Yes, I think we all know you're not only skeptical, but you flat out disbelieve amps make a important difference. And this is based only on spec sheets.

This is often the case when someone hasn't heard a high end amp switched into a system they know very well and heard the difference it can make.
They've just read "most amps sound the same".

If you can afford the eAR250, I highly rec. you hear the diff. for yourself. As I said, you will be stunned. It will have far greater control over your speakers making what comes out those same speakers (whatever you own) sound much more realistic than what you probably hear now.
What do you own now? Do you own the 950 pre/pro?

If Rotel, Outlaw etc...sounded pretty much the same as Krell, Theta, Ayre, Levinson, etc... these hi-end companies would be out of business. They're all making solid state amps with the cheaper brands having plently of power for almost anyone's needs.

If you think everyone who buys these hi-end brands is only getting a tiny, hard to hear improvement then you're just telling yourself a lie to make yourself feel better about not being able to afford one.

Yes Klipsh speakers have a distinctive sound. Their awful freq. response on the high end as the sound waves bounce around the plastic horn before they hit your ear with their high effi. harshness is pretty easy to spot compared to most speakers using metal or cloth domes.
They're the only major brand using horn loaded tweeters so if you know your friend isn't filthy rich it'd probably be an easy guess that the new bright/harsh sound you heard is from Klipsh.

Typically most good high end speakers (of which I would not add Klipsh to that list) are fairly flat freq. response and decent phase allignment, with some better than others (or course).
These differences are typically (on a spec sheet / test report) +/- ~2db.

This range is far greater than the distortion 'specs' of most solid state amps so most people say speakers are by far the most important element in the audio chain because of this.

The problem in that thinking is that the speaker's own 'distortion' is heard as a small tonal difference from speaker to speaker (still talking good high end speakers w/o massive response errors). Not a big deal.

But the distortion that comes from amps, DACs, preamps (not recorded on spec sheets) are what make or break the "life" of the music. That's where the realism is lost. That's what's Not measured on spec sheets.
It's so difficult to put into words, you mostly just need to hear the diff. between a really hi-fi component and a decent mid-fi model.

It's not their 'sound', it's the damage they do or don't do to the delicate signal.

And it makes a HUGE diff. compared to two diff. speakers that tonaly 'sound' a little diff., but are both capable of playing a super realistic output or a dull lifeless one, or a bright harsh one depending on the quality of signal they're sent.

I think you've yet to hear this effect. It's where good solid value/quality mid-fi turns into true hi-fi.

Hook up the Outlaw 1050 to a pair of $20K Revel Salons and the Salons will not sound incredible in any way. Why? The rec's specs have no gross distortion problems at all, and it should have plenty of power to play the Revels for a short time at the very least.

Hook up an Outlaw 950 and 770 amp and it will sound far far better. Odd things like bass you never heard before, details that you never heard before, far more realisim.

Hook up a very high end DAC, passive preamp, and the eARTwo amp and it will floor you with how realistic is sounds. Air, imaging, transients, detail, dynamics/bass 'slam', depth, width of soundstage, smoothness, etc...

Now reverse it... Hook up that very high end front end to a pair of very low priced speakers (like the Onix Rockets for examp.) and you'll STILL be floored by the realism. Probably calling it better than the $20K Revels hooked up to the 950/770.

The speed of an amp is evident in it's transients. I have had several amps in my system and they all spec as pretty much distortion free, yet sound Very different.

Play a track w/ a strong solid kick drum beat. It sounds progressively tighter, clearer, and more realistic on each better amp. They all pretty much played the correct freq. fundamental and harmonics but the worst amp sounds very dull and sluggish compared to the best amp (the eARTwo). Hard to notice the worst of the amps was 'wrong' until you hear the better and hear the obvious diff.

And no double blind A/B tests needed. If it's not blatantly obvious to you (or me) then IMO it doesn't much matter and isn't worth the extra money. A far more costly amp that sounds -"a tiny bit better maybe, but hard to say for sure if that's what I heard?" is totally not worth it at all IMO.

