Hi all. I had the most frustrating, shocking experience with Hsu customer support today that I am utterly in shock of their solution. The reason I am posting here is to get this off my chest (vent), look for suggestions, and because Outlaw has partnered with Hsu on their subs.

I bought an Hsu VTF-2 sub in 2003, which had 1 year warranty on electronics and 5 year warranty on the woofer only. I had read some problems/reviews online around 1 year after I had already had my sub about the foam surround failing (cracking/splitting). I figured just a few faulty units or people driving them too hard. Well, last October, I notice mine is making a large popping sound with high db output. I send an e-mail to tech support to ask what may be at fault. The voice coil?, amp?, etc. I get a response to check the surround for cracks/integrity. Sure enough, the foam surround has hardened, become very brittle, and cracked/failed. So I ask how much a replacement will be, not knowing it is still under the 5 year warranty (which tech support failed to tell me, despite me telling them when I bought it), and they tell me to contact sales.

So before I did this, I check my original sales receipt and owner's manual, and sure enough it is still under warranty! Yeah for me! So I call sales and explain my problem. They tell me to send in the woofer and they will fix it if possible, or send me a NEW one (key word here). I get an e-mail stating that it cannot be fixed and they will therefore send a NEW replacement at no cost. So today I get the package, open it, and I find a decrepit, dirty, REPAIRED sub in the box that is NOT MINE. They actually sent me a refurbished 5 year old woofer, that looked much worse than my tip-top woofer (besides the cracked surround) when my 5 year old woofer failed simply for being old. I called to complain and they said there must be some mistake. I am about to send pictures at their request when I get a call from them. I answer and they tell me that there was no mistake, that they simply "cannot send everyone the latest and greatest items everytime something breaks as it would put us (them) out of business". He then goes on further about that if they had a new OEM replacement, I would have gotten that, but since they do not, that I should be grateful to get anything because if they did not have this old woofer laying around, I would have had to PAY for a NEW one, despite it being under warranty still. He continued to argue this point with me, and ended by saying, "well, do you want to send the woofer back that works and we will give you your old, broken, one back?"

Unbelievable!!! And the replacement costs $85 only. So in other words, if the OEM woofer cost $85 and they had a new one laying around, they would send that to me, but since they do not, I have to either get used crap, or pay full price (still $85 mind you!) for a comparable woofer that is new.

I would appreciate any imput on this. I did not know what else to do other than file a complaint with the BBB, which I did. I could slander them all over the web, but am waiting to see if they do right with the BBB involved.

p.s. I will post pics of the "replacement" if I can figure it out.

Sorry to hear about your problems, ecniemann. If you need help figuring out how to post pics, PM me...

That is really surprising. These online companies live or die based mainly on having strong customer support. Very unfortunate -- you might try explaining your situation to Pete or Dr. Hsu. Warranties should be honored!

Thanks for the replys guys! Yeah, that was my exact point! I even said to him, "you are going to risk the Hsu name and brand to save $85, lose a customer, and lose all the other customers I tell this story to?" And he still did not waver from his position.

Believe it or not, Pete is who I was speaking with. The odd thing is, today, when I called the first time to complain after being tremendously disappointed opening that package, he was all on my side. Less than 1 hour later, when he called back while I was just about ready to send him the pictures, he must have talked to someone, and all of a sudden it is my problem and I only deserve the crap I received. I am really bummed about this. It just bothers me. It is not even the money! I can easily afford another woofer, it is the principal and the fact that a company I believed in and talked highly about with others could do this. I honestly feel kind of betrayed. Again, I will post pics when more time and keep you updated how this pans out.

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulty. I also have a Hsu and have had no problem with the quality, though as I recall when I bought it they were currently advertising a special discount on their website but when I ordered, I was told the discount was no longer in effect. This didn't change my buying decision, but I was peeved.
I guess we're fortunate that we can now buy well designed Hsu products From a customer oriented company like Outlaw.

I have a VTF3 MKII that I had issue with some time back. The star nut, in which the adjustable feet thread into, became unattached from the cabinet.
When I called Hsu they acted as if they had no idea what I was talking about. On my own I removed the Amp and proceedeed to come up with a fix. After seeing how poorly the adjustable feet mechanism was designed I properly fixed the other 3 as well. This will be my last Hsu product based on my experence although I must say I love the sound it puts out.
On the positive side of direct internet companies, AV123 I had a most pleasant experence. My daughter wanted me to find and buy her some speakers for her home. I ordered 2 B stock speakers from AV123. The discription was " lightly scratched " , a picture showing the scratches was on the web site. After recieving the speakers those scratches were actualy chips in the veneer.There was also a slight noise resonance from 200hz- 120hz. While browseing the AVS site, the owner was posting in the speaker forums. I quickly sent him a PM. Within minutes I recieved a call from him . AV123 promptly , at no added cost nor shipping, sent me 2 more A-stock .
replacements.
You may want to send Peter Marks a PM over at AVS Forums and see if you can't get better treatment. I would think much bussiness is gained or lost over there.

