Hello All, I posted a question a little while ago, but it seems to have disappeared. I'll try to keep this short in case the other post shows up.
I'm looking for a list of all of your favorite RP, FP, et. al., video systems. I'm trying to find something in a large (60" or greater) format that compares with tube projection systems. I've looked pretty extensively and just can't seem to find an alternative to tubes without some serious limitations or compromises. (i.e. dark picture, off axis viewing, sharpness and accuracy, etc.) I must not be seeing the best options out there. Please tell me your recommendations, both price as no object and 'practical', so that I may form a truer knowledge base as to my options. I appreciate your help and advice.
Thanks,
Mix

Avi,
a poorly adjusted picture (not uncommon at shows) is very diff. than 'overdriven DLP' (which doesn't exist).
Shoulda' just described the Samsung's picture problems rather than sum it up by saying the sets 'looked great but overdriven' like you originally did.

Hello All, I posted a question a little while ago, but it seems to have disappeared. I'll try to keep this short in case the other post shows up.
I'm looking for a list of all of your favorite RP, FP, et. al., video systems. I'm trying to find something in a large (60" or greater) format that compares with tube projection systems. I've looked pretty extensively and just can't seem to find an alternative to tubes without some serious limitations or compromises. (i.e. dark picture, off axis viewing, sharpness and accuracy, etc.) I must not be seeing the best options out there. Please tell me your recommendations, both price as no object and 'practical', so that I may form a truer knowledge base as to my options. I appreciate your help and advice.
Thanks,
Mix

MixFixJ,

You said -"Even with all of the improvements to FP and RP systems, I still find the images darker than I'd like, the viewing 'sweet spot' much smaller than I'd like, and the pictures just don't 'seem' as sharp or accurate as tube systems. I just haven't seen an RP or FP system that compares to a tube system. The only time that I've seen an FP system that I was impressed with, was when I was doing a show in conjuction with a GE Light Valve projector with a 40', yes foot, image.

Hmmm... when you say FP and RP that ONLY means Front Projection, and Rear Projection, but I think you 'probably' mean 'digital microdisplay' front or rear projection right??? Is that what you mean?

When you say 'none compares to a tube system', do you mean a 3 gun CRT tube systems or, 'direct view' tube, or BOTH???

Very confusing question without knowing for sure what you mean since both FP and RP are available as digital and TUBE based. My 65" RP is tube based BTW -as are most RP's.

One thing that sucks about all FP systems is that room you watch them in becomes the 'box' (like the box a RP is in) so any light in the room (or bouncing around the room from off the screen) is going to screw up contrast. This effect might be what you mean by 'too dark'???

Black velvet walls and zero lights will show you how good any FP system can be, but I don't wanna live in a room like that.
More FP owners 'comprimise' by having dark-ish colored walls. White walls is very un-good.

Digital microdisplays use a light bulb for it's light output, and are typically MUCH brighter than tube based FP (CRT), so I don't really get what you're saying or thinking?

RP's (whether microdisplay or CRT based) should both be as bright as needed. You might not think they're bright enough when set properly, but it's not like volume control 'preference' in audio.

You can "Overdrive" the CRT guns and make the picture far too blindingly bright than it should ever be -and that SHOULD be brighter than you'd ever want (I hope!)

With micordisplay systems, the bulb is always on at full light output, so you set contrast and brightness to adjust how much light gets deflected away from the screen by the microdisplay chip/s (that's ALL the chip is for).

You can set that wrong too though and output a picture that's too bright/incorrect contrast, but you can never "Overdrive" the microdisplay or bulb. You're never changing the bulb's brightness.

Have you ever 'tested' any of these sytems that you think are too dark? Where have you seen them? In stores?

All it takes is a disc that has some video test screens like Avia, Vid. Esentials, and many THX movies even. This will show you how they display the deepest black-through the gray scale-to it's brightest white.
Stores often don't have the systems set right (or customers screw them up). Do you have crappy flouresent lighting in your room like most stores do?

Except for horrible sets like the LCD-based Sony Grand Wega (which can't come close to hitting black) you should find them all pretty much bright enough to be correct (tube or digital).

You're probably just used to direct view tube TV's that can get VERY bright without as much damage to them. It won't be set 'correctly' though -That's part of why movies don't usually look like film on direct view sets.

Do you like to watch movies in a brightly lit room or something??? You shouldn't have a prob. if you don't.

With FP, the only 'sweet spot' issue is really a matter of what screen you use (hi-gain screens can produce 'hot spotting'), NOT the display itself.

You could project any FP onto a flat white wall and it would have a perfectly uniform picture as seen from anywhere in the room.

Rear Projection technically does have a sweet spot problem, but IMO very little/none in practical use w/ modern sets.