The diff. the eARTwo was NOT subtle. I would have sent it back if it was. I don't have $2.5K to throw away on a tiny improvement (at the time I bought it -it's now $3.5K and $4K on Sept. 1st). I thought the 950 might hold the eARTwo back from being much diff. from my previous amp, but it didn't. The eARTwo allowed the 950 to shine through showing just how much damage my previous amp was doing to the signal.

People who say the 950's a little bright a little harsh and probably hearing their solid state amp adding these elements to the signal. The 950's not bright or harsh.
It's not the very best DAC/preamp there is, but it's Very Good connected to the eARTwo amp and my Newform Research speakers (-/+2db flat top to bottom -/+1db from 800Hz-14KHz and very good phase).

Dynamics are when between two amps one sounds more compressed volume-wise than the other. They're again both playing spec-wise almost distortion free, yet when a loud sound plays one amp sounds like it's not playing as dynamically. Like how the FM radio is dynamically compressed yet the whole signal is present. Play a CD of the same sound and the louds sound louder. Having nothing to do w/ CD sounding better than radio.

Try the eAR250 amp (~$1990) or the PS Audio HCA-2 (~$1690) if you want to hear what the best in digital amps can do. I'm still waiting to hear the HCA-2 in my own system, but since the eAR amp was called far better by two diff. guys in direct / detailed comp. I decided to go that route and have been floored by it.

I still want Outlaw to look into making digital amps, but none of these high end amps are just power supplies slapped onto a cheap amp chip. Not even close.
I do think Outlaw could hit a lower price point than these amps easy. I'm not sure they could make them sound as good?
There seems to be a very high learning curve even for engineers who design high end solid state or tube amps.

My Audiosource AMP7 uses the Tripath amp module and was a very cheap price. It's great in some ways, but poor in others.
I haven't heard the Bel Canto eVo in my system, but from the tons of reviews on it, it's a very high qualtiy amp (though beaten by both the PS Audio and Acoustic Reality digital amps).
The Bel Canto also uses the Tripath amp module, but in a totally custom, super clean board. The inside is almost totally empty -just small amp boeard and large power supply (unlike the messy guts of my AMP7).
I have little doubt that the two sound very different. A good example of how you can't just slap a digital amp together and get gold.

Well, I've had or listened to quite a few amps. That's one curious thing about high-end, no seven people seem to agree on what is and isn't.

I've personally owned stuff by the David Hafler Company (when they were around), Sony, Pioneer, Carver, Adcom, Outlaw, others and never heard any difference (except in output volume) between any of them. Based on that, either they all somehow managed to create the exact same 'mid-fi' sound through some massive amplifier conspiracy or amps pretty much take a little signal and make it bigger.

Controlling the driver is a reach. An amp applies voltage and supplies a current source. The internal resistance of that source is where the so called damping factor comes from, although most amp companies muff it when they list that 'spec'. Interestingly, a sound reinforcement company (QSC) is the only one I've noticed lately that actually remembers the part where they must specify the load for it to mean anything.

The Klipsch sound is partly from the horn, but the horn is an impedence matching device, not an echo chamber. I don't like them, either.

As for high end companies existence proving something, it does, but nothing one can hear. I like Mercedes Benz, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking it's better transportation than a Toyota. People (including me) spend tons of money on useless stuff because we want to. And I do appreciate the build quality and looks of expensive things, including the Mercedes and the Krell.

Now I admit, it's been a while since I went seriously listening to high end stuff, mostly because of my almost uniform disappointment in the past, so maybe I should venture out to see what massive improvements have been discovered in the last 15 years. Once our beta test is concluded and the pressure is relieved perhaps I'll do that.

Are you aware of any dealers in the Portland, Oregon area that you would consider high end dealers?

Charlie

I guess I'd also have to get you to define high end. There is a local ML, B&K, Anthem, DefTech etc. dealer - is that high end to you?


[This message has been edited by charlie (edited August 16, 2002).]

"Well, I've had or listened to quite a few amps. That's one curious thing about high-end, no seven people seem to agree on what is and isn't."

I understand your point, but you can see more than 7 people on HDforum who think the eARTwo is the best amp they've ever heard in their systems -for whatever that's worth to you. Apparently nothing, since you refuse to even consider the possibility that this amp's that good.

