"I'm talking MEMS technology in general. And no, it's not quantum physics, but where else can you swivel a mirror at 5kHz for years without even oiling the hinges...."

Heh... yeah, true... but if they could oil them maybe there'd be no more stuck pixels?? Or if they had no hinges you'd eliminate the prob. too. The GLV does this and it's a MEMS design. LCoS solves this in another way.

Hmm... maybe teflon hinges for the future DLP chips? I'll just go email TI and tell 'em to do that. -heh

regarding 3 chip convergence -
"Up to a point, but any time you have 3 optical systems there is the potential. If I were a betting person I'd bet the DLP theater systems have a convergence adjustment (maybe even a mechanical one) somewhere."

It'd have to be mechanical if they did, but they don't. Neither do LCD displays.
The chips are all mounted in one housing designed to place them all exactly where they're supose to go, and they can't move. If the convergence isn't off when built, it'll never ever shift from perfect.

It'd be like you being worried about the chips on your motherboard moving around. They just can't in anyway what-so-ever.

"I'm actually on the fence - a spinning color wheel isn't really cool either, but overall I think it seems to be a better solution by a narrow margin."

Is that 'cuz you're worried about 3 chip convergence problems that don't exist? I'll try to find a link to a 3 chip module so you can see what it looks like...

"The other stuff like bulb life etc. that folks complain about are non-issues to me. Just change the doggone lamp!"

It's not the 5 minutes it takes to change a lamp... it's...

1) They're SUPER hot. Living in AZ this sucks bigtime as we only have summer and super-summer here.
2) They need fans to cool them which makes noise at least to some extent, and vents that typical leak some bulb light out. Added parts and design trouble.
3) They cost hundreds to replace.
4) They're all very fragile super high pressure bulbs. You never know when they'll 'pop', you just hope they last what they're rated.Get a fingerprint on 'em and they'll explode. If the fan doesn't cool them well enough (or if the power goes out or someone turns the system to off instead of standby) they'll explode.
5) They don't make perfect 6500K light and the light still needs to be split into RGB.

RF bulbs and/or laser would solve almost all these issues or at least improve them a lot.

Maybe, but I still doubt it. There may not be any way to move the chps, but without exception every precision optical system I've been around (astronomy is one of my hobbies, I just enjoy music) always gets out of alignment and has to be adjusted. I would guess the elusive 'adjustment screw' is somewhere else in the optical system, which is pretty complex with all the lenses, prism, etc.

Or maybe the fact that the distances involved are short and the pixels are (relatively) large mitigates the need for extremely accurate alignment. In any case nothing stays perfectly aligned. It may be small enough not to matter much - I don't know, but I'd think a (non - home) theater system would be more demanding. I just really hate it when I see color fringing in a black and white movie or predominately grayscale scene.

And as we've already discussed, the color wheel isn't exactly the most elegant solution I've ever heard of either, but I really do like the idea of a single optical system if possible.

As for the lamps, heat is an issue I suppose, but the DLP RPTV I was able to view was silent as far as I could tell - maybe the bigger cabinet (compared to FP) allows more control of light and sound leakage. And it seems like color temperature is also a non-issue since gamut is (or can be) controlled by the filter wheel, as HT projectors have no clear filter sections.

One thing I really like is the fact that the colors won't shift like CRTs can with age. Once in a while you pop in a new lamp (keep one or two around) and that's it.

If you think about it (and we seem to agree on this) the whole glowing phosphor idea is pretty hokey.

The TI three chip DLP system used in theaters has only one lens- not three. The three chips, used to produce red, green and blue, have their colors combined before entering the single lens used for projection onto the screen- therefore no convergence problems. This is pure digital technology, not analog.

