clocks for anti-jitter.

Full, pro-grade balanced power supply and circuitry throughout. Designed by Balanced Audio Technology (BAT). Pro-grade, balanced XLR inputs and outputs for all channels.

Modular, swappable, upgradeable circuitry boards. This has been a real benefit to companies like Meridian and Anthem so that their products roll with most any punches that come in the future, and their customers are not left in the cold due to future feature sets.

12 channel outputs with assignable and fully configurable channel allocations. Similar idea to the Lexicon MC-12 and Parasound Halo C1. With processing chips that handle a full 12 channels you are set for practically anything in the future. Looking at a current trend in DVD-Audio and SACD discs, for example, the center and/or subwoofer channels are sometimes allocated for side channels or even height channels. With user assignable channel outputs, you don't have to re-wire everything every time you put in a different audio mix. Some home theater designers also like to have multiple side surround speakers and/or duplicate the sounds from the surround channels (in 5.1 and 7.1 modes) in multiple arrays depending upon the room size. You are also ready for whatever HD-DVD or Blu-Ray has in store for us with newer, and more sophisticated surround formats.

Full stereo subwoofer output capable (one stereo pair for front channels, and one stereo pair for surrounds). Separate LFE channel output if wanted.

Supports all current formats: DTS, DTS-ES Discrete & Matrix 6.1, DTS 96/24, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby ProLogic II, HDCD, Circle Surround, and fully implemented 7.1 Logic7 (either by licensing the exact product from Harmon International or by creating your own, superior product that can create stereo side and rear channels from multiple sources-- I'm not talking about Cirrus Extra Surround as it's not as good and doesn't produce stereo back channels).

No DSP modes like HALL, STADIUM, etc. Totally unnecessary.

Separate power supplies for digital and analog circuits. Totally isolated and noise free parts.

Copper shielded.

No built-in tuner or LCD screen (something more to break and cause interference problems, and it would allow money to go to improved internal guts). A separate monitor output for mini, rack mountable digital video panel (as an optional accessory and for any third party mini monitor). And one monitor output for on-screen display only.

In fact, I would suggest having a completely separate video switcher in order to keep these circuits completely isolated, and increase the usable space on the back of the pre-amp for more inputs/outputs (and the full array of fully balanced I/O's). That would also allow more of the design budget to go towards these premium audio features I've discussed. Also, with any future video switcher you have to deal with the issue of DVI-D/HDMI/HDCP and Firewire switching along with the current slate of analog inputs and outputs. It keeps it as an optional product and keeps the consumers' cost down too. A win-win situation for everybody.

User software upgradeable.

Data port for Crestron and other home automation type devices.

Large, easy to read display panel.

Illuminated, high quality buttons and switches.

Removable, thick gauge IEC, grounded power cord.

Plus, any number of user interface improvements and suggestions others have mentioned on this board that other companies have in their products (like Anthem, Krell, Lexicon, TAG, etc.).

Dan

[This message has been edited by Dan Hitchman (edited April 24, 2003).]

wOw, Pro, all the way, but at what price?
$7,000?

If you keep the video side out of it and leave only a monitor out for on-screen display (which could be hooked to an outboard video switcher and/or rack mount display) you substantially lower production costs that could be used for the premium parts and features listed above. Also, having no tuner would help.

This could be a Lexicon MC-12 without the video with even better audio quality (Lexicon's have not been known for their audiophile sound; mainly their cool features), and internal DSD decoding and Firewire inputs/outputs. That would sure make the industry sit up and take notice.

I'd say ~$3,800 - $4,000 for something that's superior in all aspects to an Anthem or Krell or TAG pre-amp (better parts, better sonics due to using premium Burr-Brown DAC's and better implementation, more features, pure balanced from stem to stern, internal DVD-Audio and SACD decoding that compromises neither format, lower noise, wider dynamic range, etc.).

It can be done, especially without the tremendous dealer overhead that really pumps up the price of these over-blown, specialized PCs (which is all a lot of these pre-amps are nowadays).

I would also suggest hiring a much more quality conscious builder than Eastech. I'd even suggest bringing the manufacturing back to the U.S.A. like Outlaw's amps. Keeping something this sophisticated close to home works a lot better than dealing with an overseas plant.

Dan

[This message has been edited by Dan Hitchman (edited April 25, 2003).]

I agree with Dan...

Get rid of all video switching, with HDTV slowly moving into the mainstream, people generally will have something else handle scaling / switching....

[This message has been edited by Unferth (edited April 24, 2003).]

My next pre/pro will have component video switching for sat/cable box, X-Box, DVD player, D-VHS VCR, and a spare. Also need more digital audio inputs for above. Also need 7.1 analog input for my Revolution sound card in HTPC. Seprate LFE out for Buttkicker and subwoofer with seperate crossover settings. Upconversion of composite and S-Video to component video out.
Could do with fewer composite video inputs.
DVI switching is probably necessary for future proofing.
My credit card is ready.


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John

With my Samsung DLP tv arriving next week, suddenly the need for DVI has become a priority. There is already a DVD player on the market using DVI, plus HDTV box and computer my next pre/pro will have to have DVI capability.

I lilke the modular approach. That way, I can select the audiophile resistors, capacitors and DSPs that I prefere. And when something else, in a month or two, is the darling of the audiophile high-end fashion world, I can upgrade these components again.