Here are the pics. Hopefully they work. I have not heard anything further yet, but did get confirmation from the BBB that they sent my complaint to Hsu. I will check out the AVS forum if this does not get resolved. Thanks for the comments everyone so far.

Look closely at the dust cap and surround. You can see silicon caulk or something similar to seal cracks/damage. The surround should be perfectly smooth. This one is ridged, different colors even. And look how jacked up it looks with dirt. I really wish I would have taken a picture of my woofer. It looked mint compared to this. I could care less if this woofer technically works. Based on how it looks, it does not look like it would work very long. The white stuff all over the basket, magnet, etc is polyfill. It is in every crack, inside the basket, on the cone, etc. Mine was used for 5 years and had none of this on it.

http://www.dropshots.com/ecniemann#date/2008-05-12/05:14:09

http://www.dropshots.com/ecniemann#date/2008-05-12/05:18:48

Definitely pushes me more towards getting an AV123 MFW-15 to replace my aged Kenwood sub. I liked the VTF3-Mk3 because of the side firing sub, but I don't want to deal with poor support and/or quality issues.

I'd buy a sub from the Outlaws in a heartbeat but all of their big ones are down firing and I need one that is directional as this sub goes behind the seating area.

Hi Guys,

I am definitely saddened that someone would say hurtful things about our company all over the internet and with BBB without first voicing their displeasure to techsupport email first, but please allow me to respond to some of the criticisms.

Let’s get some facts straight first:

1) The woofer that we sent to Eric is not refurbished in any way. It has seen little use, and is in perfect working condition.

2) The woofer that we sent to Eric is the only woofer that we have in our possession that is optimal for the original VTF-2 subwoofer. Newer woofers are optimal only for the newer subwoofers, since newer woofers have different response and capabilities compared to the original.

3) The black coat around the surround was applied by one of our technicians to help improve the longevity of the woofer. The original VTF-2 woofer with foam surround had some issues with the surround splitting, so we applied the coat to help improve the long term reliability.

4) The woofer that Eric had originally sent to us was unrepairable and unuseable. The foam was not rotting, but rather the entire surround was split.

5) The original woofer vendor has been out of business for some time, so no more replacement parts for the original VTF-2 subwoofer other than the one woofer we had.

6) Eric went from a unit that basically did not function at all, to a unit that works perfectly and performs as good as new, for no charge from us.

So my question to Eric is, what do you want:

1) A woofer that is optimal for the original VTF-2 and that has a treated surround for improved long term reliability, OR

2) A brand new woofer that is not optimal for the original VTF-2 and was not designed for the original VTF-2?

We slave day and night, sometimes 6 or 7 days a week and 10-12 hours a day, to support our customers via phone/internet/email. We always try to go out of our way to repair old units to the original spec. So of course I take major offense when someone decides to criticize us all over the place without truly understanding our reasoning behind the decision in the first place.

Please let me know which option you want, 1) or 2), and I will pass it along to techsupport.

Sincerely,

Pete
Hsu Research

Bill, note that the gold brass feet on the VTF Mk2 models were not actually adjustable feet, but rather were supposed to be screwed in all the way.

Apologies for any lacking sales support in the past. My recommendation is to email techsupport with any questions that do not get resolved over the phone.

Sincerely,

Pete
Hsu Research

The Outlaw subs should work very nicely behind the seating area. If anything, having a downfiring woofer may actually help make it less directional in comparison. You don't want the subwoofer to sound directional, you want it to sound non-directional and non-localizeable. With an 80Hz crossover, you should be fine most of the time.

nt

Interesting thread............
Pete when you say isn't that what the 5 year warranty is for? The end of that statement makes it sound like Hsu has done something extra special instead of honoring it's basic obligation. Also it seems any company should keep the required repair parts in stock for the length of the warranty term or be able to supply a proper substitution.
If a company wants to use refurb/used components for warranty repair (I think that is acceptable) they should at least be properly cleaned prior to use. A technician adding the treatment to the surround shows me that Hsu is trying to make an improvement to a component, which is a good thing.