I tend to agree with Charlie - there will be some convergence problem, even if the combined beam is through a single lense, it must be aligned at the start to over-lay correctly. But it should not be much of a problem with careful design and reasonable quality components in the projector light path, i.e., hold down the plastic content. For a home projector limiting the screen size to 70" - 120" diagonal I'll bet it could be done without expensive labor to align the system - no alignment necessary. A clean, simple design, straight-forward rectangular case, 3 chip DLP at 1280x720 would start to be worth the $10K+ being extracted for the current single chip "spinners" that do not even use the newest SCR wheel technology. The headache crowd would not have anything to complain about other than maybe the lack of full HD horizontal and vertical resolution. Full HD resolution in a projector - now I could go for that - a 3 chip DLP at 1920x1080p for $10K. The promise of "true" HD in the home without the projector being as big as the couch (as in CRTs).

"Maybe, but I still doubt it. There may not be any way to move the chps, but without exception every precision optical system I've been around (astronomy is one of my hobbies, I just enjoy music) always gets out of alignment and has to be adjusted."

You confuse the 3 display chips with the single optical output lens. Like 'steves' just tried to explain to you also.

"-Or maybe the fact that the distances involved are short and the pixels are (relatively) large mitigates the need for extremely accurate alignment."

No, the fact that the chips don't move at ALL means they need NO alignment.

"In any case nothing stays perfectly aligned."

Like I tried to relate to you before... the chips on you computer's motherboard don't un-align do they????
The 3 display chips I'm talking about whether LCD, DLP, GLV, or LCoS are all just computer chips that have their leads soldered to a one piece board/housing. No chip can move out of alligment from the others.

"I just really hate it when I see color fringing in a black and white movie or predominately grayscale scene."

Yes, that does suck. I totally agree. 3 chip displays can't EVER do that though. Hell.. if you threw a 3 chip projector across the room...
1) It'd break (duh)
2) The chips would STILL be alligned (unless the whole chip housing cracked open, but you probably couldn't even do that without hitting it with a hammer or something).

"-but I really do like the idea of a single optical system if possible."

As steves' said, there's only ONE lens in a 3 chip system.

Maybe you're thinking of CRT projectors, and you think a 3 chip projector has 3 lenses that need to line up. They don't.

Haven't you ever seen a picture even of an LCD projector? www.projectorcentral.com

They're ALL 3 chip systems, and ALL only have one output lens (which can't get un-aligned except with the screen (which can happen to ANY projector design), or out of focus (which, again.. can happen to ANY projector design), but even those can hardly happen if nothing touches the projector.

"-And it seems like color temperature is also a non-issue since gamut is (or can be) controlled by the filter wheel, as HT projectors have no clear filter sections."

DLP's don't have perfect color. Some are close. Close enough some might say (I might say 'close enough' for some myself), but in the past 3 chip LCD has always bettered DLP in color accuracy.

I had the Plus Piano for a 10 day trial. The color was pretty good (it has no clear segment), but the CRT I bought when I returned the Piano is much better.

I haven't seen any DLP's with that new 'spiral color wheel', so that might be damn near perfect, but a spinning wheel won't ever be as accurate as overlaying the three RGB colors as in three chip systems.
Why do you think TI uses 3 chip systems in their Theater projectors?

"One thing I really like is the fact that the colors won't shift like CRTs can with age."

CRT's don't shift with age. They shift from movement and heating/cooling cycles, and it's a very very tiny amount.
I tweak my CRT's guns about every month or so. It just takes a few minutes. Do it during a commercial and you'll never call it an 'issue'.

In fact I watched the B&W classic 'The Hustler' just last night (I give it a 9 out of 10) and there was zero color fringing. None. (Great sharp DVD transfer too!) and it's been at least a month since I tweaked the CRTs.

"Once in a while you pop in a new lamp (keep one or two around) and that's it."

You know you just described ~$1,000 in bulbs don't you? My CRT was $3,000, and should last 10 years at least. No bulb worries at all.

"If you think about it (and we seem to agree on this) the whole glowing phosphor idea is pretty hokey."

Hokey? How so? I guess I don't agree.

It might 'sound' outdated compared to all these new digital solutions, but my 65" CRT Mitsu. has better color than DLP (or 'as good' at worst), no motion blur like past DLP's I've seen, totally solid pixel structure even at 'too close' viewing distance, 1080i resolution, under $3,000 new, CRT guns that should last a decade based on several decades of longevity reports, and only needs occational few minute allignment tweaking (once a month at the very most).