Seriously, some modularity would be nice so that meaningful upgrades for a generation or two could be accomodated such as a new version of dolby or dts digital, more channels, better DSP or whatever.

While the "gee-wiz" factor of a built-in LCD diplay is appealing, the cost $$$-wise and front panel real-estate -ise may be prohibitive except for a high-end priced pre-pro.

What may be an acceptable compromise is the inclusion of, in addition to the typical video output to a TV type monitor, a computer type video output, of somewhere from 800x600 to 1280x1024 pixels resolution, so that an external LCD (or crt) monitor can be used. The ability to power down any video circuitry should be included.

Having digital high-rez inputs for SACD and DVD-A would be nice. I wonder what the cost would be for suitable, multiple channels of DACs and associated high quality analog electronics that would do justice to the potenital of SACD and DVD-A wold be. It would not be a trivial expense to better the performance of high quality SACD or DVD-A player.

I would really like to have multiple 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 or 8.1 analog inputs with the option of bypassing all digital processing circuitry and only passing through a volume control on the way to the outputs.

Pleeeeze, no Micro$oft operating sytem. I do not want my pre-pro to lockup, restart, crash, or be hacked into by first graders on their cell phones.

I wanna ...

Paul



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the 1derful1

I still think that a separate broadcast quality video switcher with DVI-D/HDMI & HDCP, Firewire IEEE 1394b, component analog, S-Video, and composite support would be better than having it built-in to the surround audio processor. There are too many variables right now with copy protection and it could be easily upgraded or swapped out instead of having to buy a whole new A/V pre-amp if the digital video protocols change.

A video switching link from the surround pre-amp to this switcher would be available so they can talk back and forth, however the cost savings to Outlaw Audio and to us would be enormous. Which would allow more money to be spent on the premium audio goods we've talked about so far.

Modular construction with audiophile grade components for consumer hardware and software upgrading would be ideal too.

Dan

"I would also suggest hiring a much more quality conscious builder than Eastech. I'd even suggest bringing the manufacturing back to the U.S.A. like Outlaw's amps. Keeping something this sophisticated close to home works a lot better than dealing with an overseas plant."

I second Dan's recommendation. The other advantage would be to be to have the design authority of the product.

Wait, you're saying that Krell makes audiophile surround processors and Lexicon does not?



Jeff

Just a quick word of warning for you folks: for every licensed technology (e.g., THX, DPLII, Logic 7, DTS ES Discrete, etc.) that Outlaw adds to its product, expect a jump in price. Licensing most technologies is far from free.

Therefore, you need to carefully consider cost vs. features. If you're going to get an Outlaw with all the features and functionality of a MC-12, why not just get an MC-12?

Outlaw's main strength has always been the middle-market: better quality than the mass-produced pieces of garbage, much less expensive than the high-end. It's this niche, the extremely good value-for-the-dollar niche, that Outlaw excels in. To attack other niches might spread Outlaw too thin.

Jeff

I thought part of the Outlaw plan was to create products as good or better than the competition and set the price lower due to their web-based sales design.

Or am I wrong...?

Something that beats the Version 2 Anthem AVM-20 in upgradeability, features (built in pure DSD and high rez PCM decoding, FireWire, etc.), and audio quality (using the best dual differential Burr-Brown DACs and pure balanced design), but for less would be A-OK in my book. By creating a hardware/software modular audio-only music/movie processor, they could do this easily.

Dan

[This message has been edited by Dan Hitchman (edited June 25, 2003).]

Could Outlaw develop something similar to Pioneer's MAACC(sp?)?
Or would this not be something worthwhile?
I have heard nothing but high praise about it from everyone who has used it.
What do you think?

I like the modular card approach.

Complete bass banagement in all modes

Separate level control (and memory of it) for each input.

Upgraded finish option (I'll pay a little more for a nicer looking unit but not much)

Digital interface for high rez

No THX, No balanced outputs, no tuner standard (card options as above)

Please no display. I understand the advantage in some ways but not worth it.

New logo

Any rumblings about whether Outlaw is making progress on a new pre/pro? Or if in fact there is one on the drawing board?

Pre/pros street prices seem to be coming down, which may be directly related to the 950 platform.

I would be very interesting to see what Outlaw can do if with a "high end" pro/pro.

From what we've been told in the past, there has been no change to the original plan to produce a "big brother" to the 950, but based on the development time involved in the 950 and other pre/pros lately (and Outlaw's newfound and well-earned wariness of discussing new products too early in the development process) I'd expect it to be at least another year or so before we hear anything new about it from Outlaw.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

The best suggestion I can think of is an easily upgradable architecture for both software and hardware. Using the same format as a Bolder amp, plug in cards for current and or empty slots, firewire input or USB for net upgrades. Many of us do this with computers already. With this kind of construction you and pick the upgrades you want to pay for, and can start with a base model that has the 950 feature set.

Well Gonk,

Since I am sure you have the inside track, I guess I will wait on buying the Lexicon and hold out for another year or so until "big brother" arrives.

As the price for a used MC-8 comes down, it is going to be hard to wait.

Let alone the ridiculously low price of a used MC-1!