Set up so the center of the set's about eye level when sitting (pretty much what all floor standing RP's are set to), and sitting at a decent distance (I'm at ~12' from my 65" Mitsu.) and the picture is perfectly uniform within a fairly wide horizontal window.
I'd say ~6'-7' window (about as wide a window as a typical couch). If you're much farther off center than that it will get dark edges the futher away you go.
But WHY would you ever sit way off center??? Your audio will be totally screwed up too sitting like that. Leave those spots for guests and children who don't know any better.

'Real world' use, and a typical HD-RPTV will be a VERY uniform picture.

Maybe you're seeing them all at stores where you're standing taller then the sets, and standing closer than you'd actually be in you home?

As far as 'sharp' and 'accurate'. Well, inaccurate HOW?
Set correctly my 65" Mitsu (since you wanted an example) is very accurate in every way a picture is judged. Not perfect of course, but it's flaws are tiny. You can have a set maxed out by an ISF tech, and it'll be damn near perfect.

As far as 'sharp'... uh.. you'd have to see some HD on this set. Too bad there ain't much available, but that's not the set's fault. PBS is always showing travel video in HD. Helicopter overhead shots of all diif. places around the world.

Pretty boring to really watch for very long, but VERY VERY sharp, and a higher res than a direct view tube can display -not that it needs to display that much 'cuz a direct view is so much smaller you can't see the diff. unless you sit too close to it.

JVC's digital LCoS chips (currently used only in FP systems) are the highest res. you can get right now, and have a very tight fill factor. Invisible unless you're sitting stupidly close.

What exactly are you looking for?

It's not about which technology's the best. It's about in the end what has the best picture and is it big enough, easy enough to live with, and cheap enough to afford.

Like speakers.. ribbons, cones, domes, or panels? It's about which sounds the most accurate, and you can afford.

Performance and cost.

Right now I consider my 65" HD-Mitsu. to be great performance (great black level, awesome color incl. 'true red'), big enough (not as big as I'd like, but it's big), easy to live with (plug it in and set it correctly), and I still haven't paid for it (got a one year no pay deal).

A FP can be bigger, but the diff. between an 80" FP hung on the front wall, and a 65" 2-3' closer in the form of a RP isn't much of a diff in size.
Picture-wise the CRT based Mitsu. is true HD res. and better contrast than a FP can have (unless no ambient light and black room).

FP can be worth all the extra hassles and compromises IMO if you go to a much larger screen than available in RP (I'd like to see an 80" digital RPTV though), but then on top of all the inherent troubles of FP, it can also be hard to set up your audio correctly with main speakers w/ 4'-6' feet of air around them and ~7-8' apart at the max.

With a screen that big you'd have to place it too high probably (which screws up it's uniformity) or else you'll be putting the main speakers too close to the front wall so they don't block the screen (depends on the speakers though). And lots of people place their mains too far apart anyway, incorrectly using the center speaker to 'fill the gap'.

Off topic, but ...If you don't sit way off center (and again... why would you?) you don't need a center speaker. If your main speakers aren't faaaar more open sounding, and inherently perfectly matching compared to any center speaker then they're set up wrong.
If they don't image as sharply as a (so-called) center speaker, then they're either set up wrong or they aren't very good speakers.

Ryan,
Thanks for the info. All good stuff. I'm going to keep this short as I'm having trouble with the net and this is the third time I've tried to reply today!
Yes, I am comparing alternate formats to direct view (I think this is the correct term, I take instruction well) monitors. I'll be back with specific questions and responses to your post later. I just wanted to thank you for replying.
by the way, I want to hear about the eARTwo amp when you get it. It's very intrieging.
Mix

Heh,
I wanna hear it too!! I'm going to be mating it to my Outlaw 950, but I'm almost afraid to tell that to people outside this forum!

A very hi-end amp like this should only (IMO and many others) be conected to a high quality passive preamp, and killer DAC/transport. IOW, some very snobby 'audiophile' gear! I'm not that rich yet! -heh

I'll probably get ripped apart for mating a low priced A/V pre/pro to a mint state of the art amp.

No offence Outlaws. I like my 950, and it's a great price, but it's not 'super clean' HI end, but neither are other more costly A/V pre/pros.

Can't buy it all at once though!

I missed it before but it looks like you're looking for ~60" picture?

That's CRT RPTV 100% IMO. You said you just saw a Mitsu 65". That's just what I have (though they make diff. 'levels' of them).

The best you can get are probably the Pioneer Elite's, but they SO costly, I just can't find them worth it. Toshiba makes good sets too. For much cheaper than the Elite's you could get one of the Tosh or Mitsu. and pay a few hundred bucks to have an ISF tech guy max it out. That'll look better than an Elite set up on your own.