If I listed these traits off and said it was a DLP set everyone would freak out over how amazing that would be.

Downsides... It's cabinet is 24" deep.
But any 65" screen is big in width x height, and 'up against the wall' might not be the optimal distance for someone with a thinner DLP rear PJ, or LCD or Plama direct view set, or front projector and screen.

If my 65" was only 3" deep, I'd still have it pulled out the ~30" it is now. I mounted my 80" screen I had when I bought the Piano this way since up against the wall was too far away (my seating is set for optimal sound so I couldn't just move the couch closer in).

I attached the screen to a removable frame (mounted to my 32" tv I also had in the room at the time). Took a long time to build and worked great. I was ticked I had to send the Piano back 'cuz of rainbows, but the CRT while slightly smaller screen, is much better in every other way.

There's the 'burn in' issue too, but the screen adjustements on my set and also on my Dish Net HD rec. allow me to fill the whole screen (like when watching Sat. or Over-the-air TV) in a very natural looking way. A little strech at the sides and a little cropping overall. Works great.

My buddy's got a 8 year old 50" 4:3 CRT RP, and for the past 2 years watches almost nothing but letterboxed DVD's on it. When he flips to local TV, I saw for myself that there's zero burn in.

This was my only worry with buying CRT (that and digital connections), but in the past year I have no burn in at all, and my wife and I play videogames on it for hours on it, and watch all movies at their correct aspect ratio so almost all of them have letterboxing. No damage at all.

I like the technology of an all digital solution, but they still can't top CRT in rear projection in almost any way, and it's still got some negative 'issues' in the front projection realm, but front projection (whether CRT or display chip) will always have 'the room is the cabinet' issue which can be tough to deal with in everayday use (unless you're a vampire and like your room pitch black at all times).

And for anyone who says they watch their front projector with some room light at times... While of course you can do this, it's just a plain fact that your picture is VERY washed out compared to a RP set.

CRT RPj and CRT FPj is not an issue. It does not matter the performance - they are to big and heavy - case closed. It's old tech on it's dying legs. If one does not have crane to install it or an extra 10 - 15 sq. ft. of space and a blank wall to give up permanently, which is the case with a majority of installations, then CRTs are a moot point. The only reason they exist is it's 50 yr. old technology that they know how to make for a few hundred bucks, and the buyers are unaware of alternatives. Front projection technology should be pushed and pushed hard - it is the future. Maybe plasma, but I doubt the price will get reasonable anytime soon for the 50" and more screens (and the technology is inherently heavy). Anything smaller is just a "big TV" and only verging on the theater experience. RP (box) DLPs and LCDs are OK if only to get the volumes up and cost down. I saw one of the new Samsung RP DLPs at Best-Buy the other day for around $3K using the new 1280x720 chips. Product volume is an issue, but you can't tell me that a "dinky" in size FPj at less than 1/20 the size should cost three times the price. We need for Sony to field a new "diffraction ribbon" system and get some competition going with DLPs. CRT Pjs are only for bidding time - not future market relevant.

JDB001,
You crack me up.
You say -"CRT RPj and CRT FPj is not an issue."

Sorry, but that's just YOUR narrow-minded opinion.

"It does not matter the performance - they are to big and heavy - case closed."

Well, performace actually does matter to pretty much everyone but you. And "case closed"? You seem to have 'control issues' to deal with.

"It's old tech on it's dying legs."
Half true. It's old tech. It's not even close to 'dying' though in rear projection, but you it of course is in front projection (which seems to be all you can think about).
Remember the basic design of all our cars are VERY old tech, but just like CRT has been refined continually over the years, and while a gas-powered car will be replaced with one or many of the high-tech alternatives that exist today... it ain't even close to 'dying' either.

"If one does not have crane to install it or an extra 10 - 15 sq. ft. of space and a blank wall to give up permanently, which is the case with a majority of installations, then CRTs are a moot point."