Jeff

$1,500 right now on Ebay($5,995 new?)!!
Item number: 3043689781. I would try to get it, but I can't afford it right now (if ever).

Ooh, don't assume any sort of inside track on my part here. I'm guessing on this one just like the rest of us. And from what I hear about the MC-8, if you find one that you and your pocket book can agree on, it would probably be worthwhile to get one.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Have a Loudness button - to increase the high treble and low bass at low to medium listening levels. My last 2 processors / receivers had it, and when listening to CDs through the Home Theatre it makes a favorable improvement.

I agree with the idea of a "loudness" button....Yamaha had a unique "continuously variable loudness compensation" on their old Pre-Amps (I have the CX-2, a great Pre Amp I am using just as a Phono Pre Amp now with my 950)...best loudness type control I have ever used.......It would work just fine on an Outlaw Pre Amp......

When I mentioned the "loudness" button on the Outlaw to Outlaw thread I had no idea it was going to show up on so many other threads. I agree, put the loudness button or variable dial in the big brother.

Just stopped by to visit and thought I would check out this post to see if anyone was talking about the Outlaw "BIG BROTHER" 950+ release dates. I really didnt think I would find anything but needed to check anyway. Just came across an MC-8 Used, $3600 on Ebay,good value. The 950 has been such a bargain and quality value for me that I just keep my fingers crossed Outlaw will come out with a top of the line replacement for about the same price as a good used Lexicon. Well that what I hope will happen. DOBEMAN

this is probably mentioned above, but i think outlaw would benefit from getting some thx certification on its product. being internet only i think it would make people more comfortable. i realize it would probably add a little cost and does not mean one product is better than another, but it would give a new buyer some more confidence....

Yes! You are right Curegeorg, - It should have THX Certification. That would have to be a given for any second generation 950+ Since most everyone would expect the latest upgrades and best audio produce for the money, something like THX Certification would have to be standard issue.

In regards to THX certification, as far as its desireability is concerned, it depends on how much extra THX certification would end up raising the price to the purchaser.

If the cost increment is small (<$50), then THX certification is fine, otherwise, I'm not much interested.

Outlaw could make the 950's big brother meet whatever THX specs they wanted and advertise it as such and just skip the certification process (and not get the pretty THX certified logo on the front panel) and I would not mind.

Or they could make the new model significantly exceed THX specs and say "beyond THX!".

Paul

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the 1derful1

Nah, the THX logo is cool and all but I believe it is very expensive to license. If I could get $50 dollars off my next purchase I would probably take the discount. It didn't slow me down from purchasing the 950 in the first place.

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Stott

my point was that they could bring in a lot of customers that are on the fence, by getting a universally accpeted stamp of approval. saying something doesnt make it so, companies all the time are fudging their specs. i doubt that it costs $50 per piece to have a thx certification, some of the cost would be offset by the selling of more units anyway. there are other certificatons that a piece of electronics goes through, why not skip those too??? im sure that would save some money. i doubt that the new models will be less expensive than their predecessors anyway, but i hope they will be!

Like UL? Not really skippable. (look! new word!) Dolby/DTS certification & testing? Sort of essential for a home theater processor.

While it is true that THX would reassure some buyers, none of us know how much additional capital investment or (equally important) design time might be required to include THX processing and certification. If Outlaw is in a position to be able to include THX in some form without adding $50 to $100 in cost, sacrificing other features, or delaying the project launch, it would be a good decision to include it. But if THX would require them to raise the cost, eliminate some other desirable feature, and/or make the consumer wait an extra month or two for the product to reach market, it would be best to leave THX off. It's because of that possibility that several of us have suggested leaving THX on the "nice but not essential" list.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I would simply like to see a head to head shootout (by a 3rd party) of THX certified Pre/pros against the 950, and other non THX certified equipment. I'm sure the comparisons- both technical and audible would make for some good reading

I’ve been trying to figure the THX question out myself. What is it about THX certification that makes it the “end all” in home theater electronics? I have only one piece of THX equipment in my home theater at this time and it’s the cable from my receiver to my subwoofer…….lol. I only bought it because it was the only one long enough to reach where I wanted to place my sub Also if THX is the top of the line then why is it that many of the people here seem to think that the 950/770 combo is far better than any receiver? A top of the line Denon or Pioneer Elite that is THX Ultra 2 certified should be far better. Do separates make such a drastic difference that THX certification goes right out the window? Don’t get me wrong if I had the available funds I would have a 950/770 combo in my home as fast as they could get it here but I would just like to know what THX certified really means? Why is it so much better? I’m probably starting another war about separates being better than receivers (and vice versa) but I would like some opinions?