"I've personally owned stuff by the David Hafler Company (when they were around), Sony, Pioneer, Carver, Adcom, Outlaw, others and never heard any difference (except in output volume) between any of them. Based on that, either they all somehow managed to create the exact same 'mid-fi' sound through some massive amplifier conspiracy or amps pretty much take a little signal and make it bigger."

Or you don't realize that they're all of very similar solid state designs that will output similar very clean, yet fairly cold lifeless sound.
Or maybe you're deaf?

What processor and speakers do you use (to ask you again)?

Sony and Pioneer are certainly Not known for making hi-end amps. I don't think I've ever seen a Pioneer amp? The only Sony amp I recently saw was a picture of an ES model sold only in the Asian market. Their ES line is solid mid-fi (middle of the road), but not high end.

Hafler, Carver... it depends, but certainly not high end.
Hafler's known for big power amps for pro audio like live concerts. This isn't refined sound, it's just lots of power. My brother in law has a Hafler amp, and Hafler is based here in Az.

Bob Carver is a certainly creative, but his latest company Sunfire is where his most recent amp design are found. He developed a type of switching power supply so his amps have a ton of power, but run cool. They're conventional solid state otherwise, and I think they're colored in sound.

No exp. with his older amps under the Carver name, but I suspect they're not better just based on them being older designs from the same designer.

Adcom and Outlaw are very solid brands (as is Rotel), but nobody's calling their amps high end.
Not to insult Outlaw -the best value of the bunch.

Stan Warren I think is in Oregon. He's the former 'S' in PS Audio and his Supermods biz is one of the best deals in audio today.
I know he's modded Adcom amps in the past to great results in the words of the several owners. Look him up, and read about what he does to change a mid-fi amp into something much better.

I looking into seeing if he'll mod my 950's output, but I'm waiting till after the hiss fix to look into it.

I'd have to know what you're using for a processor/speakers to say more, but even without knowing that, you have yet to listen to hi-end amps (and probably processors, and probably speakers). You clearly haven't heard anything beyond mid-fi amps that do pretty much sound about the same. Though NOT exactly the same as you say.

"Controlling the driver is a reach."

Re-read my explanation of 'speed' of an amp and you'll see what I mean by a better amp controlling the drivers better than another. The amp IS controling the drivers.
How they do this and how they perfrom is a complicated matter of power supply, feedback (often slowing the amp down a great deal in mid-fi designs), etc...

You've clearly yet to hear this diff. in the gear you've heard so you probably just won't understand me until you do hear the diff. -if ever.

Listen to any tube amp to hear what a totally diff. type of design can do for your sound. I'm not a fan of tube amps, but if it's got a good solid few watts of power, then at moderate volumes and decent eff. speakers you'll hear pretty much distortion free sound from a tube amp and you'll hear how much clearer the sound is.

Tube amps typically have poor control of the bass low end when pushed too far (usually easy to do), and often rolled off highs, so I wouldn't rec. Outlaw make one or anyone buy one.

"The Klipsch sound is partly from the horn, but the horn is an impedence matching device, not an echo chamber. I don't like them, either."

Oh man. This is pointless. I'm trying to help you, but there seems to be no hope of that.

"As for high end companies existence proving something, it does, but nothing one can hear."

Charlie, the brands you've listed you've heard are all low end to decent solid mid-fi performance.

Don't say you hi end brands don't perform better when you've never heard them. And if you do hear them and still say this, then you're just deaf, and you'll gain no benefit from a higher end amp that would otherwise (had you not been deaf) taken you much much closer to reality.

"Now I admit, it's been a while since I went seriously listening to high end stuff, mostly because of my almost uniform disappointment in the past, so maybe I should venture out to see what massive improvements have been discovered in the last 15 years."

Yes! Things have changed in the past 15 years Charlie! Try something in your own home in your own system. Hearing a hi-fi shop system -diff. processor, diff speakers in a diff room that you own hooked up to a certain amp will NOT tell you how the amp itself effects the sound.

