The short version of this question is: Has anyone found a reliable DVD recorder that they're happy with and would recommend as a VCR substitute? If so, what do you recommend and why?

I've already searched the Outlaw Saloon and there doesn't appear to be a recent topic on this matter that addresses the current crop of DVD recorders.

Here's the long version with details:

I've been researching DVD Recorders on-and-off over the last few months. I'm in a quandary since (a) my VCRs are getting old; (b) it's hard to find anyone who repairs VCRs these days; and (c) you can't buy a new, high-quality, stand-alone VCR anymore. Hence I'm looking for a good DVD recorder to take over the VCR's role in my home theater and for dubbing some videotapes to DVD.

I've read the Consumer Reports review in their November 2007 issue and initially focused on a close examination of the top-rated models:

DVD-only: Samsung DVD-AR650, Panasonic DMR-EZ17 and DMR-EZ27

DVD/VCR Combos: Panasonic DMR-E47V, Samsung DVD-VR357

Since then I've also looked at the Samsung DVD-R155, DVD-R160 (both DVD Only) and the Toshiba D-R400 (DVD Only) and D-VR600 (DVD/VCR Combo).

I've downloaded and read all the manuals available (the Toshiba manuals aren't available online).

What has made the choice so difficult is the following:

1. Other than the Toshibas, most get middling to poor reviews. In reading the customer-submitted reviews on sites including Amazon, Best Buy, and Circuit City one finds things like:

• The Panasonic models are subject to frequent freezes. The Panasonics all contain HD Tuners, which makes them about $100 more expensive than tunerless models. As I use Dish Network, a tunerless model is my preference.
• The Samsung models seem to last about 4-6 months, then die. There are numerous rants about poor customer service from Samsung.
• Performance of all the models is spotty. In particular, the machines all seem to have a significant lag time between when one presses a command on the remote control and when it is actually executed by the machine. The Samsung remotes seem particularly finicky w.r.t. the angle at which they're used relative to the player. They all appear to be an exercise in extreme patience.

I've tried to take all of the customer-submitted reviews with a grain of salt: some are obvious slams from customers who either didn't research the product or can't read a manual, but when one sees multiple, well-written reviews citing things like DOA machines, freezes, and early death after the 90-day warranty, one can't simply brush them off.

2. While the Toshiba's tend to get the better reviews, they don't support recording to DL (dual layer) media. As a result, if you want to record a long sporting event (e.g. F1 races, which sometimes run to nearly three hours) you have to use LP speed. Virtually all the reports I've read indicate that — regardless of make or model — recording at anything less than SP speed results in "unwatchable" video, esp. for sporting events with fast motion. I've been unable to confirm this myself, but the number of reviews complaining about video quality at anything less than SP are compelling. Likewise, the Toshiba's can't record to DVD-RAM. The lack of DL support also presents a problem in dubbing tapes longer than two hours: these would have to be recorded at LP speed.

3. While some of the machines, like the Panasonic and Samsung, support DL media, there's no support (and apparently no media available yet either) for DVD±RW DL (Rewriteable Dual Layer), meaning if you want to use DL media to record a two-plus hour program at SP speed, it has to be DVD±R DL and you're committing a disc to the programming.

4. I went to Circuit City and was able to persuade one of their sales folks to let me "test drive" both the Panasonic DMR-EZ47V and Samsung DVD-VR357, both DVD/VCR Combos. I brought a couple of VHS tapes with me to see how well they'd track (both were recorded in high-end Sony VCRs and played well at home). To my surprise, the Panasonic did a lousy job of tracking the tapes, while the Samsung played them perfectly. I've wanted to test the Toshiba D-VR600 (another combo unit) but these appear be discontinued: they're virtually out-of-stock everywhere except a few places online. Given the number of returns cited for all of the DVD recorders, my inclination has been to buy locally vs. online to avoid the potential hassle of a return via RMA vs. simply taking it back to the store.

5. My initial thought has been to go with a Combo unit as my VCRs are both pretty old. One (Sony SLV-555UC) has been back to the shop three times all for the same repair (it's a good shop, so they're standing behind their work vs. nickel-and-diming me) and the second (Sony SLV-940HF) is now showing signs of its age. However, in consulting with some VCR repair folks, the latest VCR mechanisms are considered inferior to those in my current VCRs. Their opinion is that if my VCRs could be brought back to near-new condition, I'd probably get better tape dubs from them than using a DVD/VCR Combo recorder. Customer-submitted reviews on Combo units have been about as mixed as those for the DVD-only units.

I seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place: go with a Toshiba despite its lack of DL support, or roll the dice with Samsung.

Any advice from the community would be welcomed! TIA!

PS: Apologies for the long post, but I thought the details of my quest might be helpful to others considering a DVD recorder.