Lasher

At one time THX mattered. It doesn't matter any more. Although I think I would jump on a THX certified popcorn machine.

thx certifies that the product passes a certain series of tests that prove that it meets thx specs (which thx says are best). it is a way to validate what a manufacturer says it has and what it really has without having to take someones word for it. the knock against thx is that it adds cost and is not really necessary, because most equipment that is good, meets the specs but just chooses against the thx process to save $$$. thx in and of itself does not make any product better than a non thx one, but it does provide info as to the validity of a manufacturers claims... being an internet only company i think outlaw would see some more sales by adding something that makes most people more comfortable. i mean if you had two products that were identical, one thx certified and one not, wouldnt you buy the thx one just to be sure. the question is at what price would you not be willing to buy the thx one... separates vs receivers are an entirely different beast, but for exampe the denon 5803 is as good as most separates it just lacks some flexibility and appeal of saying i have separates. separates are interesting because they are sometimes upgradeable whereas a receiver hardly ever is, plus you could just buy a new processor keeping your old amp, instead of having to buy a whole new system with each advance. thx also adds some processing options which are typically done by other things as well, i.e. thx ex = dolby digital ex, etc. if i could demo an outlaw against some other product, the need for thx would drop away, but seeing as you have to get it, try it, and then pay to ship it back if you dont like it, thx cert. would make me a little more comfortable as to getting it in the first place. i dont own stock in outlaw or know any of them personally so i dont trust them anymore than any other company, that is why its nice to have a third partys opinion. price is probably what will dictate the choice, but id be willing to spend a LITTLE more for it.

I for one am glad that none of the Outlaw products have the THX certification because that would mean that I paid more money for a marketing gimmick. I trust the opinions posted in the saloon much more than I would the opinion of a company (THX) that sells a purely marketing product such as their certification. Outlaws products come with a return policy that lets you compare them with any other product for 30 days. What I'm saying is my 770 puts out 200 watts per channel (according to Outlaw whom i believe) with or without the THX certification and it costs less without it so why pay for it.

It seems that THX is more interested in certifying car stereos and computer speakers than in maintaining a lofty goal, which was the original intent. It does not take anything extrordinary to meet THX specs, in fact, some of their requirements I would say run contrary to what would produce the best sound. And speaking of sound, THX does not guarantee that the sound of a component will be any better than any average product out there - the ultimate sound quality rests with the equipment's designer, not THX.

It's worth noting that NO vacuum tube amplifier would meet THX specs, yet those amplifiers would in all likelihood sound better than a solid state amplifier that had THX's blessing. THX just certifies technical aspects - it says nothing about the ultimate listening quality, and we DO listen to our equipment rather than measure it!

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 02, 2003).]

you bunch of thx haters!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't hate THX, I just think it's days of relivance has passed - about the time they started "certifying" things like computer speakers, car stereos, and who knows what else. If everything gets certified, then certification means nothing.

it wouldnt mean nothing, it would merely mean that it is certified.

People have told me that I should be certified.

I don't think that anybody is willing to pay extra for it.

Paul

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the 1derful1

Certification by THX may not be important, after all they claim the Specs are the best, there may be others that disagree with THX's claim. However, I would like to see a review or test on Outlaw eauipment by a third party. I really do not care if the outlaw meets THX's standards or not, I would like to know if the Outlaw EQ meets Outlaw's Spec. I can then base my purchases on what is improtant to me, THX or not. I have not read any reviews where actual measurements were made and compared to Outlaw's spec. If such a review exists, please provide mw eith the link.

problem with that paratrooper is that who do you trust as a neutral third-party? i mean i read the reviews that a lot of places make, but that doesnt mean that i would trust them to be 100% accurate though. with most audio, just using the equipment tells you if its good or not, but i cant hear most specs to see if they are a little off or not. i dont care if thx certifies the product or someone else, but theres just not really any other certification.

I don't think there are many actual THX haters here on the forum (can't speak for everyone, so there are probably a couple floating around -- just human nature, right?). I do think that there are a number of people here who don't feel the need to invest in THX and are not convinced that THX is essential. The fact that some of those individuals are very knowledgeable forum regulars (soundhound, PJStiles) carries some weight with me personally, but even that should not negate the fact that there are people here who would like it. Hopefully Outlaw will leave THX in consideration for future products, even if it is not included on a "must have" list.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I measured the original 950 in my lab, and it failed in the noise category. This ultimately led to the "blue dot" 950 we have today, where this problem was fixed once and for all. It met all it's other specs.

I don't think you need to pick a "neutral" 3rd party to do objective tests on specifications - I was prepared to love the 950, but wasn't afraid to point out a fault in the unit. There are lengthy threads on this forum about these tests.

As for sound, the newer 950 (the current "blue dot") does sound a bit warmer than the original unit through it's internal DACs. The CD bypass passed my A/B tests for neutrality while playing 24 bit masters from my digital audio workstation, comparing directly from the workstation verses through the 950 by instaneous switching on a lab grade preamp/switcher.

It's commendable that Outlaw stuck through the lengthy process of tracking down the noise problem and fixing it right. They sent me a prototype of the new unit for me to test, and it passed.

I would trust a National Magazine like Home Theater, that published their test results. If they publish false information, I am sure the Outlaws and other would call their hand. Do you consider THX a third party, how can you trust them?

the key to my statement was neutral third-party. its good to know that you tested the 950 soundhound, but most people wont be able to do that for themselves. when it comes down to taking someones word, i guess that is where you draw the line; who do you believe? thats my whole point, having someone worth trusting to certify the product. imo thats what thx does...

I think everyone knows that but not everyone agrees that THX fills the bill of a neutral third party since they have a financial stake through the licensing fees. Also not evryone agrees (as Soundhound stated) that all aspects of the THX certification standard actually promote superior quality reproduction.