The underlying concern here is that a satisfactory replacement has been found for a woofer that failed (irreparably) under warranty. That much is clear, and both parties seem to agree on it. As for the rest, that seems to be the source of the difficulty. This debate may be best served if the involved parties try to find a way to discuss this further "off-line" (or at least without an audience) before we get too deep in over our heads here. There are two sides of the story that need telling, but ideally they can be exchanged in a calm and gentlemanly manner (everybody "playing nice") and a mutually satisfactory agreement reached.

Pete and Eric, I'd love to see posts from you guys that let us know everybody has gotten things resolved. HSU Research is a company that has made a valuable contribution to the internet-direct speaker industry (and thus to the internet-direct home theater industry), so as gunslingers I think we'd all be glad to see this end well for everyone involved...

Yes Keta, that is what we are supposed to do, I was just pointing out that the subwoofer should be working perfectly and to the original specs (with improved long term reliability), which is the goal of warranty service. The point is that we did have good intentions, even if it wasn't construed that way.

gonk, I did send Eric an email a couple days ago, still waiting to hear back...

(I just want to preface this by stating that I wrote it at work after checking the forums. I will post this and then respond to other posters that were done after I wrote this, but obviously before I posted this).

Pete, I was going to resolve this with you privately, and when the final outcome was settled, I was definitely going to be man enough to post the final outcome on this forum, good or bad. But since you decided to post your private e-mail to me publicly; here we are.

This will be long, so bear with me. The amount of stress this has caused me is in no way proportionate to the $85 I should have just spent on a new woofer, which is what I was going to do in the first place.


(see below e-mail with Hsu tech support in italics)
It works very well in your enclosure. No reason why you should have any problems with the replacement driver. Please call (714)666-9260 to get pricing. Tech support does not deal with pricing.

"ecniemann@juno.com" wrote:
Thanks for the tip, but I think I would rather just replace the woofer. How much is the replacement? Besides having a rubber surround, are there any other differences; basically I want to make sure the woofer/box configuration will remain tuned the same with a different woofer. If this does not fix the popping, how would returns (ie. the woofer) work in this situation?

-- HSU Technical Support wrote:
Our current woofers have rubber surrounds instead of foam. The new woofers should last for a long time. You can order one of those for replacement.

In the meantime, you can try to salvage your existing woofer by applying a thin coat of GE silicone II (clear) to the whole surround, building it up a bit thicker along the crack. Let it cure for 24 hours. It should be as good as new after that.

"ecniemann@juno.com" wrote:
I checked it. Yeah, the surround separated from the frame. It is very brittle and as soon as I touched it, it separated (tore) more, approx 1/4 of the circumference. This does not seem normal to only last 4.5 years and then become so brittle to tear. I have never had a speaker do this. I heard some things on-line about problems with these woofers separating like that. Do you have a compatible replacement (not the same woofer if it will tear this quick), and if so, how much? Or is there an aftermarket replacement that would be compatible (ie. alpine, kenwood, infinity, etc.) that would be the same impedance and work well with this sub's cubic volume and ports?
Thanks, Eric

-- HSU Technical Support wrote:
Most likely the woofer. Check to see if the surround has separated from the cone or frame. Push gently on the surround to see if the surround separates from the cone or frame. Another area to check is to see if the spider has separated from the cone or frame. This is the corrugated cloth inside the frame.

"ecniemann@juno.com" wrote:
Hi, I bought a VTF-2 sub back in May of 2003, so unfortunately it is out of warranty as far as I know. In the last 2 months, it has been popping and crackling with certain DVD's during low frequency peaks. Two movies that come to mind are the short film "Lifted" in Ratatouille, and Transformers during multiple scenes. It does not sound like it is bottoming out, just extremely distorted, like an electrical short, kind of like a scratchy record. I have not increased the gain at all, nor the output from the pre-amp and it is balanced correctly with a Radio Shack SPL meter; slightly hotter than the fronts/rears/center.
I am mainly wondering if the amp is to blame (a short, something loose) or if it is the voice coil or something on the woofer. What would the most likely culprit be and how much would it cost to fix this? I already bought a new sub, but it would be a shame to just throw this one out if it can be fixed relatively cheaply and easily as I could use it elsewhere.
Thanks, Eric
(end of e-mail string)


Since it was covered under warranty, I did not think this would be as big a problem as it turned out to be. I wrote that first post on this forum IMMEDIATELY after talking to you on the phone that day, thus being extremely angry and disgruntled at the time. Was it the best decision I ever made? No, absolutely not! But people do stupid things when angry, myself included, and it did make me feel better since I felt backed into a corner with no help or friends to help me resolve this, and the Outlaw forum seemed the best place to vent, since I respect everyone here fully and have nothing but accolades for Outlaw, their products, customers, and service. It was the ONLY forum/web space I put this info on, because of the support I received here from other members that I was lacking from Hsu, so it was erroneous when you stated that it was “posted all over the web”.