I've got an older Panasonic that we still use some ( DMR-E80 ) - it's worked out well for us, even after four and a half years of service. I originally purchased it for archiving VHS tapes (old home videos, some going back to the early 80's). We also used it quite a bit for time shifting TV using the built-in hard drive. I don't know that I'd be very interested in time shifting via DVD media, but time shifting via the hard drive worked very nicely. However, I've scaled back our use of it since we got a DVR cable box last May. At this point, all we use the old Panny for is copying the occasional VHS tape (very rarely) and playing back some odds and ends still sitting on the hard drive. In many cases, I've even started using my single DVD-RAM disc (the disc provided with my Panny back in 2003) to move data straight from the hard drive to my PC, where I use some software there to author DVD's and burn on the internal DVD drive. I also use an IEEE-1394 card in my PC to archive video from our MiniDV camera to DVD.

Considering the offerings available for both VHS and recordable DVD hardware today, I'd recommend against using either for time shifting. That particular duty seems to have become the domain of various hard drive-based DVR's, which do the job well. It sounds like a new Toshiba would be the best bet for archiving old VHS tapes from your existing VHS decks (a duty for which the absence of dual-layer support isn't going to be an issue - besides, single layer media is a lot less expensive). Depending on how many tapes you have, you might even consider a video capture card and computer to archive the tapes onto DVD.

I am very interested in this thread. I have a Panasonic DMR-E55 which we've used for yrs to archive old family VHS tapes and some of-air material. But it does not have a hard drive.

So I would appreciate advice in this regard. Specifically I would like to be able to take clips from various sources including DVDs whether on a HD machine or separate source and "assemble" a program.
Yes I'm aware of capture cards and computer programs but prefer to use the machines themselves.

So any input from those with HD machines allowing DVD copy to HD and then back, would be appreciated
TIA

Hi, gonk!

You were wise to by a hard drive-based unit when you did. Today, nothing like your DMR-E80 is available. All such HDD-based DVRs with DVD burning were pulled either late in 2006 or early in 2007. Today, only DVD Recorders are available. I've wondered if this was either (a) a result of the TiVo vs. Echostar patent suit; (b) a mechanically simpler and cheaper solution given the evolution of DVD technology; or (c) simply another move by the industry to make it more difficult for people to simply record anything, e.g. save a movie off HBO vs. forcing you to buy the DVD.

I've seen some used units like your DMR-E80 available for sale, selling for far more than their original list price! It's a testament to how good the technology was. Alas, it's no more and I'm still kicking myself for waiting too long!

A TiVo-like DVR isn't an option for us, even the Dish Network DVR. First, we've abandoned landlines: we went all-cellular last year as we were using our cell phones for all calls. All DVRs require a landline and I'm not going to get a landline again just for a DVR. Second, I'm not sanguine about how the personal data collected by DVRs is being used or may be used in the future. The Privacy Foundation wrote a very disturbing report concerning TiVo back in 2001: it's still available here . While even the author of the report has a TiVo, TiVo's practices make me uncomfortable.

Therefore, my only option at present is one of the current crop of DVD recorders, all of which appear to leave much to be desired.

If the reports of poor video quality at LP and lower speeds are true, then the lack of DL support in Toshiba models may be a problem. With DL support, one can record a four-hour event at SP speed, albeit there will be a tiny gap in the recording at the layer change. The Consumer Reports review I cited noted that "A 2-to-4 hour setting is a good compromise between quality and capacity," implying LP might be AOK, but their review slammed all models for poor video at the EP setting, whereas I can get acceptable video at EP speed from my VCRs. My primary use for EP on the VCRs has been time-shifting long hearings recorded off C-SPAN.

I have a large collection of movies and other programs taped off cable and satellite that I'd like to transfer to DVD. While I've been gradually buying the DVDs of my all-time favorite films and TV series (we own over 160 DVDs), I still have a large number of VHS tapes (roughly 250), and many of the programs aren't available on DVD. Many are over two hours long, hence they'd have to be recorded at LP on the Toshiba. I suspect the quality will be degraded from the already less-than-DVD quality of a VHS tape at SP speed. The other issue I want to address is my remaining collection of Laser Discs: I've probably got fifty or so discs that haven't suffered "laser rot" I'd like to preserve before my Pioneer CLD-D702 kicks the bucket.

I have considered a DIY DVR approach using a Mac MIni and Elgato's eyeTV; the eyeTV would also give me a way of transferring the video to my Macs from which I could burn DVDs, but again that's a lot of time, tedium, and extra cost compared to a DVD Recorder.

While the latest Samsung products meet all of my requirements, the user reviews are off-putting, leaving me with Toshiba as the only logical choice.

Perhaps I should just roll the dice and pick up one of the Toshiba units and see if I can live with its limitations. For around $100 it's not that big a gamble for a DVD-only unit, though, given the age of my VCRs and the problems they're exhibiting, I'd probably prefer to give the Combo unit a spin.

I'm hoping to hear from some other fellow Outlaws who can comment on the current crop of DVD recorders.

There are some non-TiVo DVR options, I think. At least, there used to be. They lacked the convenience of automatic recording of shows, but they also avoided the monthly fees and dial-up connectivity of TiVo type units. Of course, those may have joined hard drive-equipped DVD recorders in oblivion, as I haven't really heard much about them lately.