As for me, THX certification provides absolutely no reassurance of either sound or build quality since some of the THX certified audio components I have listened to are audibly underwhelming and have a less-than-awe-inspiring build quality. Therefore I am not willing to pay anything extra for what is to me a worthless certification.

its true that thx does not magically make something better. however i would always rather know if something is up to snuff, rather than wonder about it. as far as sound quality and use, etc. you can judge that from using a product. but as far as their honesty goes about accurately rating their specs, the only way is to test. most people do not have means to faithfully test a piece of electronics equipment. i must admit that i am very much into home audio and i would have to go somewhere to test anything other than if i like it. it would be great if someone could figure out exactly how much it costs to license a product under thx. maybe its not so much as you think. and while thx is out to turn a profit, then dont make money by just slapping a label on a product, they actually see if it meets certain criteria. ignorance is bliss, and if you dont know then maybe you would be happier, as for me id rather know everything.

This subject seems to be looking a little like a dead horse at the moment and we may want to set down our clubs soon, but I had a thought or two that may be worth adding.



Yeah, it'd be cool, but I doubt we mere mortals will ever know. Mainly because it is certain to be highly variable. How much does it cost (to draw a parallel to my business) to design a house, or an office building? Aside from the fact that THX most certainly does not have a price list for licensing of different components (subwoofer for $50,000; dipole surround speakers for $75,000; monoblock amp for $90,000; THX Ultra2 receiver for $200,000; ...) because it is too dependent on the circumstances of each product being tested, they also probably do not allow people to disclose prices or the average time required to run a product through the licensing process.

As for the idea of a "third party" verification of performance, I think it's actually a great idea, but I don't think a company like THX is the one to do it. THX got started as a way to dictate design methods to provide as consistent and predictable an environment as possible in movie theaters, and that's still their purpose in all of the numerous areas they have ventured into. If we want to be able to look at any piece of gear's rated specs (amplifier output, signal to noise ratios, speaker ratings and anechoic -3dB points, etc...) and know we can trust them, it would be best for the manufacturers to do what other industries have done and push for the establishment of a testing standard. Something similar to the way AMCA (Air Movement and Control Association) rates fans, or ASHRAE and ARI rate your house's air conditioning equipment, something that would provide a way to "bench test" electronics and speakers to verify that they meet the published specs. Call it the GET (Gunslinger Equipment Testing) seal of approval, if you like. It would include standards for testing different components (Standard 7 for amplifier power output testing, Standard 9 for preamp S/N testing, Standard VS1 for video switching circuit testing, Standard 0 for speaker testing). Then you could put a little "GET" stamp below the UL circle on the back and list the applicable standards tested to. It would need to be an independent organization, probably under the oversight of an organization or organizations similar to ASME (the guys who, among other things, verify that pressure vessels won't go "boom") or IEEE. (In fact, IEEE might be a pretty good candidate for overseeing at least some of these standards -- not really for speakers, but for the electronic side, and I suspect that a lot of the electrical and electronic engineers involved in designing this stuff are already members.) The testing would be based on publicly available guidelines and could be carried out much like UL certification takes place today. It would add some time and cost to the design process, but likely not as much as THX -- especially since it would be so much more widespread, allowing manufacturers to streamline the testing process.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

[This message has been edited by gonk (edited December 09, 2003).]

gonk that is an ingenius idea. i would certainly go for that more than for thx, alas only if the world were perfect and all my wishes would come true...

It is not that I remain ignorant about information but I wish to know what the DIFFERENCE is between components. THX certification tells me what is similar for different brands of components not how they differ. So if ignoring what to me is a useless standard is ignorant, then color me blissful

P.S. Great idea Gonk but alas I have been waiting for such a standardization since at least the mid-70's and it does not appear any closer now then it did then.


[This message has been edited by morphsci (edited December 10, 2003).]

This morning's question about a second zone reminded me of a feature I've wondered about a time or two. In place of the standard record loops used on the 1050 and 950, what about an independently switched analog-only audio/video record loop on a successor to the 950? I'm thinking of something to allow you to direct the input from VIDEO1 to the VCR record outs while watching the DVD source, for example. I wouldn't expect it on a receiver (expect perhaps the big "flagship" receivers), and it might not even fit with the overall plans for a higher-end pre/pro, but it would come in handy under certain circumstances.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

a thought, but id prefer to keep my video out of my audio equipment unless theres no other choice. as cheap as everyone seems to be, no one is going to drop more cash to have that feature. it would suit me fine to not have any video built into the next processor at all (except osd for setup only), and yes i realize this flies in the face of thx certification (or at least i think thx has to have video switching...). on the topic of displaying, id like to see no display on the processor at all except for the power light (which could be turned off). if they could integrate anything that needs to be displayed (including osd) into a remote, that would be wonderful. a lot of people cant see their unit anyway, and if you can you dont want to during a movie. im sure performance would increase a little by removing all the stuff that goes into having a display, plus you dont have to worry about anything going wrong with it, just the remote that you would die without :-).

It's funny (re: Gonk above) the same discussion got me thinking about LAN enabling a processor. Sure would be nice, and it can't cost much - One can get a router with a web interface for $30 or so, after all, and those folks have to be making money. Heck, a basic router has to have 2 ports, at least.