I am probably one of the nicest people anyone would ever meet in person. I have never been in a fist fight in my life, and I HATE confrontation, whether on the web, phone, verbal, public, or whatever, so this kills me that this is going on over $85! My ENTIRE dissatisfaction stemmed from our phone conversation the date of my first post, NOT from Hsu in general or their products.

Here are the facts of that conversation:
1. EVERY reason you gave me for not receiving a new woofer were monetary in nature. You did state the OEM company was no longer in business, and I completely understand that, and would have had no problem with my woofer being fixed (which was not possible) or receiving a NEW one, whether an OEM or comparable replacement. But I cannot be held at fault for conditions that are beyond MY control.
2. It IS USED, you state that. How can you vouch for where or how this woofer has been used in the last 5 years? I apologize for assuming it was refurbished, but you cannot blame me based on the appearance of it!
3. You did tell me that if you did not have an OEM, albeit used, woofer, that I would have had to PAY for a comparable replacement despite my sub still being under warranty! I think that is about the point I lost it during our conversation.
4. I did already talk to tech support before I ever called you (sales), and the e-mail chain I have inserted proves I did. It also shows that they (tech support) state “a new woofer will work fine with your enclosure” when I was willing to BUY a new one. So what changed when it needed to be replaced under warranty? Again, it comes down to monetary issues.

I have supported and loved my Hsu subwoofer since I got it 5 years ago, have recommended Hsu to multiple people, and respected Hsu tremendously as a leader in subwoofer design….until now. I think the sheer fact that I still have this subwoofer and want to keep using it speaks volumes for Hsu. I am just so disillusioned by how this was handled, that it makes me sick, literally. I feel like I was betrayed by a good friend.

I would however, like to apologize to all Outlaws and guests on this forum for having to view such an ugly conversation (especially Scott and others involved intricately with Outlaw design, manufacturing, etc.) because my post was never meant to be inflammatory toward Outlaw or Hsu in general or to ruin anyone’s opinions of their (Outlaw or Hsu) subs. I never wanted to be known as a brand basher, and I have NEVER said anything bad about Hsu’s products. This was ENTIRELY a customer service/support issue, and that was it. I never advised people to not buy Hsu! Posters/viewers can make their own decisions based on my experience. I am not trying to lead a rebellion or anything! I have bought items from companies when others have had bad experiences posted as reviews. Bad experiences happen, it just happens I was on the disgruntled end this time.

SO…after saying all that, I will answer your question, with a question, and let you decide what the outcome should be. After this, I am done with this conversation, Hsu, etc. due to the ridiculousness of this fight. I will report that it has been settled to the BBB and we are done. You will be happy, I will be happy, everybody will be happy! I will continue to view this thread, but will no longer contribute to it. If anyone wants to stay out of it publicly, feel free to PM me with any comments. I am sorry to waste everyone’s time with my issue.

So here is MY question to YOU Pete:
If the ONLY reason I was not sent a new woofer was due to monetary reasons, I would like option #2. This was never about money on my end. I was disgruntled by the apparent lack of concern over my concerns about the replacement.
BUT
If you honestly did only have my best interest in mind by sending me a woofer that is the only one that will work with my enclosure, then I will keep the replacement and forget about all of this.

Sincerely, Eric

Gonk, as always, you are the consumate professional of rationality and civility. I too would have liked to keep the remainder of this private, thus not posting about the e-mail Pete sent me. But since it is here....

Pete, that is great to here you had good intentions, but yes, it did not come off that way at all. I do not think you realize how hurt I was after our conversation, probably as hurt as you were when you heard from "a high profile source" about my OP here. I actually had a crappy weekend after I received your e-mail, that is now public, that was minus a few details left out (such as how you knew I posted here). I wanted to keep the remainder of this private, but since it is now public, let's be cival and finally settle this privately. Please either PM me or e-mail me (the same anyway) with any further comments on how to settle this.

Thanks, Eric

Hi Eric,

When I spoke with our technicians after the phone call, they told me that we provided the original VTF-2 driver (with a protective coating around the surround) primarily because it was more optimal for your unit. In general, unless there are no other alternatives, we try to fix or replace items to the original specifications of the unit.