You need to try it in your own system where it's the only variable. The same goes for any other components you'd want to try.

I've heard a system of Revel Speakers hooked up to Mark Levinson electronics sound like total garbage. AND I've heard the exact same system sound like one of the best systems I've ever heard. The only diff. was the shop changed locations and the new room the system was in was horrible.
Had I not heard it sound incredible before, I may have gone away thinking Revel or Levinson (or both) were overprices and overated. Now I just think they're overpriced.

"Once our beta test is concluded and the pressure is relieved perhaps I'll do that."

What beta test?

"Are you aware of any dealers in the Portland, Oregon area that you would consider high end dealers?"

I'm in Az Charlie. You might've guess that from my handle? Look in the phone book for hi-fi shops and ask 'em what brands they carry.

"I guess I'd also have to get you to define high end. There is a local ML, B&K, Anthem, DefTech etc. dealer - is that high end to you?"

No, not really. Sort of a mid-fi to entry level hi-end at best. That sounds like an Ultimate Electronics or that type of store. A solid step up from B. Buy/ C. City, but not the best of the best gear.

I won't pretend like there's an exact defi. of what's low, mid, or hi end, but it comes down to the exact product in any case, and NOT price dependant, but that is often a good clue.

ML you say? Is that Mark Levinson or Martin Logan? I'll guess Martin Logan based on the other brands you listed (another good clue as to how high end a store in general is).

Levinson is very much high end, all their products.

Martin Logan is often called high end, but they really have very poor freq. response on the high end. There's more accurate speakers w/ the same speed and openess as Martin Logan, and for much cheaper. My Newform Research speakers for exam., and for the same price as the lowest end of Martin Logans they're faaaaar better.

B&K is a very solid brand. Not really high end, but very good overall. I'd call Outlaw the same yet far cheaper, so it gets my nod in that range.

At first I thought you wrote B&W. I see you didn't but they're a good example too.
Their best speakers are some of the best speakers in the world, but they make diff. lines of speakers w/ diff. cabinets, x-overs, drivers, etc...
Their bottom of their line is not even close to thier top. All their speakers are very good though (at worst), but in the lower end better deals can be had from brands like Axiom, Swans, Onix etc. online.

Anthem's along the lines of B&K, Outlaw, Rotel etc... some products better than others, not HUGE diff. in sound quality, and close-ish prices etc.. (with Outlaw being the best deal IMO).

Def. Tech's?
I hate Def. Techs. They're just lousy IMO.
Not as bad as what I'd call low-fi, but they're popular because of massive advertising, and support from mid fi mags like Sound & Vision. They're the mid-fi version of Bose (Bose owning the low-fi Best Buy electronic masses).

Bipole speakers are just a bad design IMO, and their sound is nothing special. The powered subs in the mains are pointless. Much better 'true sub' response from an actual subwoofer like SVS or Hsu. Mate that to a pair of bookshelf Def. Techs and you'll trounce their top o' the line for less money.
But for the price there's much better anyway, so I wouldn't even rec. Def. Tech's bookshelf models.

IMO, skip brick and motar stores/products in most cases. The best performance/prices are from online only outfits (like Outlaw) now-a-days (if you know where to look, but you should 'cuz there's tons of people like me online directing others to these better deals on better performing products -that's how you found out about Outlaw I'll bet).

Order the eAR250 and listen to it. If your processor and speakers don't suck (I don't know what you own), you'll hear a BIG diff. I can't say this anymore clearly.
And I say this knowing that you just told me you didn't hear ANY diff. in all the previous amps you've heard.

Try it for yourself if you really want to get into high end. Send it back if you can't hear any diff. This won't happen though, and you'll want to upgrade your other electronics, because the eAR250 will be the strongest link in your chain hands down.

If you don't hear a diff., stick with Outlaw electronics, the best performance for the price, and get the Onix Rocket speakers if you need new speakers.
This is certainly nothing but a great combo, but don't fool yourself that much better doesn't exist.

I call something high end if it's really elite in some way. Some type of engineering that's a step up from typical. This usually costs more but it IS actually better sounding.