A tiny, cheap embedded CPU running Linux (one of the embeddable ones) on a simple SBC, hooked to the DSP control bus via an internal serial bus or something like that (I bet most if not all DSP chipsets support something like this) shouldn't cost much at all, and sure would be useful, particularly in a higher end processor.

• Automation would be simple
• Setup would be easy
• Updating the firmware
• Control for the second zone

Just for a few applications. Opening up a device for 3rd parties has seldom been a marketing error.

I'm woefully ignorant about this stuff. What would the networking stuff you just described be useful for in an a/v processor? Would all that LAN stuff be used just to set up the system? Or does it serve some other purpose?



[This message has been edited by Ellen (edited January 04, 2004).]

I'd like to see xlr balanced outs for the speakers. How 'bout a dvi out, too?

Jay

My dream next-gen 950.


I’m not very active on this forum, but I am a very happy 950 owner.

IMHO the 950 is a very good product so I would only add to it. If I had my way, I’d only make a few changes. They would be to…

- Improving the S/N ratio of the analog inputs

- Make a pure analog bypass mode (No A/D and D/A conversions)

- Add balanced outputs

- Use very high quality DACs and circuitry

- Make it super responsive (No delay when switching sources)

- Sell it for less than $2000

I think that, if done properly, a next-gen Outlaw pre/pro with these additions would sound frighteningly close to pre/pros costing about 5 figures. And, at less than 2 grand, it would be a fraction of their price.

Forget breaking the rules – if a pre/pro like that became popular, it would completely rewrite the book about what is considered a fair price for truly high-end audio.

Just a thought.

Well the ideal pre for me would allow keeping the signal in the digital mode right through to the output- to feed a digital amp(s). Maybe build in a digital crossover for the front speakers so that you could biamp (or even triamp) the front speakers. Support the new digital dvd-a and SACD I think goes without saying. As far as a device that puts through analog signals it is just about perfect, we don't need another Anthem or Lexicon- they're already out there, we need the sane priced competition.

Well, I am contemplating an Outlaw pruchase. I really want the flexibility of separates plus the coolness factor of having seperates puts me closer to what I think is true High-end HT moreso than even the most expensive reciever. It's just a look thing I guess. Don't get me wrong, its about the quality of sound and video too.

But alsa, I have a problem and a question. I only have one room in the house capable of supporting a system this large, and it needs to be for both music and movies. It is kind of complicated to explain what I want to do, but I will try my best.

First know that I build my own speakers, and they have gooten very good comments at various DIY shows. I have built a 7.2 system. (dual subs) I already set-up the room in the standard layout for this typer of speaker array. One sub is under the 92" screen, the other is on the left wall. I have 2 spiked stand for the amps to power the left and right speakers. The amps will be between the CC and each L and R speaker. The speakers are Bi-wireable. So is the CC.

I would like to have a system that would use a 770 for Movie playback and then switch to mono-blocks for the L/R speakers when litening to music. My problem is how to implement this using Outlaws equiptemnt. I have figured using the 950, and splitting the sub output to send signals to each sub. Done. The 770 would power all 7chnls. But how would I get the system to use the monoblocks instead when listening to music? Please note that I only have one pair front speakers. If I can answer questions to make this clearer, I will do so. Please help....Raichu

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A good Hometheater experience is like taking a 2hr+ vacation.

What about using a 755 to drive the center and all four surrounds, plus a pair of monoblocks to drive your main speakers all the time? That would avoid the problems of trying to use two different amps to drive the same speakers.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Yeah I just got off the phone with a very nice man at Outlaw, and he said that outside of very high-end switching systems, there really wasnt a way of doing what I wanted outside of getting off my duff and switching the speaker wires. Awh man...

Right now I busted out the pen and paper, and am working on a wiring set-up. I wil post my idea when I am done. Wish me luck. Please remember that while cost is an issue, if it were not for the "look" I am tring to achieve, (see this month's issue of HomeTheater Mag, Piazza's HT) I would just do the normal thing and buy a 770/950 and be done with it. I wish Outlaw had decided to make the M-200 amps a little more....uhm, well, kinda taller. I know it was designed that way for stacking purposes, but I did not expect it to look like that when I heard the phrase Mono-block.

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A good Hometheater experience is like taking a 2hr+ vacation.

Yeah I just got off the phone with a very nice man at Outlaw, and he said that outside of very high-end switching systems, there really wasnt a way of doing what I wanted outside of getting off my duff and switching the speaker wires. Awh man...

Right now I busted out the pen and paper, and am working on a wiring set-up. I wil post my idea when I am done. Wish me luck. Please remember that while cost is an issue, if it were not for the "look" I am tring to achieve, (see this month's issue of HomeTheater Mag, Piazza's HT) I would just do the normal thing and buy a 770/950 and be done with it. I wish Outlaw had decided to make the M-200 amps a little more....uhm, well, kinda taller. I know it was designed that way for stacking purposes, but I did not expect it to look like that when I heard the phrase Mono-block.

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A good Hometheater experience is like taking a 2hr+ vacation.

id like multiple dsps total and multiple dacs per channel.

1. HDMI/DVI switching ability. At LEAST 3 HDMI/DVI inputs.

2. Leave the discrete inputs alone. Make them STRIAGHT through [to volume]. Stop crossing each of the 5 channels to the .1 channel. At least make that a selectable option so that this receiver will qualify as as a true Audiophiles piece.