A crane? You gatta be joking 'cuz that's just dim. The delivery guys just rolled my 65" CRT into my house. Took 5 minutes. When I remodeled my HT room I just rolled the set into my kitchen for a month.

If it was a lighter 65" DLP It'd still be over 100 pounds and being an large shape, I'd have to have gotten my wife to help me carry it. Either way...no practical 'real world' difference.

"The only reason they exist is it's 50 yr. old technology that they know how to make for a few hundred bucks,-"

Well, that and the fact that it produces the best picture available for that low price, but you made it clear 'performance' doesn't matter to you.

"-and the buyers are unaware of alternatives."

While most consumers have no idea what alternatives they have about pretty much ANY electronics, the alternatives that exist should be right next to the CRT's to compare.

When I bought my $3K 65" Mitsu last year, there were two DLP sets for sale right there in the showroom. Both 50", had poorer black level, fast motion blur, and were $10K and $12K. Even if I had no idea what DLP was, the choice was still obvious.

At this point in time DLP sets are MUCH closer to CRT in performance and price, BUT they're still not there yet.
That new Samsung is still more costly, poorer color, poorer black level and smaller screen size. Check out the review of it in the latest Sound n' Vision.

"Front projection technology should be pushed and pushed hard - it is the future."

You forget or missed the point I made about the 'room being the cabinet' in front projection. Most people want to use their displays with room light on. Some can't even make their room's black enough for the occations they want to watch something at a FP's optimal performance.
This means FP will NEVER be 'the future'. It will always be a fringe segment of display technology.

"Maybe plasma, but I doubt the price will get reasonable anytime soon-"

Like I said, it will probably NEVER get down in price compared to equal performace alternatives, and it's life span is questionable too.

"-RP (box) DLPs and LCDs are OK if only to get the volumes up and cost down. I saw one of the new Samsung RP DLPs at Best-Buy the other day for around $3K using the new 1280x720 chips. Product volume is an issue, but you can't tell me that a "dinky" in size FPj at less than 1/20 the size should cost three times the price."

The size difference is mostly a plastic box. The main costs of these things are in the electrinic 'guts'. A tiny DLP FP is 'all guts' and like compact laptop computers.. costs more to pack so much into a tiny space. Also the optics of a FP are different and a VERY costly element. Also, a FP has to be FAAAAR brighter than a RP set. Smaller isn't cheaper.

We need for Sony to field a new "diffraction ribbon" system and get some competition going with DLPs."


Uh... I was the one who brought this technology up. And I said it was intended first for movie theaters, and later home systems, and it'll be years before there's any chance of that happening.

"CRT Pjs are only for bidding time - not future market relevant."

Shall I get out the ruler? We could settle all this for once and for all.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

No need - it's over.

Matthew, do you have a penis obsession or what buddy?

This isn't the first time you've chimed in with cracks about 'pissing contests' or some such penis related subject. Does the size of my posts make you feel nervous and 'funny' inside?? hehe

Just messin' with ya' (I know my car's as tiny as yours so we're both comfortable in our manhood -heh), but it's like you think you're breaking up some kinda wild Neanderthals who're at each other's throats or somethin'?

It's just a debate. No big deal. No blood drawn or anything.

It's not my fault I'm good at making my points (when I feel the need to counter someone who basically says CRT is worthless old technology ignoring all it's still current massive benefits), or that I don't feel the least bit bad about correcting people who get something wrong in what they post (like two here kept doing about 3-chip convergence error -that doesn't exist, etc...).

You have anything to say related to projectors or what?

I mean that's what the thread's about and you obviously clicked here to see 'what's up'... even though you know as well as I do Outlaw is NOT making ANY projector any time soon. (or if they are, won't announce it till it's ready to ship).

Personally I think the recent comments here might help those who are looking to set up a new HT (which might be a TON of Outlaw customers) and would be interested in hearing about the current state of the art in ALL forms of displays (with their pros and cons).
Is CRT perfect? No.
Is any digital display? No... but here's what I think about all of them... (see previous posts).

That's info's helpful IMO.