If Samsung's HD2 DLP-based RPTVs I saw at the Home Entertainment 2002 show are a good indication, the contrast and black level of TI's HD2 chips are markedly improved. While there, I met with senior marketing managers from PLUS, InFocus, and TI. PLUS and InFocus are currently working on HD2 720p units to be introduced later this year, though at slightly higher price points than I'd hoped for (they both told me that the North American HT PJ market is still quite small and cannot support pricing based on higher volumes yet). PLUS intends to continue it's modified direct sales model and should have the lower prices of the two. Since Outlaw has a purely direct sales model, they could probably compete at or near PLUS's price point, but they'd be extremely vulnerable if a price war ever started in earnest. If prices do drop, the catalyst could be Epson, who don't seem to be building any sort of home theater dealership base, and could simply drop a 720p home theater projector into their online business/computer channel, where margins are slim and pricing is cutthroat.

I'm waiting for Outlaw's next update for an indication if they still plan to jump in the front projection space.

-avi

[This message has been edited by Avi (edited June 18, 2002).]

Avi, you crack me up

How small is your tiny basement home theater that you can have a 84" 4:3 screen, but a 2' deep 80" RP would 'dominate the room'?
Do you always roll up your screen because it 'dominates you' when nothing's on?
I bet your screen doesn't even roll up.

A black RP screen looks better when off then a white or gray FP screen too IMO.

And on top of that, I have a decorative blanket I hang over the screen when off to absorb the rear reflections from my speakers which greatly improves sound quality when my HT is in 'audiophile mode'.

Hard to do that w/ a FP screen. Roll up version or not. You may think that's off-topic, but a display's only a part of a HT chain, and every link interacts with eachother and can't just be ignored as if it's a 'diff. topic'.

If you could have a GIANT screen in your HT that looked as good as your Piano (or better) it would be a better HT in your mind.

But say that screen covered so much wall area that you had to place small bookshelf speakers on your floor to have audio, you would NOT be improving your overall HT system. All the 'links in the chain matter.

You say you're not going to go off topic anymore because you don't like my comments on a $3,000 HD-RPTV being better than you $3,000 FP and have nothing to defend yourself judgement with.
But then you proceed to mention your website and reviews of projectors from the show you went to.

How's that NOT ANY LESS off topic to an Outlaw projector thread??

This thread's main topic has run it's course loooong ago (that being the suggestion LAST YEAR that Outlaw make a digital FP, and Outlaw obviously not having made one), so who cares about how the topic has slightly drifted now?

I'm stating how FP in general (from Outlaw or otherwise) is worse than RP in most respects other than size -though not even that in your small 4:3 screen case.

And since you mention you web site and posted a link, I checked it out -despite it not being this thread's topic either.

I got cracked up again when I see the' askavi' question on the main page.
The question is asking about 'big screens' and when to jump in since the technology keeps changing.

In your now clearly narrow front projection only view of the phrase 'big screen' (a term almost always refering to RPTVs) you don't mention screen sizes, distance from screen, or RP vs. FP features and flaws.

No, instead you describe what kind of FP you can get for diff. levels of money, and nothing more.

I like this qoute "Up your needs to full, native 1080i HDTV resolution (1920x1080i, which requires a 1920x1080 progressive-capable device), you have a much longer wait, as I know of nothing coming on the short term horizon."

Uh... no you don't need a 1080p system to display 1080i -only in your narrow digital microdisplay only mind is that true.

My $3,000 'big screen' Mitsu. you're probably sick of hearing about DOES do 1080i. Well, to be fully honest, not quite full 1080i from the 7" CRTs, but close enough for it's size and my seating distance for it not to matter if it could do 100% 1080i.

Too bad you either didn't know this, or decided to NOT let the questioner know about the better contrast, price and resolution of HD RPTV's, and only mentioned digital FP systems.

Very nice propaganda.

Come on, guys, this has long ago turned into a weiner wagging contest. Entertaining as it is, I don't think either of you is going to convince the other of his opinion. Just let it go, will you?

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Evan Powell has a good summary of the low-end projector market in his Infocomm show report (posted at his site http://www.projectorcentral.com ).

-avi

[This message has been edited by Avi (edited June 18, 2002).]

Well put Matthew, no more weiner wagging guys. I still stand by my original remarks that if Outlaw could match the quality or even exceed the pj's that have been mentioned with full hdtv capability at an Outlaw price I would be very very interested.

Avi-

What can you tell me about that Faroudja D-ILA projector they had at the show?

I take it that setup took full advantage of the DVI input/output from the scaler/DVD transport to the projector?

What were the results? I talked to a Faroudja exec back in February and he was bragging all about how it was better than CRT, and how "You just haven't seen what DVD is capable of," and bragged about it staying "completely digital."

So can you get specific about it?

lotus_j,

I missed the Faroudja combo at the show, so I can't comment on its performance. It's such an expensive solution that it will have limited impact on the "if you have to ask" crowd. It is somewhat significant because it provides one of the few ways to keep your digital signal digital from DVD to display.

-avi

Anyone care to weigh in on the DLP RPTV sets that are starting to come out?