If you really don’t feel comfortable with the 10” replacement woofer after the explanation I gave earlier about the protective coating on the woofer and about the woofer being optimal for the original VTF-2, then I can discuss with techsupport and we can send you a brand new woofer (albeit geared for the latest subwoofers).

It’s been quite stressful for us too in having to read about this on the internet and read about complaints with BBB, so let’s just try to get this resolved and move on with our lives.

Please let me know if you want a brand new woofer mailed out to you. You can simply respond to my email so that we don't have to go back and forth on the internet.

Sincerely,

Pete

I use twin HSU VTF-2 MK2 subs. Their support is very good, just like outlaws. I have been helped by Pete, he even knows my Voice. I have been called by Dr. Hsu from his personal Cell phone.

Liz

A public forum such as this is a tool not only to advertise for a product, but to air differences.
We as consumers put great trust in ID companies, we have no showroom to view a product. We go off what we read over the internet to base our buying decissions. Most off us can't afford to purchase multiple subs to do comparrisons, sending those back ( we eat the frieght ) that don't make the cut. I would say most who buy ID keep there product unless extremly disatisfied based on cost to ship back. The advantage goes to the ID company on this.
.A public airing of differences like this,gives us a better understanding of risk's and benifits of buying off the internet.
It is through this medium that I decide which product I will purchase, not from a publications review of a product.
It is a doubled edge sword with the advantage going to the consumer, as it should.

Hello fellow gunslingers,

I am happy to report that Eric and I have resolved everything in an amicable fashion, and we are ready to move on and learn from this experience. Thanks to Eric for being so considerate and thoughtful about this, and thanks to everyone for all the kind words and support.

Sincerely,

Pete
Hsu Research

Thanks for the follow-up, Pete - very glad to see a resolution that is satisfactory to both parties.

Eric are you satisfied with the outcome? Pete is satisfied but he wasn't the one with the original issue. Don't need details just confirmation the manufacturer stood behind their product.

Yes, I e-mailed Pete yesterday and told him I will keep the woofer sent to me.

I think most of the problem stemmed from mis-communication between tech support, Pete, and myself. I had one e-mail string with tech support when I had planned on purchasing a replacement before I knew it was still under warranty, but then had a separate conversation/e-mail string with Pete. Pete can verify, but I do not think he even knew about the e-mails with tech support. Regardless, we had both expected a new woofer sent from the last conversation I had with him before I received the replacement. When I called about receiving an apparently used woofer, Pete really did not know the reason it was sent, but I think he assumed it was partially due to cost and partially because it was the only OEM woofer they still had. It mostly came across to me though as a cost issue, re-inforced by the fact I was given no option to get a new woofer (non-OEM). That was where the conversation was left which is mostly what made me angry.

After e-mailing Pete the last few days and seeing his concern here, I do believe tech support was just trying to give me the closest thing possible to what I had originally. That and the fact that Pete did offer to send a new woofer if I wanted made me feel better. That was all I really wanted in the first place, was the choice. I was mostly irritated with the phone coversation, that went no where, when I called with concerns and also was obviously irritated about the woofer as well, but that snowballed after I did not like the reasons given to me why I received that instead of what I was told I should expect.

I did complement Hsu and Pete on the fact that their swift and passionate response, although somewhat upsetting to me at first, does show that Hsu does care about it's customers and about what others think and say about them. I told them they do have a very high BBB rating of (AA), and that the only other company I had ever filed a complaint on had a horrible rating (CCC), and it showed, beacuse that company could have cared less about my complaint. So I think we both learned from this. We are on good terms and Pete told me to call anytime if I have any problems with the replacement.

I do agree with Keta though who mentioned that the woofer probably should have been cleaned a bit more before being sent out. That may have made me feel less concerned when I opened it. Appearances always make a first impression, and despite it not changing how it works, I am just one of those people who likes things looking nice and clean.

Thanks to all those that read this and commented one way or the other. It is great to have a forum like this, not only for Outlaw specific products, but also to discuss other vendors that a lot of us use. Everyone's comments were very well thought out and stated. I frequent a car forum that is nothing like this, in fact the exact opposite. Mostly a lot of "kids" bashing everything. So this is very refreshing. Thanks again to everybody.

Eric

I'm glad things worked out Eric.
I'm pleased with the support that you got here. In dealing with internet merchants, the only real recourse we have is to each other.
I'm also pleased with Hsu's response. It makes me feel more comfortable about considering Hsu products in the future.
I think the lesson to be learned here is that when a customer feels that he has been poorly treated, he has.

Agreed

Nothing like a happy ending.