3. Make the display more attractive. Something Very 80's about the color/presention of the current model.

Someonoe above mentioned a TFT display. Not a bad idea. Though, it might jack the cost up and that's one thing that sells your product. Cost point.

4. Add XLR balanced inputs.

5. Add an "auto calibration" feature like the Pioneer Elite receiver has (you know, you set the microphone that comes with the unit in your listening position and it plays tones and does channel calibration itself).

This would be cheap to implement and a major selling point for a novice because his system can "set itself up properly!"

Fully balanced XLR outputs and circuitry topology for all channels.

Extra shielded with advanced, ultra low noise, ultra low loss audiophile parts and power supplies. Copper shielding.

At least two (dual differential mode) Wolfsen high end pure 24/192 DAC's (or greater since chips do advance) on all channels for extra horse power and lower distortion. I've been impressed with Wolfsen converter chips since ARCAM started using them and they perform wonderfully.

You may want to look into advanced 32 bit DAC's as INTEL just released 32 bit resolution audio recording and playback capabilities.

Separate processing and D-A conversion for pure DSD signals all the way through for SACD's, and other DSD source material. I would consult with Sony & Philips on proper implementation of pure DSD capable chips and circuitry.

Premium digital master clock for all digital signals to minimize or eliminate jitter. Apogee makes superb digital audio clocks, as an example.

Premium upconversion of all PCM and compressed codec digital signals to 24/192 resolution (or higher if possible).

12+ Channel Discrete capabilities with flexible channel assignment, including multiple stereo subwoofer outputs, extra screen channels, as well as multiple side or back channels/speakers, and the possibility of extra height channels in the near future... all discrete, of course.

Separate bass shaker/tactile transducer outputs with adjustable crossover & slope controls (need not have XLR outputs for these).

Fully adjustable crossover filters and slopes for all channels.

32 Bit audio processing.

At least four HDMI v.2 (or later) inputs with full digital, no-loss A/V switching capabilities. At least four HDMI outputs.

Possible Firewire IEEE 1394b inputs/outputs if need be.

High bandwidth, 8 channel pure analog input with direct to volume bypass mode with no double bass or subwoofer filtering at all. Switchable 80 Hz analog bass crossover for older high resolution players with no built in (or poorly designed) bass management.

Capable of decoding ALL current and upcoming digital surround and high end audio formats including the full MLP slate of functions, Windows Media Audio including their Pro & Windows Media Pro Lossless codecs, DTS++, DTS Lossless, DD++, and fully uncompressed LPCM and DSD. These are all quite possible capabilities of the next generation HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disc formats.

Fully software (user downloadable) and hardware upgradeable.

Extra processing power for future-proofing.

I certainly think that many of the suggestions in this thread are worthwhile. Some posts here indirectly remind me, though, that there is a cost/benefit ratio to everything, and that as one attempts to approach the nth degree of performance, the cost curve usually becomes pretty steep.

I doubt that the Outlaw philosophy would take them down the road to compete in the 'ultimate pre/pro' market beginning in the mid four-figure price range and upward, although I could be wrong. Likely the Outlaws will have a pre/pro in the $1K range that will rival others costing two or three times as much. But for such a price I wouldn't expect that Outlaw is striving to capture the hearts and minds of those living in the audio ‘upper atmosphere’ – those who are enamored by such things as five-figure playback transports, four-figure interconnects and three-figure power cords for the last six feet of a multiple-mile electrical journey.

I don’t mean to disappoint those that can hear and see things that cannot be shown on highly sensitive and accurate equipment, but some really talented engineers are going to be designing the next generation pre/pro, overseen by business people who are not likely among the enamored folks mentioned above. Oops, I’ve gotten off-topic and into one of my favorite rants.

I expect that Outlaw will give us quite a bit of excellence for our dollar in a future pre/pro, but there will be limits as to what is possible at a given price point, or even really necessary regardless of cost.

Santa here is my list,

Add Dolby Pro-Logic IIx to turn non-digital material to 6.1 or 7.1 surround

Ins and outs for both DVI and HDMI video

An IEEE 1394b port for use with your mp3 player, they may not sound quite as good, but they come in handy at parties.

If it won't break the bank, the ability to upgrade software in the system so we do not have to buy a new processor every 4 years. You can sell the software or module upgrade for a few hundred dollars for at least one generation.

Give the ability to change the displays color to match your other components (Not super important at all, just a nice touch)

DO NOT GO WITH THE GIMICKY LCD MOVIE DISPLAY, IT ADDS ADDITIONAL COST THAT IS NOT WORTH THE, "Ooooh Aaaah" FACTOR AND IS DISTRACTING.

Stick with the clean lines and display style you have, just try to get away from the 80's 90's NAD/Proton look. The 1070 styling that I saw from magazine shots taken at the show looks promising!!!

I would really like to see a digital stereo out so I can run 2 channel direct to my active crossover.

I'd lose the tuner, add xlr outs and, since my dvd player has it's video output directly connected to the front projector inputs anyway, the 950 video switching is less important to me. (OTOH, a small screen or video out for dealing with dvd menus might interest me.) I'm running all my sound, i.e. dvd-a, sacd, cd, and dvd 5.1 through direct bypass with more than satisfactory results. I'll take a stripped down, higher quality unit, please!