Krell, Theta, Ayre, Pass Labs for solid state amps. Very careful use of feedback so the amp doesn't kill the life of the music. You've never heard an amp that doesn't I suspect -by your list of so-so amps you've heard.
Heavily biased into class A, no global feedback, balanced inputs. The 'hi-fi' details that the lower end doesn't often bother with.

I'd write forever if I addressed every single type of product (DAC's, transports, speakers, etc..), so I'll stick with amps since that's the point of the thread.

And I've already said more than once my feeling on the subject.

I'm not sure if Outlaw will ever look to really enter the high end, but I suspect they aren't looking to any time soon. Their high end pre/pro (same for a univ. disc player) will not come out for a long time because they're waiting on all the digital input mess and format wars to get worked out before they go forward. Makes sense.

And they don't seem interested at all in the high end digital amp 'wave of the future' (which started in ~1998) and is best probably exemplified by the eAR amps.

Um...

I do have a tube amp, and I don't like the way it sounds. Looks cool though. Didn't list it since I didn't like it. I don't hate it, but it's a lot of trouble for a nifty nightlight.

My old Hafler stuff wasn't sound reinforcement. I understood they closed their doors some time ago, so I suspect either they bailed from the hifi side or someone infused cash and brought them into the other sound reinforcement market.

I appreciate your sincerity.


[This message has been edited by charlie (edited August 17, 2002).]

OK -

After careful consideration I'll accept the hypothesis that I've simply not tested a high-end enough amp to hear the distinctive and obvious difference in sound. So I guess, once some other things are done I should do that. Obviously I will need to wait until I can devote a couple days at least to be fair and thorough.

Also, I will need to know what amp I should test, although I assume the eAR has your nod

And I will need to know what sort of issues pop out of typical solid state amps that are solved by high-end designs. Touchy feely stuff like liquid sounds and punchy whatever won't work. In particular I will need to know exactly what sort of test signal(s) will produce the expected problems in my baseline amps and what I can expect to see in measured results - for example what sort of signal will result in which sort of distortion. Distortion IS what we're talking about, in the broad sense. Also what sort of test load should be used to observe these improvements. Any other apparatus notes will be appreciated.

Thanks!


Charlie (upgrading test bench as we speak!)

Here's the test to do...
(just as I wrote in my last post)

Order the eAR250 and listen to it. If your processor and speakers don't suck (I don't know what you own), you'll hear a BIG diff. I can't say this anymore clearly.

You're too hung up on specs and tests. The problem is that we just can't do all tests that relate to sound quality. The test don't exist.
And the specs you read are simple generalizations.

Like I said.. most low-ish end solid state amps test damn near perfect in typical use, yet they don't sound nearly as good as a great high end model.

The good news (if you'll actually listen to what I've been saying) is that the real TEST is HOW IT SOUNDS to your ears. There is no better test than that.

You have yet to say what equipt. you own though I've asked a few times, so maybe you have very low end stuff that will not send a very high quality amp a good enough signal to let that high end amp really shine like it could otherwise.

Let me remove a lot of variables so it's VERY EASY to understand...
If you have the Outlaw 950 prepro and decent speakers that measure fairly flat and you have either the eAR250 (my preference)or PS Audio HCA-2 (since the thread's about spotlighting what the best in modern digital amps can do)and compare them to a typical modestly priced solid state amp you should hear a BIG difference.
If you don't, then at least you'll know that you'll never have to care about hi end sound because you're in capable of hearing it.

I really doubt that's true though.

If you want to try high end solid state amps then you should try the brands that I already said more than once -Ayre, Theta, Krell, Pass Labs.

My point about the tube amps is that not all amps sound the same, and tubes vs. solid state even in general easily makes this point. You didn't say what tube amp you have, but sounds like you think it sounds bad. At least I know that you've heard an amp that sounds different to all the other amps you've heard.
There are certainly many great sounding tube models out there, though I'd never buy one for the typical negatives of tube designs.

What speakers and front end do you use now???(processor/preamp/dac/cd player/transport, amps).

For purposes of evaluation I would be using a CompuScope and an arbitrary waveform generator, along with whatever test load was deemed most likely to introduce the mid-fi artifacts that high end designs correct.