I just watched a Mitsu 65" for a while and it looked pretty darn good. Samsung and others are introducing much lower cost (and smaller - 42") table top sets that use DLP (same chip as the Mitsu) and so it seems that the extremely high price is more marketing than manufacturing driven.

Any good pointers/discussions as to the relative merits of DLP vs. CRT in a rear projection setup?

Oh - and one other thing, more on topic - what if Outlaw were first to market with a low cost 3 chip DLP projector?

Charlie

PS - This set uses the 1280x720 chip.

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited July 09, 2002).]

Oh - and one other thing, more on topic - what if Outlaw were first to market with a low cost 3 chip DLP projector?

Charlie

What is your definition of "low cost?" 3 chips or not and over $5K is primarily margin. That's the same problem with the single chip versions. Retail on the InFocus models of $4K - $5K is overpriced for the result - especially at 848x480(600) pixels on the screen.

The single chip 848x480 should be $1800 on the street, then maybe a 3 chipper for $4K - $5K would be very interesting. It does not need to be feature "bulked-up" or built for movie house applications or work in a well lighted room, etc. It could be (1) manual focus, (2) 3 inputs only - composite, S, and component – no PC input, (3) optional DVI or 1394 at some future date with an add-on card, (4) NO audio, (5) split light source from a single lamp with at least 800 L, (6) reasonably priced bulb, (7) reasonably small package, < 15 lbs, (8) with no color wheel or motor - maybe 3 1280x720 DMDs, (9) 2, 3, or 4 small, low velocity cooling fans for getting the heat out, and (10) no de-interlacing chip - let the DVD player or Set Top Box (STB) or tape deck do it for the sources. (Well OK, we need one, a DI, if we allow composite and S-Video inputs for convenience. The DCDi would be ok –remember the source.) Additional/primary sources would be over-the-air broadcast, DirectTV, and HD Tape which should be direct in at 480p, 720p, or 1080i (1080p some day) only on the component input. We would worry about cable through the STB when they (cable providers) stop whining produce some quality product. A remote control to tweak the picture would be nice but not a necessity. It could be done with buttons on the projector – not convenient, but low cost. Limit throw distance and picture size to 20’ and 100” respectively. If you want more picture size, you have money and way too much space – go somewhere else.

Put the family on bread and water, cut the snacks, take the cars from the 20'something kids, get out the bikes, and sign me up. Where do I make the reservation?

The point here is that there is still a large void out there for a quality front projector at a reasonable price. The virtues of the CRT are moot – they are just too big. LCOS could be relevant if the manuf. can figure out how to make them in quantity. This includes JVC who is just way over the edge on cost, i.e., we only need to pay for R&D and big margins for so long. The only issues with DMD/DLP are cost and black level, and both are being improved by TI. It still looks like the technology to deliver the home theater experience for the masses.

I noticed that the Outlaw's new product will be another amp. An easy choice – and it fills a small hole in their line. But please, IMHO, another DVD player that plays every disk known to mankind is a waste. IT’S a DVD PLAYER, i.e., a good NTSC box. I bought a second one a few weeks ago – a new Sony progressive scan for $200. It looks fine on my XBR (for now), but neither is HD. Even with the Sony XBR on a STB delivering OTA HD broadcast, it is not HD. Looks good – better than NTSC – but not HD. That’s the DVD space. Maybe in a few years the “blue stuff” will be available, but until then – it’s DVD. We still lack a HD projected picture that cost less to buy than a decent car, and that’s where the market and work could be for the Outlaws. Projection is cost effective solution for space, HD, and the theater experience. I keep beating this drum because there is a void out there. The Holy Grail should be a front (or rear) projected 1920x1080p picture on an 80” screen with HD-DVD, but that will be longer than we should wait for something better than digital NTSC.




[This message has been edited by JDB001 (edited July 11, 2002).]

Charlie,

As I posted above, the Samsung DLP sets I saw at the Home Entertainment Show were extremely impressive. I'm sure that was at least in part because they were over-driven (see my article at Secrets http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_2/hifi-show-ny-wrap-up-greengart.html ), but the use of TI's much higher contrast HD2 chips was a more significant factor. In addition to "black" blacks and fully saturated colors, as with all fixed pixel displays, convergence was perfect and the images looked extremely sharp. The sets are 18" deep tabletop designs, which ought to be extremely WAF and decorator friendly with the right marketing campaign (which should include getting entertainment center furniture manufacturers to create complementary units).

JDB001,

The 3 chip DLP idea has been thrown around a lot on the public forums (just try to avoid rainbow discussions on http://www.avsforum.com ), but I think you're the first to suggest it here - and it's a great idea. If my component costs are correct, Outlaw should be able to put together a 3 chip (HD2 1280x720) projector with processing from DVDO or Faroudja, hit a $10K price point, and still make decent margins.

Anything less than $10K probably isn't realistic, and even $10K won't satisfy the potential projector masses - those folks will be better served by PLUS or InFocus. But an Outlaw 3 chip HD DLP at the same price point as the Sharp 9000u would be a revelation to the high end of the market.

-avi

[This message has been edited by Avi (edited July 11, 2002).]