Jay

Seems like outlaw would want to stick to outputs that their amps and sub have... XLR on everything would be interesting though.

The upcoming Model 790 amp (7x300W) will apparently include XLR inputs...

It has a special type of balanced connection. It's close in appearance, but I don't think it's the standard type of XLR.

I hope it's standard - from what I've seen( Pat\'s 790 picture ), it appears to be. How does it appear to differ to you?

I hope it's standard too. I'm really sure I read somewhere on here that it's going to be a tad more advanced and the connectors will be a slightly different size (smaller?) than the existing XLR, although they will appear very similar, as you saw. I wish I could find it. I think Scott would know.

The 790 could be a winner.

I am not sure Outlaw is going to put our XLR question officially to rest before they are prepared to release the full specs for the unit.

That being said, I am confident that this amp will have XLR female inputs that are compatible with other balanced equipment. It would seem to be market suicide to promote a different interface standard in a device they should and would be directing towards a larger marketplace.

Krell amps have a special direct coupled design, with special connections that can be used, or not used, but that is Krell $$$.

Note that Apple Computer has consistently moved to make it's system software and hardware easier to use in a PC dominated environment. Compatibility is critical to this affordably priced product market niche.

Contrary opinions are welcome, but I just don't see any logical reason to go that route.

Allan

Any balanced connectors we used would be standard XLRs.

Scott

Thank you.

It would be great for setup, but it would also facilitate a level of automation that is almost unheard of, and the cost should be quite low. As I said, the cost to the consumer of a router + this sort of interface is less than $30, pretty cheap.

The ethernet 100/TX interface is dirt cheap, and the code required for a BASIC http server and HTML/CGI interface is minute. Of course this would also pave the way to have a internet radio (via the network adapter) and access to networked storage containing media files, if desired. Firmware updates would be applied via this interface, the works.

In the future, everything is going to be networked, might as well start now.

i agree with this. you see a few companies with similar ideas. one that springs to my mind is Onkyo/Integra... they have models that connect via ethernet cables now and can stream radio, connect to components, etc.

as for me i wouldnt use it at all, other than possibly tying into my computer. eventually there will be one magical box to connect everything, or possibly replace most things. how cool would it be to have a tv that doubled as a computer, control center for your house, etc.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott:
[QB] Any balanced connectors we used would be standard XLRs.

Excellent, but "XLR" doesn't define the signal level, nor does "balanced". For example 1/4" jacks can be balanced, and XLR’s can be used for mic and even speaker connections (a horrid idea, that).

I recommend balanced outputs should conform to "pro" levels of +4 dBV, otherwise the typical pro balanced input amp will not develop its' maximum power and will have an elevated noise floor.

Balanced inputs have a similar problem, save that a balanced input that was designed for a -10 dBV consumer level that clipped on a hotter +4 dBV pro signal would be worse than useless.

Personally, I would find a few balanced +4 dBV inputs (2 stereo, 1 multi-channel) quite useful, but more balanced connections than that wouldn’t add value for me.

For the amp outputs, balanced outs are much more critical for noise reasons, and XLR connectors are much more reliable than either 1/4" or RCA/Cinch connectors.

I could also be happy with an EDAC 56 pin 516 connector wired to use a standard ADAT cable. It occupies a less space on the back panel than a zillion XLR’s, and it’s a single connector to plug/unplug for maintenance.

_daev

One thing I would like to see is more upgradeability. Like flash memory and replaceable internal components. I know one of the decisions that the Outlaws must make is how expensive should they make the new pre/pro? If they used an upgradeable chassis they could sell the new pre/pro at a low initial cost and let the end user upgrade as needed.

The inside of the 950 is not too much different than a computer layout, in that there is a main board and other boards that plug into it, the similarities end there. But it is possible to have component cards that could be added latter on or bought all at once. Maybe someone wants XLR's but someone else needs only RCA type connections. They each could order the new pre/pro with the connection types they needed now and have the ability to change out those add-in cards at a latter date when the need arouse.

This would help to future proof the new Pre/Pro. It would also help the Outlaw's in servicing their "Internet Only" customers in that they may only need to warrenty a replacable component and not have to ship the whole unit back and forth.

I know one thing, it would solve a number of requests in this thread, being that you could order what you needed and not have to order those things you had no use for. Don't need Zones, don't order the new Pre/Pro with a Zone extension card, you get the idea.

See the link below of a receiver that has some removable components.
Onkyo back panel

HDMI/DVI inputs and video switching.

I'm sick of trying to explain why you have to punch multiple buttons to get the video and audio to sync up.

I agree with the Kahuna on the button thing.
While there have been a lot of great suggestions in this thread, the number one item on my wish list is up-conversion from composite and S-Vid to Component. There are a few units out there that do this so we know it can be done.

If the A/V world will step into updatable software (a few high-ends have it), the only part of the mystery digital connector that has to be settled is the physical connector itself. If the software guess is wrong, it can be updated. Oh yeah; convert composite, S-Vid, and component to digital too once the digital question has been settled.

I don't want much do I?

I need two component monitor outputs, one for the TV and one for a Projector, am I the only one?