I'm expecting that whatever long hard hours of R&D the high end guys put into their designs were not done without specific goals, and thus what I need to know is how to recreate the defects they have labored to correct.

I don't expect them to show up in a conventional THD or frequency response test as mid-fi designs also do well there, but rather on more difficult to reproduce tests, such as for example bursts or complex waveforms. Whatever the case, I've been looking for an excuse to upgrade my test bench and this could be it! I'm pumped!

So I just need to know specifically what to send in and what to expect out, defect and improvement wise. Even if it requires a music signal, a wave gen can certainly do that, although I really would then need a good explaination of how the amp knows it's 'doing music'.

You got me ready to go the extra mile - don't peter out now!

Charlie

My old 'music' system had a DH-110 preamp and over the years a series of different amps and other associated bits and parts. The amps included an Old Colony (or one of the companies that run ads there - it's been too long) mod'ed Dynaco ST70, a DH120, the Carver m1.5t and a few more.

That is all still in storage (except the Carver) as my new house has a 6.1 system in it. I was hoping to get a 950, but with the issues and delays that are popping up I may go with a Motorola based system like the Sunfire or Ref30.

At this moment I'm using a 1050 until I make a choice. I'll also be auditioning an Anthem AVM20 soon, but the Cirrus stuff just seems to have a lot of issues.

The speakers are a DIY set using primarily Audax parts, including their aerogel midrange drivers.


[This message has been edited by charlie (edited August 19, 2002).]

Charlie,
I believe your goal is pointless.

Do all the testing you like. It's a total waste of time. You act like you want to get very technical about finding out exactly what the output differences are in high end digital amps compared to middle of the road solid state.

1) Clearly the tests that would need to be done to determine exactly how and in what way a higher end amp sounds better than a lower quality amp don't exist.

2) Despite your seemingly technichal leanings, you miss the most obvious point.... The point I've stated over and over again in one way or another...

You don't listen to bench tests.

You listen to specific cd players preamps, dacs, etc... and the only real POINT of a high end piece of electronics is to sound better to your ears.

The test is -Step One... GET one of these digital amps. You'll need to do this to do any of your silly ancillary bench tests anyway.
You've yet to do step one, so don't tell anyone 'not to peter out on you'. That's just goofy.

Step Two - Replace your 1050 with a preamp. You mentioned a few you have. I'm not familar with their model numbers to make any comment on their transparency, but it should be better than using the rec. as a preamp/dac.

Then get a good CD player or DAC/transport combo, and since you didn't really describe what your DIY speakers are, I don't know if you'll need a sub or not.

You didn't say if you speakers are a 3-way w/ a dedicated bass woofer or if they're a 2-way design or what?
Just taking a guess that they're an M-T-M design w/ dual 6 1/2" aerogel woofers? If so you'd need a sub for true flat 20-20kHz output.

BTW -have you ever used one of your solid state amps w/ the pre/outs in the 1050?
You should probably get at least some improvement in you main speaker's sound quality by doing just that.
If you can't hear any diff. I think you might have a problem with your ears.

Enough is enough now Charlie. Any more talk here is pointless!

Go get an amp if your want to hear the diff. -or don't if you don't want to.
But you'll get no more 'handholding' from me trying to explain to you the most basic elements of an audio system or the POINT of listening to more realistic music for music's sake.

Perhaps you just should go listen to a lovely sine wave at your bench system, pretend you can't get better sound reproduction than that, and grin your life away.

Well, there's no need to be mean about it.

I'm sincerely interested in this, but I've already proven to myself how unreliable my ears can be. Without going into the painful details I accidentally performed a blind(ish) test on myself and pretty much impressed the power of expectation upon myself. So to be sure I need proof. I know I can't trust my ears in sighted listening and I can't run a good DBT (time, patience, etc) so what I need are measurements.

Any audible improvement is measurable. The trick is knowing what to measure. I want to know what I should measure, what the high end guys have fixed.

I'm interested enough to spend considerable $$$ on test equipment ($1000-$6000) but I'm not going in without specific goals. Without goals nothing gets done.