As for recording quality at higher compression levels, I know that I saw almost no difference between the 1-hour and 2-hour recording modes on my Panasonic, but the 4-hour mode started to introduce visible artifacts that I would not want to watch very much and the 6-hour mode really went down the tubes. It's different from LP and EP on VCR's, as it is a different form of artifact (digital compression looks nothing like the usual quirks of VHS).

Does anyone have experience/comments about the Philips 3575H?

It was cited in the Consumer Reports review I noted earlier. While it is a HDD (hard disk drive) unit — probably the only one left for sale in the US, I haven't considered it because (a) the Philips products received the lowest marks of all models in the review; (b) it was rated as having the worst DVD playback; and (c) the report erroneously (based on subsequent research) said it did not support recording to DVD-RW. I've downloaded the manual from the Philips site and will give it a read.

Read the reviews on Amazon. While there are many positive reviews, there are also several reports of DOA units, units suffering "infant mortality," as well as the usual frustrations with copy-protected broadcasts, poor remote, etc.

Apparently, these were available at Wal-Mart, but a search of Wal-Mart's web site does not find the DVDR3575H/37. Wal-Mart lists the DVDR3505/37, which is a DVD Recorder — no HDD.

The Philips DVDR3575H/37 mentioned by nfaguys appears to be the last one available and may be hard to find. According to one review I read, Wal-Mart had them, but apparently no more. Amazon shows TigerDirect selling them. Not sure I'd buy this online given that there are more than a few returns cited due to DOA or "infant mortality" (dead within 30-90 days). Wal-Mart now lists the DVDR3505/37, which is a DVD recorder like the Panasonic, Samsung, and Toshiba units I've been considering.

Consumer Reports wasn't keen on the Philips boxes vs. competition in their review. However, the user-submitted reviews for the DVDR3575H/37 that I read on Amazon were generally very favorable.

Sometimes I wonder about Consumer Reports: they were very high on the Panasonic DVD recorders, but the user-submitted reviews I read were very negative, e.g. freezes aplenty.

Understood. The four-hour mode is what Toshiba (and other, if memory serves) as LP mode. If you want to burn over 2 hours to a DVD at SP speed, the unit has to support DL.

There were also some DVR's that were hard drive only (very similar to TiVo) that included modems for downloading program guides, but that did not require the phone line to operate if you were willing to manually set up timers. Panasonic made a line called the Showstopper (a few relevent links here , here , here , and here ) that used the same OS as the units made by ReplayTV, who both developed the OS and built some hardware of their own (links here , here , here , here , and here ). Neither are still in production today, but there appears to be a community of owners and fairly active used market. According to this EFF page , ReplayTV was forced out due to legal pressure (we're not supposed to be able to skip those lovely commercials). ReplayTV has apparently refocused on PC software (see their current site for more on that).

My thanks to GES and gonk.

For recording to HD my dishnetwork 721 does a good job. The reason for having a separate HD recorder would be to assemble programs from previously recorded material as well as some clips from the dish HD.

I don't need a TIVO-type, and....where I live there is one TV station, though I could get networks on dish.

Yes, I recall Replay, et. al. I'm not interested in the "used" market. As I noted earlier, I've seen used machines, e.g. Panasonics like yours, selling for more — often far more — than their original list price.

I'm still hoping for some feedback to my original question:
I've got to believe there are some fellow Outlaws who've taken the plunge on one of the current crop of DVD recorders, either to transfer their VHS libraries to DVD, save content from their DVRs, or as a VCR replacement.

However, maybe I've just researched this to death and others have come to the same conclusions that I have: the current crop is generally wanting, quality and reliability are spotty, and the choices aren't getting any better. One is basically rolling the dice on any of them, albeit the Toshiba units seem to fare a bit better in the consumer-submitted reviews.

From what I've read in the various user-submitted reviews, complex editing like you describe isn't a easy task on any of the DVD recorders. On some, it's relatively straightforward to do things like define chapters to exclude the commercial breaks in a recording before finalizing the disk, but beyond that the reviews lead me to believe that editing ranges from the tedious to the impossible. Even tasks like labeling chapters seem to be fraught with tedium, especially given the generally poor reviews the remotes receive.

You'd probably have to carefully plan the order in which the content was burned from the DVR to the DVD. I suspect it would be easier to do as much of the editing as possible on the DVR first. The Philips DVDR3575H/37 can copy from non-commercial DVD to the HDD, but I don't know if that's something your DMR-E55 can do. I also believe you'd need a DVD recorder that supports DVD+R/RW as editing appears more limited with other formats.

Based on what I know today — from reading, not experience — if I were to undertake such a task, I'd burn the content to DVD from the DVR, then rip the DVD on one of my Macs, convert the desired video to QuickTime, use editing software like iMovie HD or Final Cut Pro to assemble the content into the desired flow, then burn a disc of the results. There'd probably be some loss in quality along the way, so whether or not this would produce a good result remains to be seen.

I've done editing like that both on my DMR-E80 and on a PC - it's worlds easier on a PC, if you can get the content there...