I haven't bothered w/ that myself though as I'm totally happy w/ my Mitsu.'s picture -much better than the Plus Piano DLP front projector I had for 10 days, not that the Piano is bad or anything, just for the exact same price it was a slightly bigger, but poorer contrast, less sharp, high future bulb costs, and my wife and I saw color wheel rainbows w/ it. I'm VERY glad I didn't buy it when they had a no refund policy!
DO NOT buy a color wheel system unless you can return it -in case you see the rainbow efect.

The only real flaw w/ my picture is that lots of junk on local digital TV is encoded like crap, and sat. TV wasn't meant to be blown up that big.

Sadly, dull PBS 1080i loops are the best things ever seen on my set.
The best of DVD's in prog. scan (480p) look almost as good though, and much better than a movie theater. Like a perfect day one film release!

Don't let someone tell you front projection looks more film-like than rear projection either. They're just biased, and narrow-mindedly thinking 'cuz movie theaters are front projection, then that must be the best for at home too.

Remember -a movie theater ISN'T a worthy "point of reference" for picture quality, and ESP. not for sound quality.

You can probably find a great 65" for ~$2,500 now. Under $2,000 for ~55"-60".

As for audio... I'll probably never stop trying for better.

I really think DLP or LCoS (liquid crystal on silicon) will be the future along w/ fully digital inputs (looks like new FireWire "B" should be that input IMO).

The new DLP sets coming out should be great, but they're still overpriced. Slowly CRT sets will be fazed out when DLP or other microdisplay designs finally hit CRT prices and below.

Some people love how Plasma sets look, but personally I think they have a poor fill factor (screen door effect around the pixels), and I don't trust their life span.
They're VERY overpriced IMO too.

If you like a direct view picture though and want bigger, Plasma's probably the closest 'look'. Very un-film-like IMO, but maybe not yours?

In FP, Panasonic (I'm pretty sure) is making some VERY cheap units that use LCD if you want a much bigger than 65" picture for the same price. The pixel fill factor is poor, and contrast stinks compared to a 65" CRT though, but some people just want BIG -and for cheap.

Plus you have to worry about continual bulb cost, minor fan noise, additional screen cost, proj. mounting, long cable runs from video players, etc...

Good Morning Ryan,
As far as 'theatre quality'video is concerned, my current set-up visually is 'better'. Sony XBR and Sony NS700P DVD. If theatre is the reference, then I don't like the standard. Audio wise, it will be a while before I can surpass my HT outside of the home. You mentioned optimum spacing of my main speakers. That won't be a problem as the correct spacing for my speakers is about 10 feet (three meters) toe-in. I do want to keep my center as I feel ( I could be wrong) that 5.1, or 6.1, is mixed with specific audio remnants for the center channel and I don't want to lose those. All of my speakers are matched and sound very good to me. i've calibrated the system and the room and it sounds GOOD! I'm currently using the 1050 as a pre for processing (waiting for a 950, and may go with the Anthem) and I use a separate pre for 2 channel listening. My mains are bi-amped (matched amps) and my surrounds are bi-wired. Don't let anyone criticize your using your 950 with the eARTwo. If you don't like the 950 as a pre, upgrade to a separate pre for 2 channel. Screw 'their' opinions.
You are extremely fervent in your support for RP. You make very good arguments. So much so that I will more closely examine that option. I may just go with a 42" XBR if I can find one without all of the audio add-ons. I haven't seen the feature sets on the soon-to-be-released new XBR's. I really like the direct view image all around. And I already have a nice Bell'Ogetti stand to put it on! It matches my rack. Hey aesthetics are important too. No , they are not my guiding influence. Just a concern.
I have seen both the Elite's and the Mitsu's. I'll look closer.
Thanks for all of the info.
Mix

I don't understand something about that Optoma TV that Charlie linked to. The specs state 1280x720 resolution, but then 1080i is listed as one of the available resolutions. Doesn't 1080i require a resulution of 1920x1080?

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Yeah, for a fixed panel system (like Plasma or DLP)you'd need to 1920X1080, but then you could do 1080P with a line doubler which would be the ultimate IMO -someday!!

They just mean that the set can 'handle' the picture resolution. It's a little marketing trickery is all to make it sound like it can do anything and everything when it really can't.

Everything justs gets changed to the panel's res.

Should still look sharp and solid, but my next set's gonna be 1080P capable -many years from now I'm sure.

I hope they don't make the first HD-DVD's 720P. 'Cuz down the road, they'll probably just come out with 'Super HD-DVD's that can output 1080P, and then we'll all have to re-buy T2 yet again!!!
-heh

And then yet again when the double-super HD-DVDs, at 1620p, come out! ;-)

My point: it doesn't matter what resolution they make HD-DVDs, you're still going to have to buy T2 again.

Although I do wish it would be 1080p (or better... ;-)

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net