If no one knows what's been fixed I'll really get suspicious, as I know how engineering works and there are always measureable goals. If not, it's not engineering.

The only options at that point will be to give up until I am able to do a proper DBT or someone else does the same. The problem with any listening test, even a DTB or ABX is that they don't generally show much except presence or absence of difference or preference. Then we have to sort out why.

Does that make sense to you?

PS -

My DIY are MTTM with 5.25 aerogels and a subwoofer dedicated to each channel.

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited August 20, 2002).]

"Well, there's no need to be mean about it."

Ok. Sorry. I don't mean to be flat out rude to you, but I am ticked off that you continue to not catch my points though I repeat them over and over again.

"I'm sincerely interested in this, but I've already proven to myself how unreliable my ears can be.-"

Forget about hi-end audio if your ears don't work right. I'm betting you just haven't heard the right equip. though, but maybe you do have bad ears. I don't know.
No point in wasting money on audio then. Find a new hobby, or concentrate on the video end of your HT.

"-Without going into the painful details I accidentally performed a blind(ish) test on myself and pretty much impressed the power of expectation upon myself.-"

Lemme guess.. you thought you hooked up something new, but the old thing was still hooked up and you 'thought' you heard a diff.?

"-So to be sure I need proof. I know I can't trust my ears in sighted listening and I can't run a good DBT (time, patience, etc) so what I need are measurements."

NO, you DON'T need measurments. You need to HEAR an amp make an improvement or not make one -and NOT in a blind test, and if you don't hear a diff. then you don't hear it end of story.
What you hear is the ONLY goal.

I can't believe you just can't grasp this simple point!? And I'm sorry that I sound so rude again, but damn... it's just so simple, and you just don't get it.

If you tricked yourself into hearing a diff. when nothing in your system changed, I'm sure the diff. you thought you heard was subtle at best. I'm guessing after this 'event' you don't trust you ears anymore. This is not the right attitude unless you have actual hearing damage.

"Get back on the horse" so to speak.

As I said, this eAR amp in NOT a subtle diff. And for it's price it shouldn't be. If it's not 'slap you in the face' obviously better than your previous amp then I'd say it's not worth it's high price compared to so-so sounding, value priced solid state amps.

Say two amps sound the same to you, yet one measures WAAAAY better. SO WHAT!?? Why would you even care???? You'd be a fool to spend far more money on the better measuring high end amp if it didn't sound any diff. to you.

"Any audible improvement is measurable. The trick is knowing what to measure."

Yes... in theory. As I and others have said already the limited 'spec sheets' don't tell all.
Remember my point (I've already made here) stating that there's probably some elements of the audio that just aren't measurable by any lab equip. yet clearly exist when you hear them.

This is all irrelevant though for the above stated reason.

You can't test/measure every element of the human brain as a processor, memory storage system, etc..., but we know that it has incredible performance 'specs' none-the-less, and I'd rather be wired to the one in my noggin over any motherboard/hard-drive on the market.

I can explain why in general terms, but I can't give you the exact 'specs' why though.

"I want to know what I should measure, what the high end guys have fixed."

Pointless.

Such testing is of no use to you in 'listening to music or your home theater'. It's helpful if you're actually designing an amp, but you aren't.

"I'm interested enough to spend considerable $$$ on test equipment ($1000-$6000) but I'm not going in without specific goals. Without goals nothing gets done."

Yes. And you have no goals, and that's why you're doing nothing. You're in this goofy 'Catch 22' with yourself that will prevent you from doing anything. It's very very sad.

You'll spend lots of money on lab equpitment to do tests that don't exist, once someone tells you what they are.

Amazing logic.

Yet you won't spend this money on the amp I've mentioned that's far better than the solid state amps you've heard. It's returnable if you don't find it to sound better.
The risk is almost nothing -esp. compared to buying lab equip. that will do nothing audio-wise other than drain your future audio budget.

I REALLY find it hard to believe that you're all fired up to spend thousands on lab equip. (once someone tells you what to measure), but you're totally unwilling to spend the same amount on the refundable amp that the lab equip. would be meant to test!